Rules, Conventions, and Groin Targeting

[Kilkenny]

[Wait a minute so if i follow the rules and hit someone in the groin im a dick, but CAers that are following the rules are not? Interesting.

Yup.

Wait what? Why?

Because people who hit people in the groin are dicks. As are people who hit people in the armpit as a general course of fighting. As are people who do that stupid "behidn the back through the legs" thrust thing to people they don't know. There are a lot of dickish things that are legal. Doesn't make em any less dickish.

Ya there are people that shoot missile weapons too.

Balin
Aten 101
Fighters not Targets

see what i did there?

We all know you hate CA.

Do you suppose you could not bring it up everyplace, all of the time ?

It's seriously coloring my impression of you and I doubt I'm alone.

[Maeryk]

Not sure i understand your question.

Lemme help. Where do you think the most serious injuries we get as a group occur?

(as a direct result of combat.. I'm not talking about stepping in a chuckhole, or getting your pinky broken cause you don't wear gauntlets)

[Balin50]

[

yup. You made a strawman. Nice job, though the legs could use some more stuffing.

You can consider the folks who shoot arrows dicks all you want. I don't. You didn't ask WHY people don't consider archers dicks, you asked why people considered YOU a dick for targeting groins.

learn to ask the right question.[/quote]


I don't recall asking either of those questions. If you hang it out i will chop it off.

Balin

[Cisco]

edited: removed my post

[Maeryk]

[

yup. You made a strawman. Nice job, though the legs could use some more stuffing.

You can consider the folks who shoot arrows dicks all you want. I don't. You didn't ask WHY people don't consider archers dicks, you asked why people considered YOU a dick for targeting groins.

learn to ask the right question.

I don't recall asking either of those questions. If you hang it out i will chop it off.

Balin[/quote]

And EVERY combat archer I know says "if you are unprotected, I will shoot you in the face" I fail to see much of a difference.

[Nissan Maxima]

First rule of SCA combat Don't break your toys.

[Count Johnathan]

[

yup. You made a strawman. Nice job, though the legs could use some more stuffing.

You can consider the folks who shoot arrows dicks all you want. I don't. You didn't ask WHY people don't consider archers dicks, you asked why people considered YOU a dick for targeting groins.

learn to ask the right question.

I don't recall asking either of those questions. If you hang it out i will chop it off.

Balin

And EVERY combat archer I know says "if you are unprotected, I will shoot you in the face" I fail to see much of a difference.[/quote]

Ok lets clear the air, I asked why Balin is a dick for doing something that is within the rules that some people have an issue with and combat archers are not dicks for doing something that is within the rules that some people have an issue with.

So again why is that? I fail to see the difference as well. I really am curious. Please enlighten me.

[Maeryk]

Because getting sent back to res point and potentially losing the ability to have kids are not analagous in most people's minds?

Like Balin, we get it, you don't like CA. So don't fight in CA battles. Why ruin it for the people who like CA so you can have all no archery all the time?

Isn't there a balance there somewhere?

[Balin50]

[

yup. You made a strawman. Nice job, though the legs could use some more stuffing.

You can consider the folks who shoot arrows dicks all you want. I don't. You didn't ask WHY people don't consider archers dicks, you asked why people considered YOU a dick for targeting groins.

learn to ask the right question.

I don't recall asking either of those questions. If you hang it out i will chop it off.

Balin

And EVERY combat archer I know says "if you are unprotected, I will shoot you in the face" I fail to see much of a difference.[/quote]


One is a gun the other a melee weapon.

Balin
Aten 101
Fighters not Targets

[Cisco]

Ok lets clear the air, I asked why Balin is a dick for doing something that is within the rules that some people have an issue with and combat archers are not dicks for doing something that is within the rules that some people have an issue with.

I might be misunderstaning here, but your use of vague terms makes me think your statement is as follows:

"Balin is considered a jerk for cup-targetting. Cup targetting is technically legal (except possibly where considered against custom in certain kingdoms).

Archers shoot people in the face. Some people don't like combat archers for numerous reasons, their (the CA participants) participation makes them jerks.

In my (Johno's) opinion, the two are roughly equal."

...really? Am I misunderstanding something here?

edited: I hate pronouns

[audax]

First rule of SCA combat Don't break your toys.

And the second is Don't be a dick.

[Count Johnathan]

Ok lets clear the air, I asked why Balin is a dick for doing something that is within the rules that some people have an issue with and combat archers are not dicks for doing something that is within the rules that some people have an issue with.

I might be misunderstaning here, but your use of vague terms makes me think your statement is as follows:

"Balin is considered a jerk for cup-targetting. Cup targetting is technically legal (except possibly where considered against custom in certain kingdoms).

Archers shoot people in the face. Some people don't like combat archers for numerous reasons, their (the CA participants) participation makes them jerks.

In my (Johno's) opinion, the two are roughly equal."

...really? Am I misunderstanding something here?

edited: I hate pronouns

Yeah that's it. I don't think the potential for losing an eye or being killed for real or having arrows strike kids or other people trying to bring us water is very cool either but I guess Maeryk doesn't care about that.

Don't get me wrong Balin is a jerk LOL

Edit to add - and it's not their participation, it's them using a bow. Thay can participate all they want. Shooting makes them jerks while they are doing it.

[Maeryk]

Yeah that's it. I don't think the potential for losing an eye or being killed for real or having arrows strike kids or other people trying to bring us water is very cool either but I guess Maeryk doesn't care about that.

You could, you know, ask how I _FEEL_ about that, rather than assuming, but that would be silly now, wouldn't it?

I didn't address whether CA people were dicks or not. I addressed whether targeting cups is.

How many people have been killed for real by arrows, or lost an eye so far? And WTF are waterbearers doing in range during combat?

I can give you a list of people who have had moderate to severe groin injury due to misplacement or failure of armour.

[Balin50]

Not sure i understand your question.

Lemme help. Where do you think the most serious injuries we get as a group occur?

(as a direct result of combat.. I'm not talking about stepping in a chuckhole, or getting your pinky broken cause you don't wear gauntlets)

How many of those injuries are caused by substandard armor? Though i do think our gorget minimums should also have to cover the collerbones. Dog collars are not very safe IMO.

Balin

[spearweasel]

Melee vs. Archery

1) If a fighter in melee deliberately tries to whack or stab me in the groin, I will have a low opinion of him as a person, even though I will take the shot as valid.

2) If an archer tens of yards away is able to deliberately hit me in the dingding with an arrow, I will admire his skill. If I see him making a habit of jimmysniping, see #1.

They both might qualify as dicks.

[Maeryk]

Not sure i understand your question.

Lemme help. Where do you think the most serious injuries we get as a group occur?

(as a direct result of combat.. I'm not talking about stepping in a chuckhole, or getting your pinky broken cause you don't wear gauntlets)

How many of those injuries are caused by substandard armor? Though i do think our gorget minimums should also have to cover the collerbones. Dog collars are not very safe IMO.

Balin

It shouldn't matter. The armour standard we fight at is bare minimums. you shouldn't be hitting hard enough to break someones collar bone, period.

Doing so is a serious lack of control on your part. Not the fault of the armor. (or lack thereof).

Do you hit someone in the forearm as hard as the side of the helmet?

[Balin50]

[Wait a minute so if i follow the rules and hit someone in the groin im a dick, but CAers that are following the rules are not? Interesting.

Yup.

Wait what? Why?

Because people who hit people in the groin are dicks. As are people who hit people in the armpit as a general course of fighting. As are people who do that stupid "behidn the back through the legs" thrust thing to people they don't know. There are a lot of dickish things that are legal. Doesn't make em any less dickish.

Ya there are people that shoot missile weapons too.

Balin
Aten 101
Fighters not Targets

see what i did there?

We all know you hate CA.

Do you suppose you could not bring it up everyplace, all of the time ?

It's seriously coloring my impression of you and I doubt I'm alone.

Why?

Balin

PS there are several thread i am on that i have not brought up CA. FYI

[Balin50]

Not sure i understand your question.

Lemme help. Where do you think the most serious injuries we get as a group occur?

(as a direct result of combat.. I'm not talking about stepping in a chuckhole, or getting your pinky broken cause you don't wear gauntlets)

How many of those injuries are caused by substandard armor? Though i do think our gorget minimums should also have to cover the collerbones. Dog collars are not very safe IMO.

Balin

It shouldn't matter. The armour standard we fight at is bare minimums. you shouldn't be hitting hard enough to break someones collar bone, period.

Doing so is a serious lack of control on your part. Not the fault of the armor. (or lack thereof).

Do you hit someone in the forearm as hard as the side of the helmet?

I hit hard take soft. I hit with sufficient force (or a least try to) all the time. Did you read where i thought that the gorget minimums are to light and should be upgraded? No maybe you should.


Balin

[Cisco]

Yeah that's it. I don't think the potential for losing an eye or being killed for real or having arrows strike kids or other people trying to bring us water is very cool either but I guess Maeryk doesn't care about that.

.....

Edit to add - and it's not their participation, it's them using a bow. Thay can participate all they want. Shooting makes them jerks while they are doing it.

Ok, fair enough. I think you are more concerned than is reasonable. We can put up the safety netting that I've seen around CA battles. We can put the fighters further away or create firing directions that are safe (all of these I see done on a regular basis when CA is involved). In my opinion, improving safety instead of removing someone's fun is usually the preferred option.

But I see your point. I think it flawed, but I understand it.

[Cisco]

It shouldn't matter. The armour standard we fight at is bare minimums. you shouldn't be hitting hard enough to break someones collar bone, period.

Doing so is a serious lack of control on your part. Not the fault of the armor. (or lack thereof).

Do you hit someone in the forearm as hard as the side of the helmet?

I'm curious as to where you are from Maeryk. I'm from Meridies (commonly accepted as the lightest calibrated kingdom), and we've had broken ribs. It happens sometimes. It's not necessarily excessive (I'm sure there are cases where it is).

Sometimes it happens. And ribs (I could be wrong here, for what it's worth) are a lot harder to break than forearms or collarbones. I'm using ribs as an example...I've heard directly from multiple people (internationally) that have had bones broken from contact (not falling down and stuff like that).

[Count Johnathan]

Yeah that's it. I don't think the potential for losing an eye or being killed for real or having arrows strike kids or other people trying to bring us water is very cool either but I guess Maeryk doesn't care about that.

You could, you know, ask how I _FEEL_ about that, rather than assuming, but that would be silly now, wouldn't it?

I didn't address whether CA people were dicks or not. I addressed whether targeting cups is.....

Yes you did. You said "You can consider the folks who shoot arrows dicks all you want. I don't."

Come on man.

[Maeryk]

Yeah that's it. I don't think the potential for losing an eye or being killed for real or having arrows strike kids or other people trying to bring us water is very cool either but I guess Maeryk doesn't care about that.

You could, you know, ask how I _FEEL_ about that, rather than assuming, but that would be silly now, wouldn't it?

I didn't address whether CA people were dicks or not. I addressed whether targeting cups is.....

Yes you did. You said "You can consider the folks who shoot arrows dicks all you want. I don't."

Come on man.

No, YOU come on.

I said I don't consider CA's dicks.

YOU are the one that interpreted that to mean I don't care about blind people, or dead people, or women and children, or the heartbreak of psoriasis.

It should be done as SAFELY as humanly possible. However, there is inherant risk in our game, and claiming that one particular segment has to be completely bubblewrapped (thus rendering it impossible) while the rest of it is dangerous is a back door, disingenuous approach to bannination of CA.

At least be honest about your goals. You don't care much about safety, to read your posts. You care that they be made so light, and so slow, that you can avoid them, and/or want to ban them entirely.

Guess what? People in period shot arrows at people in wars. Hell, they even did it at grand tournaments! Now that the whole "it's not period" argument has been shot down, suddenly it's "well, unless it's 12 feet across, painted pink, and made by nerf, it's unsafe" is the argument being put forth by the anti-CA community.

So, once again, I said I don't consider CA to be dickish. I never weighed in, before this post, on the _Safety concerns_ you claimed I didn't care about.

Apples and hand grenades.

[Maeryk]

It shouldn't matter. The armour standard we fight at is bare minimums. you shouldn't be hitting hard enough to break someones collar bone, period.

Doing so is a serious lack of control on your part. Not the fault of the armor. (or lack thereof).

Do you hit someone in the forearm as hard as the side of the helmet?

I'm curious as to where you are from Maeryk. I'm from Meridies (commonly accepted as the lightest calibrated kingdom), and we've had broken ribs. It happens sometimes. It's not necessarily excessive (I'm sure there are cases where it is).

Sometimes it happens. And ribs (I could be wrong here, for what it's worth) are a lot harder to break than forearms or collarbones. I'm using ribs as an example...I've heard directly from multiple people (internationally) that have had bones broken from contact (not falling down and stuff like that).

East. And yes, sometimes it DOES happen.

However, the "Well, if you got broken you aren't wearing enough armour" excuse is a weak one, and one usually employed by people with a lack of control and skill.

At least, that's been my experience.

[Balin50]

It shouldn't matter. The armour standard we fight at is bare minimums. you shouldn't be hitting hard enough to break someones collar bone, period.

Doing so is a serious lack of control on your part. Not the fault of the armor. (or lack thereof).

Do you hit someone in the forearm as hard as the side of the helmet?

I'm curious as to where you are from Maeryk. I'm from Meridies (commonly accepted as the lightest calibrated kingdom), and we've had broken ribs. It happens sometimes. It's not necessarily excessive (I'm sure there are cases where it is).

Sometimes it happens. And ribs (I could be wrong here, for what it's worth) are a lot harder to break than forearms or collarbones. I'm using ribs as an example...I've heard directly from multiple people (internationally) that have had bones broken from contact (not falling down and stuff like that).

East. And yes, sometimes it DOES happen.

However, the "Well, if you got broken you aren't wearing enough armour" excuse is a weak one, and one usually employed by people with a lack of control and skill.

At least, that's been my experience.

I never used lack of armor as anything. i asked how many injuries are caused by armor failure or substandard armor.


Balin

[Thorstenn]

Ya, I phrased it wrong. 4 days with no sleeping pills will do that to me, sorry. I will not aim for those 3 spots no matter whats on the line or how thick they might seam to be at the moment.
I think you new my intent though.

Thor.

There are 3 places I will not target on my opponent.

1. Cup
2. Neck
3. Collarbone

This I teach my squires as well. If I cannot best my opponent without targeting these 3 spots they are no longer worth my time for we are simply not playing the same game.

Thor.

Wait if you can't beat them without those shots they are not worth your time?

Balin

[Balin50]

Ya, I phrased it wrong. 4 days with no sleeping pills will do that to me, sorry. I will not aim for those 3 spots no matter whats on the line or how thick they might seam to be at the moment.
I think you new my intent though.

Thor.

There are 3 places I will not target on my opponent.

1. Cup
2. Neck
3. Collarbone

This I teach my squires as well. If I cannot best my opponent without targeting these 3 spots they are no longer worth my time for we are simply not playing the same game.

Thor.

Wait if you can't beat them without those shots they are not worth your time?

Balin

I did think i knew but did not want to assume

Balin

[mordreth]

[quote="Æiric Ørvender"]I’ve only been “cuppedâ€

[Thorstenn]

All safety and armor aside, It's only a matter of time until somebody dies on the field or shortly after from a blood clot from a bruise period.

Sorry to bring this up but I feel its in line with this. If this offends some I am sorry.
Count ? Sarnac ? Died from a pulmonary embolism, (NOT caused by combat)
Blood clot's can be formed from bruising they break loose and hit your brain your dead, hit your lung and you are likely without treatment to die, with treatment you can still die. (witch is what happened to Sarnac)

Luckily I did not die from my broken ribs and bruised lung at last Pennsic or I would not be able to sit hear and listen to all these threads about CA going to hurt somebody sooner or later. And I do know somebody that actually has been hurt by CA (eye injury) he was my squire brother. It was a freak accident. So were my ribs.

The potential for serious injury or death is there so we continuously review the rules to see if there reasonably safe. This is as it should be for ALL marshaled activities. REASONABLY safe under most conditions is not the same as always safe. The only way to make it safe all the time is to not do it at all.

Thor.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

My accidently delivered cup shots come while fighting spear in tight melees (castle battles are classic). Shield men often leave their bellies open ideal for a low spear shot. I aim for the thigh or the belly. I get more that the occasional cup (they move, spear gets pushed, curve of the body moves it). It has been my observation that I do more hurt to my noble cousins hitting them in the soft under belly where is often no armour than in the well protected cup. Thing is if I throw a light shot aiming for the belly and it hits the leg it is ignored. Puts me in a bit of a bind as how hard to throw.

I would rather you hit me hard in the gut. I don't think people have the "right" to take hard to the leg and soft to the gut (or armpit, forearm, collarbone).... well, that's not true. They can take whatever they want, but they cannot bitch about it.

If you miss, you miss - this happened to me twice at WAT war. I talked to the gentles and they said it was an accident (not that in An Tir the Western "convention" is NOT on the books), so I was OK with it.

And yes, I hit people as hard in the forearm as the helmet (but I don't aim at forearms either).... except maybe at practice to demonstrate that you are putting it in a poor place, in which (rare) case, it might be a tap.

I really don't have much sympathy for people who fight in SCA minimums and complain about getting hit too hard. I have even less if you take harder to your armored spots than your unarmored.

But maybe that's why I am anti cup shot in general (other than the general uncoolness of it) ... most people here who talk about intentionally hitting people in the cup (as is their custom) do so "lightly" with the message of "coulda jacked you there..." I prefer to get jacked (but not in the cup, obviously), especially in a "battle" situation where I am running and bouncing off people and things and I don't necessarily have eye contact with every spearman in the scrum. Having someone tickle me in the jimmy with a spear just makes me feel all dirty (although better than curled up in the fetal position).

If you have me dead to rights, hit me in the armored torso or helmet. Hard. Then I will know I am dead. I get confused easy. I won't bitch if you hit me in the armpit, collarbone, back of the the thigh, or other unarmored spot.

[Cisco]

East. And yes, sometimes it DOES happen.

However, the "Well, if you got broken you aren't wearing enough armour" excuse is a weak one, and one usually employed by people with a lack of control and skill.

At least, that's been my experience.

Fair comment.

[Nissan Maxima]

If this conversation is now about how hard we should hit, my view is that if I see skin, I assume you are some peasant who has wandered onto the battlefield without knowing your danger and I will make every resonable attempt to not hit that part of you. If I can't see skin I will assume you are a warrior and have taken the responsibility to protect yourself with armour and I will hit you hard.


I like to hit hard. it is just more fun. I don't mean any harm, and indeed in thirty-six years I have injured very few of my opponents. I want you to try to hit me hard too. It is the flavor I savor.

I don't target the groin, but armpits and necks are fair game, although generally reserved for individuals who have clearly told me that I am not giving them the power they desire in shots that land elswhere.

Also, three words of advice, ignore them at your peril. "Hockey Goalie Cup"

[Malcolm_Mor]

Honest to God, I seriously cannot believe that there is a debate as to whether it is cool or not to intentionally target, with full force, a target point, legal or no, which is difficult to armor properly and has the potential for causing serious pain and permanent, quality of life debilitating injury.

We're supposed to be brothers and sisters out there, dammit. SCA, Acre, Anglesley, Tuchux - all. Jeez.

[Maeryk]

If this conversation is now about how hard we should hit, my view is that if I see skin, I assume you are some peasant who has wandered onto the battlefield without knowing your danger and I will make every resonable attempt to not hit that part of you. If I can't see skin I will assume you are a warrior and have taken the responsibility to protect yourself with armour and I will hit you hard.


I like to hit hard. it is just more fun. I don't mean any harm, and indeed in thirty-six years I have injured very few of my opponents. I want you to try to hit me hard too. It is the flavor I savor.

I don't target the groin, but armpits and necks are fair game, although generally reserved for individuals who have clearly told me that I am not giving them the power they desire in shots that land elswhere.

Also, three words of advice, ignore them at your peril. "Hockey Goalie Cup"

I think the conversation has devolved to "you are a dick if you INTENTIONALLY full power what you know to be an extremely vulnerable spot without a good reason to do so"

I know plenty of guys who could spend most of the day doing nothing but blasting cups, and putting tips into armpits and elbows.. but they don't. Cause it's a dick move.

[Malcolm_Mor]

If this conversation is now about how hard we should hit, my view is that if I see skin, I assume you are some peasant who has wandered onto the battlefield without knowing your danger and I will make every resonable attempt to not hit that part of you. If I can't see skin I will assume you are a warrior and have taken the responsibility to protect yourself with armour and I will hit you hard.


I like to hit hard. it is just more fun. I don't mean any harm, and indeed in thirty-six years I have injured very few of my opponents. I want you to try to hit me hard too. It is the flavor I savor.

I don't target the groin, but armpits and necks are fair game, although generally reserved for individuals who have clearly told me that I am not giving them the power they desire in shots that land elswhere.

Also, three words of advice, ignore them at your peril. "Hockey Goalie Cup"

Nissan, we got to mix it up some time this Pennsic. Seeings you won't let me run you over.

Philistine.

[Amanda M]

I consider aiming for the groin to be just rude. I'm female and it took me off the field to get hit in the groin intentionally by a spear. I wouldn't do it unless this was real combat and I was trying to kill someone.