SCA and Knee Fighting- Do I have To?

[Aaron]

True, it could have been taken both ways. I just notice that neither my opponent nor I have as enjoyable time as we should when I fight "standard".

-Aaron

[mordreth]

just as a tought - if you can do three significant counted blows in fights you want to have you shouldn't be a speed bump in plain vanilla SCA fights

[Baron Alcyoneus]

And in 'standard' we are still doing three counted blows.

One leg, and both arms are three.

[Broadway]

Unless he religiously gets hit with the first counted blow first.

Maybe the padding of being able to be hit at least twice gives him some sort of mental advantage in a counted blows fight as opposed to a standard Scadian fight.

just as a tought - if you can do three significant counted blows in fights you want to have you shouldn't be a speed bump in plain vanilla SCA fights

[Count Johnathan]

My question is why attempt to participate in SCA fighting if you don't like it?

I wouldn't go to the park and ask to join a softball game if I wanted to play kickball. It just makes no sense to me.

I am sure at this point one could find like minded people at an SCA event but really what attracted you to even attempt fighting in a system you already don't like? I am not offended by the viewpoint that counted blows might be more fun for you but its not what we do. Why bother to get involved in the first place?

It would be rare for someone to demand that you go to your knees rather than to just accept a leg shot as a finishing blow but counted blows is not something I have ever seen offered or utilized unless that was the system being used from the start of the tournament for all bouts. Even that is an extreme rarity in this half of the world.

[Aaron]

Counted blows happens at every fighter practice I've ever fought at. In Japan the Avalon group had it often and I hosted events with it.

Are you suggesting I leave the SCA? I think there is still a couple of fighters out there who fight counted blows who I can meet.

Change happens. Over the years the SCA has improved and offered more of a historical version. And I'm thankful.

There have been suggestions that I leave the SCA, from both those within the SCA and the WMA groups that are tempting. I'm staying in the SCA.

I think the SCA will improve quite a bit in the next ten years. As the financial crisis gets worse, people will travel less, invest more in better kits and eventually look to history. I've seen that happen in Japan. It could happen here.

I'm even planning on building an event site. Go figure.

-Aaron

[Ceddie]

What I want to know is, would people get pissed if I just called a leg shot good and considered it a kill? Is it poor etiquette to refuse to fight from the knees?

1. I think its idiotic. If you could penetrate chain or injure through it enough, the guy isnt gonna be fighting.
2. I can walk, run, bike etc, but getting up off my knee is painful. I screwed it up on a bad parachute jump long ago in the Army.
3. My harness does not really allow for it. Knee length tassets.

Thanks for any help.

JvR

For reasons not unlike what you posted, I knee fight less and less. It really is bad for our joints as well as our gear and it does nothing to legitimize us as a sport because... it looks goofy.
If the venue allows and my opponent is willing, I prefer 3 telling blows. If not, I fight to a single telling blow.
I will still knee fight from time to time I also will work from my knees to train others. They are free to choose to do it or not if they want to. They must be comfortable and competent to compete or I have failed them as a trainer.

[Aaron]

No SCA recruiting poster features a fighter on their knees, and most recruiting posters are taken from photos of the Combat of 30 and other "High End" fighting with counted blows.

I think counted blows are here to stay, and could be the future as well. As we age, so will our knees.

-Aaron

[Count Johnathan]

Counted blows happens at every fighter practice I've ever fought at. In Japan the Avalon group had it often and I hosted events with it.

Are you suggesting I leave the SCA? I think there is still a couple of fighters out there who fight counted blows who I can meet.

Change happens. Over the years the SCA has improved and offered more of a historical version. And I'm thankful.

There have been suggestions that I leave the SCA, from both those within the SCA and the WMA groups that are tempting. I'm staying in the SCA.

I think the SCA will improve quite a bit in the next ten years. As the financial crisis gets worse, people will travel less, invest more in better kits and eventually look to history. I've seen that happen in Japan. It could happen here.

I'm even planning on building an event site. Go figure.

-Aaron

Did it sound like I suggested leaving the SCA? I asked what attracted you to the SCA traditional style of combat that you apparently have little interest in.

IMO folks with little imagination who require that others look some specific way has caused much damage to what the SCA has always been about which is fun. It's not supposed to be a snotty period nazi snubbish attitude about how we are doing it historically innacurately according to what you desire. It seems that while you enjoy the SCA social structure and the people in it you kind of look down your nose at our fighting culture as some substandard mockery of what you consider to be armored combat. That is offensive to some. Most of us are quite passionate about this sport we love and have spent many years perfecting.

I suggest that you stay in the SCA but if you are going to, at least try to embrace the traditional fighting style and appreciate the SCA specific culture that the rest of us enjoy.

Sorry for being off topic I just really don't understand this viewpoint.

[Aaron]

I asked what attracted you to the SCA traditional style of combat that you apparently have little interest in.

For many years my wife was a SCA heavy fighter. Beauty bewitched me in. I'll blame her.

But I've fought from my knees in the past and found it horrid. I worked on embracing it for almost six years.

I'd prefer to stand up. And I think there are many who will stand up with me in the future.

My question is why attempt to participate in SCA fighting if you don't like it?

Perhaps I took that wrong. You were asking why I joined. Not why I stay.

We might be looking for lots of future discussion. I deplore knee fighting and like combat archery. Your views are reverse of that, I think.

-Aaron

[Count Johnathan]

Well your right then. The SCA will improve as folks who want the SCA to be something completely different than what it is will lose interest and go off on their merry way to find something that does appeal to them.

Sorry man we can't change our entire method of blow calling for you. We are already very well established with our method of calibration and penalty for poor defense.

Of course if we were facing off in a tourney or even just a pickup and you wanted to take a leg blow as a "kill" I would have no issue with it. To continue fighting you I would probably just not hit you there anymore unless you were highly skilled and then if I could finish you with leg blows I would.

[Aaron]

Thank you! But I think that I would accept the leg blow as a win and let you proceed.

I'm just happy for one opponent at a time, if I can. If I can find one, I'll be happy enough. I remember that Sir Angus and I fought for 38 minutes with multiple weapons, with blows that eventually couldn't be counted. That was enough for one day!

Of course if we were facing off in a tourney or even just a pickup and you wanted to take a leg blow as a "kill" I would have no issue with it. To continue fighting you I would probably just not hit you there anymore unless you were highly skilled and then if I could finish you with leg blows I would.

Thanks again! I would rather just conceed that round to you and start again, if possible. If you avoid hitting me in the leg, it's unsporting of me. I've basically tried to get you a smaller target area.

I look forward to meeting you at Estralla in 2010!

-Aaron

[Count Johnathan]

Thank you! But I think that I would accept the leg blow as a win and let you proceed.

I'm just happy for one opponent at a time, if I can. If I can find one, I'll be happy enough. I remember that Sir Angus and I fought for 38 minutes with multiple weapons, with blows that eventually couldn't be counted. That was enough for one day!

Of course if we were facing off in a tourney or even just a pickup and you wanted to take a leg blow as a "kill" I would have no issue with it. To continue fighting you I would probably just not hit you there anymore unless you were highly skilled and then if I could finish you with leg blows I would.

Thanks again! I would rather just conceed that round to you and start again, if possible. If you avoid hitting me in the leg, it's unsporting of me. I've basically tried to get you a smaller target area.

I look forward to meeting you at Estralla in 2010!

-Aaron

Well in a matter of speaking it is semi unsportsmanlike to enter into a game with no intention of following it's basic rules.

The archery vs. Knee fighting thing is not the same. Unlike archery Knee fighting has not gone through constant change every year for decades. It has been a constant throughout unlike archery that is still problematic after 40 years of trial and error. No need to go into an archery tangent here though.

Like any aspect of a sport fighting from your knees takes practice. Still if you have some reason or condition that prohibits you from being able to go to your knees it's not an issue but to just decline the contest cause you don't like it? It is our penalty for poor defense. If you want to fight in the SCA and you don't want to go to your knees, block your legs. If you can't block them, practice defense and improve upon your abilities. Don't seek to alter the method of blow acceptance because of it.

[Aaron]

I believe we will have to disagree on the knee fighting/counted blows issue. But you are an excellent debator and I've enjoyed reading your posts. I don't think further discussion will change either of our views.

With thanks,

-Aaron

[Count Johnathan]

Well that is pleasant. Thank you Aaron.

I don't challenge your concept of fun. I was just curious as to the attraction. Ladies can have strange effects upon us can't they?

Man: "I detest Pie"

Lady: "Mmmmm Pie is good"

Man: "You are right M’ lady pie is quite delicious, I love pie. "

[Jonathon More]

Ok, I'll ask the question that hasn't been asked;

Why don't you like fighting from your knees? Is it that your knees don't work so well to take the abuse? Maybe you don't want to skuff your uber-pretty armour? You just don't want to look "silly"?


Just to throw out my own opinion, I really don't care to drop to my knees. I'm getting older and I really want to save the joints I have left for something important, like my job (firefighter/paramedic). In that vein, if someone right before a tourney bout casually mentioned that they have issues with dropping to their knees for pretty much any reason and wanted to take a leg as a kill, or go to counted blows, I don't think I would have a problem with that at all. In fact I would definitely jump on the the counted blows, being a COTT vet and loving a more historical form for the fight. Don't throw up the argument that it's not traditional in the SCA. If you want to go that route I'm going to ask you where your piece of lathe and motorcycle helmet is. The SCA has grown and is continuing to grow, it's what groups of people do. But this is supposed to be just my opinion. As long as my opponent made an issue known to me before the start of the bout, no problem whatsoever. If it's something really odd, I may decline or negotiate some sort of modification, but I'm not going to be offended. If it's a 'no drop to my knees, I'll take any leg as a kill' I'm probably going to not throw legs shots as long as my opponent doesn't throw leg shots. Why does altering the victory conditions offend some people as much as it seems to?

[Benedek]

My apologies, I misread the reply

Actually Mordreth, you and I read it in exactly the same way. I believe Dilan did as well, which is why I haven't jumped on the Flaming wagon. But yes the way the post was written it certainly seemed that Aaron was talking about he himself going off to find "a better opponent" thereby passing judgement upon the fighter who refuse counted blows.

I also believe that Aaron mis-wrote what he meant. I don't believe he intended insult, merely fell pray to a poorly formated word choice for this medium.

Also another reason why I didn't start flaming. But I do not believe you misread the post Sir!

regards
Thorvaldr

Guess it's up to interpretation, I read it as the he will leave the field so his opponent may find a better fight.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Jonathon More -

I really think the problems occur when people start postin g that their way is "the better way" or "the one true way" and everyone else is wrong.

When people talk about knee fighting, it is inevitably followed by "combat BJ" or "looks stupid", etc. etc. etc. For people who fight "SCA standard" that isn't exactly the most courteous way to get your point across. Now toss in "Knee fighting is stupid and the SCA must adopt what we want now or be mired in stupidity...", especially when nothing in the rules REQUIRES you to fight from your knees.

Many people seem to think that coming across as abrasive, "tough" or insulting to others is somehow being part of the "in crowd" in, espcially on the Archive. And this causes defensivness and then nobody is listening to anyone and Doug C has to come in and get his dig....

If you are willing to sift through the chest thumping crap though, you do find some good points on occasion.



.

[Jonathon More]

Now that is certainly a generous and gentlemanly way to look at things. I will try to incorporate that viewpoint when reading threads like this one. I guess I just don't get the rancor that some topics give rise to. I don't see the "my way is better and you have to do it like me" but can certainly accept that others may have a different perception of things and give a bit of slack. Not sure if I'm willing the give the chest thumping an all-inclusive pass though, no sense in just being a jerk for the sake of being a jerk IMO.

[asbrand]

Counted blows happens at every fighter practice I've ever fought at.

I can say, with all honesty, in the 25+ years of SCA for me, I have never once seen or fought "counted blows".

I'm not opposed to it. Just never seen it in our neck of the woods, so to speak...

[Ceddie]

Counted blows happens at every fighter practice I've ever fought at.

I can say, with all honesty, in the 25+ years of SCA for me, I have never once seen or fought "counted blows".

I'm not opposed to it. Just never seen it in our neck of the woods, so to speak...

I can't think if a practice that I've ever been to... ever when someone didn't say "you want to fight five?"
or "let's go three more."
Or "first to ten wins."

that's counted blows any way you look at it.

[Dauyd]

Counted blows happens at every fighter practice I've ever fought at.

I can say, with all honesty, in the 25+ years of SCA for me, I have never once seen or fought "counted blows".

I'm not opposed to it. Just never seen it in our neck of the woods, so to speak...

I can't think if a practice that I've ever been to... ever when someone didn't say "you want to fight five?"
or "let's go three more."
Or "first to ten wins."

that's counted blows any way you look at it.

I dunno if I'd call that counted blows. Fighting more than one bout isn't the same as having to get multiple shots in to get the "win".

I will say, though, that I have never been to a practice, event, moot, or any other SCA activity that there wasn't at least one guy named "Dauyd", though.

[asbrand]

I can't think if a practice that I've ever been to... ever when someone didn't say "you want to fight five?"
or "let's go three more."
Or "first to ten wins."

that's counted blows any way you look at it.

Never done that either. Has always been "fight until you are too tired". Or "I have 2 more left in me" but is irrelevant if you win or lose...you just have 2 more left in ya to fight....

*shrug*

Not saying counted blows is a bad thing. Just not something *I* have ever seen.

[Aaron]

Usually we have to rent or borrow fighting space from a church or school, and don't fight from our knees due to the concern for the floor. So it becomes a lot like counted blows. And then I ask for counted blows.

I do fight SCA standard IF a friend is prepping for an important tournament and needs practice in that art, & a skilled knee fighter is not available. But I prefer to fight from my knees in comfortable grass. There are even photographs wafting around the net of me fighting from my knees. I just prefer not to. Also I am a 40 year old runner and want my knees to do well.

-Aaron

[benz72]

I can't think if a practice that I've ever been to... ever when someone didn't say "you want to fight five?"
or "let's go three more."
Or "first to ten wins."

that's counted blows any way you look at it.

Never done that either. Has always been "fight until you are too tired". Or "I have 2 more left in me" but is irrelevant if you win or lose...you just have 2 more left in ya to fight....

*shrug*

Not saying counted blows is a bad thing. Just not something *I* have ever seen.

We (I) try to end each practice with a burn-out fight to X counted blows (roughly 25 now). Anyway, none of the wounds are take, we just keep fighting until someone gets to their target number of hits of is too tired to remain upright. It's really good exercise, btu don't start off the practice like that or you could end up with a lousy night. I enjoy the format and think of it as a lot more intense since there are no breaks in the action to evaluate or enact hits. your opponent just keeps ratcheting up the number and you are moving every which way to smack them while avoiding having one land on you. I reccommend it to anyone who wants to work on their endurance.

[audax]

Well that is pleasant. Thank you Aaron.

I don't challenge your concept of fun. I was just curious as to the attraction. Ladies can have strange effects upon us can't they?

Man: "I detest Pie"

Lady: "Mmmmm Pie is good"

Man: "You are right M’ lady pie is quite delicious, I love pie. "

That happens to me too.

[Eirik]

Az-

Surely, as long as you have fought, you can recall fighting at least one guy who you knew would not call the first 3 you hit him with....


I mean... that's kind of like counted blows...



right?

[Adriano]

Aaron, I hope we meet sometime, and I'd love to try out counted blows with you. (Even though my kit doesn't come close to the appearance standards for the COTT.)

[asbrand]

Az-

Surely, as long as you have fought, you can recall fighting at least one guy who you knew would not call the first 3 you hit him with....


I mean... that's kind of like counted blows...



right?

ROFL - point taken.

Then again...I've fought a few who apparently were doing counted blows, but I evidently never reached the required "counted number". *wink*

[Aaron]

Aaron, I hope we meet sometime, and I'd love to try out counted blows with you. (Even though my kit doesn't come close to the appearance standards for the COTT.)

I look forward to it! And don't worry about the quality of the kit. My eyesight is poor and my imagination is great. Exposed plastic doesn't even make me concerned.

-Aaron