CUBB blunts approved?

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:03 pm

This just came acrost my kingdome marshal list
quick question any one have pictures or specks on these?

I did a google search for "CUBB" archery blunts and could not find anything pertaining to the sca.

--------------> FROM THE SEM - Omarad <----------------
Last night I approved the use of this blunt after conferring with the
KEM's of the East and Middle.
I waited to approve the blunt due to concerns that folks will rush to
use them and may cut corners in their construction and create unsafe
arrows.
I also wanted time for the CA marshallate to understand what is coming
to them at inspections.
We all have faith that the CA community can and will adapt with
professionalism and an eye to safety.
Therefore there was no reason to delay implementation.
The CUBB tip is simply a better tip made of tried and tested approved
materials in a larger and tried and tested approved design.
The best of previously successful ideas all rolled into one.
I have assurances from both my former and current CA deputies that
these are safer and better than existing blunts while not being
revolutionary in their design and simple for folks to adapt to.
I cannot stress more the fact that safe construction of your arrows is
paramount. Do not cut corners.
Everyone have fun, play safe, and don't shoot the SEM. (or 2" tips are
next!!)
See ya at Pennsic.
-Omarad, KSCA, OP, etc...
-SEM

DeCalmont · Post by **DeCalmont** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:09 pm

It is basically a UHMW core with a Baldar styled dome attached to it.

Count Johnathan · Post by **Count Johnathan** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 9:15 pm

Damn more blunt types? OK shoot blunts at me all day long that's cool. Just don't put them on rigid shafts of fiberglass. Those things are dangerous.

fail.

DeCalmont · Post by **DeCalmont** » Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:31 pm

Well, it seems the current SEM disagrees with you then.

Christophe de Frisselle · Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:56 pm

Just saw this on the EK combat archery list. Was wondering was they were. Anyone have a picture of one?

Duchess Tessa · Post by **Duchess Tessa** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 9:55 am

Christophe de Frisselle wrote:Just saw this on the EK combat archery list. Was wondering was they were. Anyone have a picture of one?

I helped with the testing. So, I have one that I will take pictures of later tonight. I'll see if I can figure out how to post it here. My KEM already requested pictures of it, too.

Count Johnathan · Post by **Count Johnathan** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:52 am

I think it is sad that a blunt design was passed for SCA wide use with only 2 kingdoms EMs being talked to about it.

Miserable system.

I talked to the KEM of a kingdom you don't live in and we approved this design for your kingdom to use. enjoy...blech

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:03 pm

Local kingdoms are welcome to have more restrictive rulesets.

-Derian.

Sigifrith Hauknefr · Post by **Sigifrith Hauknefr** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:40 pm

Johno wrote:
I talked to the KEM of a kingdom you don't live in and we approved this design for your kingdom to use. enjoy...blech

I'm no Marshall, but I don't see any problem with this. 2 KEMs present the ammo to the SEM. He approves it so that other KEMs can use it without consulting the SEM *again* or without getting 19 KEMs in conference to approve something.

Your KEM still gets veto power in their own kingdom.

Gorm · Post by **Gorm** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:43 pm

This approval just means that Kingdoms can allow them if they wish.

It also implies that in those Kingdoms with "we allow any SCA legal type", these are allowed.

However, in those Kingdoms that have specific lists of allowed construction techniques, these aren't legal until they have been added to said lists. Presumably the individual Kingdom Earl Marshals (or their CA deputies) will only do so after satisfying themselves of the safety.

He checked with East and Mid only because of the impendingness of Pennsic, where a number of archers *could* decide to upgrade their equipment on a moment's notice (particularly if Baldar has a supply ready to be sold there).

AndreasMorgan · Post by **AndreasMorgan** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:05 pm

Hehe looks like i beat Tessa with the pic. But here it is from our KEM http://www.hawkshaven.com/cubb.jpg

Balin50 · Post by **Balin50** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:15 pm

Why round the end? Is that just for better flight? Seems like a round end would mean more glances.

Balin

Thorstenn · Post by **Thorstenn** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:18 pm

The rounded tip help stop penetration of the bars. These are solid and hit with authority.

Thor.

Balin50 wrote:Why round the end? Is that just for better flight? Seems like a round end would mean more glances.

Balin

Christophe de Frisselle · Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:47 pm

AndreasMorgan wrote:Hehe looks like i beat Tessa with the pic. But here it is from our KEM http://www.hawkshaven.com/cubb.jpg

Nifty, Guess I'll be seeing them up close soon enough.

So, what does CUBB stand for?

Baron Conal · Post by **Baron Conal** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:38 pm

anyone have a picture of one of these things?

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:40 pm

Baron Conal wrote:anyone have a picture of one of these things?

Uhh.. look up.. pick a link that ends in .jpg.

Enjoy.

Baron Conal · Post by **Baron Conal** » Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:42 pm

Maeryk wrote:
Baron Conal wrote:anyone have a picture of one of these things?

Uhh.. look up.. pick a link that ends in .jpg.

Enjoy.

oops missed that..

hmmmm..... interesting....

cost of one?

Duchess Tessa · Post by **Duchess Tessa** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:49 am

I'm posting this here to help get the word out, ASAP. We will be conducting more testing at Pennsic (not in the war points), with permission, so can gather more information.

Below is a missive from Master Erik the Middle's KDEM for CA:

Greetings: July 23, 2009

There have been several questions come up involving the upcoming Pennsic that involve Combat Archery. I have read several e-mails that were posted before I had a chance to clarify them with my Earl Marshal.
This is the official word as of this moment from Count Alaric Lefevre, Midrealm KEM, MIC Pennsic 38.

You may post this to any and all list as long as it is posted in its entirety.

There has been ongoing testing and modifying of a new style blunt for use on fiberglass shafts. This blunt has gone through 3 modifications during testing.

On July 21, 2009 the BOD approved Duke Baldarâ€™s new CUBB / Fathead blunt for use, effective immediately.

There have been a string of postings involving whether the CUBB / Fathead blunt would, should or could be used at the upcoming Pennsic. As of the time of those postings, the decision hadnâ€™t been made yet.

The CUBB / Fathead blunt WILL NOT be permitted to be used at Pennsic during the major battles. If arrangements can be made to everyoneâ€™s satisfaction the CUBB / Fathead may end up being used in the CA only woods battle to gather more information and feedback from use in melee combat.

Woods Battle with Combat Archery: Yes, it seems that there is going to be Woods Battle on Tuesday Aug. 4th sponsored by Aethelmearc starting at 2 p.m.

This is not an official war point battle. This is more of a tournament style battle for fun.
All pre-battle combat archery ammo checks will be done by those putting on the battle at the time and location of their choosing.

Mater Erik Erikson the Scout

DEM Combat Archery Middle Kingdom

Pennsic Combat Archery Marshal in charge.

Thorstenn · Post by **Thorstenn** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:48 am

So they are approved by the BOD, the SEM, the Middle, and the East. But are an experiment at Pennsic ???? That's stupid IMO If they are legal then they are good for use, War point or not.

Thor.
KEM Trimaris

crimsonldr · Post by **crimsonldr** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:54 am

Johno wrote:Damn more blunt types? OK shoot blunts at me all day long that's cool. Just don't put them on rigid shafts of fiberglass. Those things are dangerous.

fail.

what do you base your statement of the safety of fiberglass shafts on? I am not aware of a specific issue with fiberglass shafts. Are there any specific numbers or injures from the shaft?

Just looking for data

William

RoaK · Post by **RoaK** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:16 am

An imaginary marshal imagined an imaginary knight got shoot in the ass with an imaginary fiberglass shafted arrow that had its tip broken off... :wink:

crimsonldr wrote:
Johno wrote:Damn more blunt types? OK shoot blunts at me all day long that's cool. Just don't put them on rigid shafts of fiberglass. Those things are dangerous.

fail.

what do you base your statement of the safety of fiberglass shafts on? I am not aware of a specific issue with fiberglass shafts. Are there any specific numbers or injures from the shaft?

Just looking for data

William

Count Johnathan · Post by **Count Johnathan** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:55 am

crimsonldr wrote:
Johno wrote:Damn more blunt types? OK shoot blunts at me all day long that's cool. Just don't put them on rigid shafts of fiberglass. Those things are dangerous.

fail.

what do you base your statement of the safety of fiberglass shafts on? I am not aware of a specific issue with fiberglass shafts. Are there any specific numbers or injures from the shaft?

Just looking for data

William

There are others who have better first hand knowledge of some injuries that have occured. Luckily so far no severe lasting injuries but if we keep tempting fate....

Thorstenn · Post by **Thorstenn** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:59 am

Duchess Tessa,

Do you know of any incidents like this.

Thor.

crimsonldr wrote:
Johno wrote:Damn more blunt types? OK shoot blunts at me all day long that's cool. Just don't put them on rigid shafts of fiberglass. Those things are dangerous.

fail.

what do you base your statement of the safety of fiberglass shafts on? I am not aware of a specific issue with fiberglass shafts. Are there any specific numbers or injures from the shaft?

Just looking for data

William

Balin50 · Post by **Balin50** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:14 pm

Thorstenn wrote:Duchess Tessa,

Do you know of any incidents like this.

Thor.

crimsonldr wrote:
Johno wrote:Damn more blunt types? OK shoot blunts at me all day long that's cool. Just don't put them on rigid shafts of fiberglass. Those things are dangerous.

fail.

what do you base your statement of the safety of fiberglass shafts on? I am not aware of a specific issue with fiberglass shafts. Are there any specific numbers or injures from the shaft?

Just looking for data

William

Come on you were involved in threads that talked about incidents just like this.

Balin

Thorstenn · Post by **Thorstenn** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:48 pm

Balin,

If the one you are talking about is my old squire brother Richard it had nothing to do with the Fiberglass shafts we use today. It was a much smaller fiberglass shaft with a PVC piece glued on to the tail end, it's what shattered and hit hit him in the eye (the PVC) Now we have APD's to stop that. They also improve the flight. Other than that unless I am forgetting something I know of no other incidents.

Thor.

Gorm · Post by **Gorm** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:12 pm

I realize that noone will believe me, or will claim I'm biased...however...

Since the introduction of the APD (~7 years ago now), there have been no incidents of a fiberglass shafted arrow *SHAFT* of a legally constructed missile penetrating a helm. At least none reported on the SCA wide Missile Combat list nor the Atlantian Marshals list nor the boards on this site.

Before the APD ruling, there were incidents where blunted missiles "bounced back" after hitting someone and the tail end of the missile penetrated a helm. This was why the APD rule was put into place. Those incidents should no longer matter in terms of "this isn't safe", as the design is now completely different.

There have been incidents where the foam used to cushion a tip partially penetrated eyeslots. The rules were amended practically immediately to control the amount of foam more rigidly. These new COBB Baldar blunts have no foam, so aren't susceptible to this at all (as I understand it, I have not laid hands on one as of yet, so I could be mistaken on the construction)

There have been (possibly apocryphal) incidents reported where illegal ammunition was shot (one case in the archives here allegedly an arrow with a barbi doll head was found...I don't believe it, and I am certain such an arrow would never pass inspection, so I have to assume either the story is incorrect or someone skipped inspection). You should not hold this against the "This isn't safe" argument, or else you have to ban swords as well, as someone could wrap a lead pipe in duct tape and take it onto the field, it would be equally illegal (and probably more dangerous).

There has been at least one incident where someone took their helm off in the combat zone and got hit in the face. I'm sorry, but that qualifies as a self-inflicted injury in my book...you violated the safety rules. Regardless, the same injury would have happened with a tube arrow.

Spectator overshooting is a concern frequently raised. This is an issue that would affect both shafted and tubular ammunition. It is mitigatable, but again, shafts vs tubes isn't the safety issue.

A correctly inspected combat missile has zero percent chance of catastrophic failure in use. A properly attached head and APD will not come off in use. An improperly attached (or one which was formerly properly attached, but is no longer due to use or abuse) head and/or APD gets caught in a proper inspection.

It is theoretically possible that a missile laying on the field after use could have the APD and/or head "popped off" under trampling, and then yes, it is theoretically possible that it could stick up out of the ground like a punji stick, and yes, it is theoretically possible that a fighter could fall face first onto it in such a way that the punji stick penetrated their faceplate, and yes, that would suck. However, the sum total of this risk is beyond infinitesimal. And for those fighters who aren't prepared to accept Hitting the Lotto twice in a week without buying a ticket level odds, there is a mitigation (wear safety lenses in your helm).

Fiberglass shafted arrows under the current ruleset which are properly constructed and inspected before each shot have proven that they are as safe as any other missile type we have on the field. In addition, they have the advantage of looking at least vaugely like something that might have been shot in period.

Balin50 · Post by **Balin50** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:14 pm

You may have left the list by the time it got brought up but i thought you were still on the chiv list at the time it was talked about. it was a squire from the east that was hit by an arrow with no tip on it. Depending on how far you want to go back a couple of folks have been struck by shafted ammo 1 of which caused the SCA to Ban CA for a limited amount of time.

Sorry i can't cross post.

Balin

Thorstenn · Post by **Thorstenn** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:23 pm

I dont believe I was on for that part. I wonder what kind of head was on that shaft to start. It is pretty hard to get a Baldar blunt off of a shaft. They use glue and tape to affix them in to place ? Glue is primary tape is a second safety crisscrossing over the head then wrapped around the bottom to secure it to the shaft.

When was the last full ban on CA. How many years.

Thor.

Balin50 wrote:You may have left the list by the time it got brought up but i thought you were still on the chiv list at the time it was talked about. it was a squire from the east that was hit by an arrow with no tip on it. Depending on how far you want to go back a couple of folks have been struck by shafted ammo 1 of which caused the SCA to Ban CA for a limited amount of time.

Sorry i can't cross post.

Balin

Count Johnathan · Post by **Count Johnathan** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:28 pm

"A correctly inspected combat missile has zero percent chance of catastrophic failure in use."

Are you insane man? Yes obviously bias.

And you are not correct about 7 years worth of incident free fiberglass shafted ammo use.

Wrong. :roll:

Gorm · Post by **Gorm** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:38 pm

Contradiction =/= argument.

Cite a confirmed case, preferably supported by reports to the Marshallate, of an inspected fiberglass shafted arrow shaft penetrating an SCA legal helm more than the legally allowed 0.499 inches since the APD ruling.

Oh, you're right, it's not 7 years....it's 8. well...it will be in 7 days. the ruling took effect 8/1/2001

Count Johnathan · Post by **Count Johnathan** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:46 pm

Gorm wrote:Contradiction =/= argument.

Cite a confirmed case, preferably supported by reports to the Marshallate, of an inspected fiberglass shafted arrow shaft penetrating an SCA legal helm more than the legally allowed 0.499 inches since the APD ruling.

Oh, you're right, it's not 7 years....it's 8. well...it will be in 7 days. the ruling took effect 8/1/2001

No I won't because it's a lot of hard work researching and listing the details of such incidents (which has been done many times before) just so you could dispute the evidence anyway. You live in fantasy land and no matter what, you desire to stay there so nothing I could show you would change your tune about it.

Just enjoy living in your magic realm of "zero percent" chances of failure.

Gorm · Post by **Gorm** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:00 pm

So, basically, I asked for evidence, and you say "I don't want to find it".

Very persuasive...

Balin50 · Post by **Balin50** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:02 pm

Thorstenn wrote:I dont believe I was on for that part. I wonder what kind of head was on that shaft to start. It is pretty hard to get a Baldar blunt off of a shaft. They use glue and tape to affix them in to place ? Glue is primary tape is a second safety crisscrossing over the head then wrapped around the bottom to secure it to the shaft.

When was the last full ban on CA. How many years.

Thor.

Balin50 wrote:You may have left the list by the time it got brought up but i thought you were still on the chiv list at the time it was talked about. it was a squire from the east that was hit by an arrow with no tip on it. Depending on how far you want to go back a couple of folks have been struck by shafted ammo 1 of which caused the SCA to Ban CA for a limited amount of time.

Sorry i can't cross post.

Balin

Long time back when dirt was new

Balin

Maeryk · Post by **Maeryk** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:02 pm

Gorm wrote:So, basically, I asked for evidence, and you say "I don't want to find it".

Very persuasive...

I'm more impressed that even though it's been "done many times before" that data isn't accessible anywhere.

DeCalmont · Post by **DeCalmont** » Fri Jul 24, 2009 2:04 pm

And who's living in the magic realm? :roll: