The Armour Archive

From Count Rhys:

Here are the original rules for the Combat of the Thirty:
**************************************************

Combat of the Thirty
1.) No basket hilts--all swords will have cross hilts. (NB: One handed weapons are going to be of very little use since you may only thrust with them.)
2.) No unpadded poll arms--all pole weapons must have an appropriately-shaped head of significant mass.
3.) No poll arm may exceed 6 feet, no spear may exceed 7 feet, no sword may exceed 50 inches.
4.) We are using an assumed-plate standard. Blows to the body and limbs have no effect.
5.) Thrusts to an open face (i.e., a bargrill), neck, armpit, inside of the elbow, back of the ass, or back of the thigh (unless someone is actually wearing closed cuisses) all "kill" (or render you unable to continue—same thing). If you are "killed" you are out of the entire combat.
6.) Heavy blows to the head *did* have an effect, so any blow with a two-handed weapon will count towards a "stun." If you are struck three times to the head in any single engagement you are counted as stunned and must yield. We're all gentlemen, so we can all use common sense and a sense of honor to be realistic about what "a single engagement" means. If you get hit twice and then fighting breaks off, that's it, you start counting over. If three different guys hit you in the head one after the other with no real break in the fighting then you're stunned.
7.) Anyone who gets beaten so hard he can't continue may choose to yield.
8.) Anyone who is completely unarmed must yield (note that even a dagger is enough to prevent this).
9.) Anyone who touches the ground with anything other than the soles of his feet must yield.
10.) Capturing Prisoners: If you "must yield" (see above) or choose to do so then anyone (from the other side) can simply point his weapon at you and say something to let you know he's captured you (e.g., "you're my prisoner," "yield!," "I've captured you," etc.). If no one does this then you may continue to fight as though nothing had happened.
11.) The captor must walk his prisoner off the field. While he's doing so, the captor may, of course, be forced to fight. If he is killed himself then the prisoner goes free. During such fights the prisoner must stand quietly awaiting the outcome.
12.) Prisoner's must stand together off the side of the field. If the person who captures them is "killed" (not captured, *killed*), then they are released and may return to the fighting as though nothing had happened.
13.) Ransom: Bring what you feel is appropriate to your station. (I'll have jewels and coin on hand personally.)
14.) Combat will last until all of one side are either captured, killed or have retired voluntarily. A 10-minute break will be called every 15 minutes. (No one may bring in a horse at the last minute!) Anyone may voluntarily leave the field for as long as he wishes to rest and/or rearm at any time.
15.) The winning side is the one in possession of the field at the end.
16.) There's no setup of any kind required for this combat, but each side is required to bring enough water for their own people. We will provide a time keeper to run the breaks.
**********************************************************

I tweaked the original ransom rule since it called for buying coins at the Deed to be able to join the engagement.

I beleive that Johannes and I had discussed that any weapon that is to be wielded as a two-handed weapon, ie bastard sword, had better be of sufficient size to have the mass to due the kind of concussive damage that we are "assuming" they will do.

Also, the original rules do allow for spears and do not disallow shields. However, since this same rule set has been designed so that single handed weapons are only good for thrusting to vitals and spears would only be useful for thrusting at vitals as well, we saw little, if any, use of them. I, for one, will be wearing a hauberk under my jupon this year so that I have my vitals covered. Being the Prince of Ealdormere has made me realize that I need to come through this Deed unharmed.

Johannes and I have not come to a decision about the use of sheilds or spears in this encounter. As Johannes mentioned, I am a little pre-occupied with my ever-nearing reign, and am truly behind the curve on recruiting as well as having time to have lengthy dialogues about this years CotT.

It is my hope that Johannes and I can have the rules set in stone by the end of next week.

Anyone that is interested in joining this valiant Deed should contact either Johannes or myself. If you know anyone that has the appropriate armour and state of mind for this outrance deed, please, have them come to the field and join us. I know that we have yet, in all of the years of the CotT, been able to fill the rosters. Johannes and I have recruited well over the 30 person roster and still came up low on numbers at the time of the Deed. We will not take just anyone though. I have, in the past, asked that people unknown to me, have someone that I do know vouch for them. It seems to have worked as some of those gentles have returned with increased vigour each year.

Enough rambling for now; I am off to my squire's home to further my plans for an upcoming reign.

Respectfully,

Nigel
Prince of Ealdormere
Captain of the French Forces

Kai wrote:So there is no COTT at Gulf Wars, per se, Ceddie, but the Deed of Arms instead? Same type of numbers?

Jonathon More wrote:For what it's worth, everyone participating in the COTT is wearing accurate 14th C armour, and it's fought for all intents and purposes with armour as worn. Yes it's a slightly different combat convention than the run of the mill SCA melee, but that would be the point. As for flaws, the only way around flaws is to use sharp steel swords. Somehow I don't think you're willing to go that far. YMMV

Ceddie wrote:No there is no such requirement for either the Combat of the Thirty that I am aware of or for the Deed. That is something that I have heard more than once, even on the field at the time of the fight by spectators, it is not true. You are expected to behave like a Gentleman, a man of station.

You don't have to be a Knight to look knightly....

She has mentioned that she might fight in it one day.

Aaron wrote:Hi,

Could someone post the combat of 30 rules and format, please?

Oh, pictures and video links would be good too BTW!

With respect,

-Aaron

Murdock wrote:It would wreck gear to fight that way every event

Now every major interkingdom war?

IE
Pennsic
Gulf
Estrella
Lillies
Great Western

ect

YEah 1 at each of them.... maybe different themes. Make one WOR one 3rd Crusade ect.

That would be great

Lord_Wolf wrote:

Murdock wrote:YEah 1 at each of them.... maybe different themes. Make one WOR one 3rd Crusade ect.

That would be great

This would be awesome beyond all greatness...

Suzerain wrote:

Lord_Wolf wrote:

Murdock wrote:YEah 1 at each of them.... maybe different themes. Make one WOR one 3rd Crusade ect.

That would be great

This would be awesome beyond all greatness...

I can dig out an account of a judicial combat of 30 vs 30 that ocurred in central scotland in 1396, which might appeal to the more tartan-minded among you, for that if you like.

white mountain armoury wrote:

Suzerain wrote:

Lord_Wolf wrote:

Murdock wrote:YEah 1 at each of them.... maybe different themes. Make one WOR one 3rd Crusade ect.

That would be great

This would be awesome beyond all greatness...

I can dig out an account of a judicial combat of 30 vs 30 that ocurred in central scotland in 1396, which might appeal to the more tartan-minded among you, for that if you like.

Yes please !!

Suzerain wrote:There can have been no doubt of it, for Bow and Sword, axe and dagger slaughtered all but one of Clan Kay's warriors, is was said, and he wisely escaped by climbing the enclosure and swimming the Tay..."

John Prebble, The Lion in the North.

Note the bold. Now THAT is interesting in and of itself. We have to keep reminding ourselves not to get myopic in what a judicial challenge may include the farther we get from England/France. and the farther we get from the 14th & 15th centuries.

Suzerain wrote:and that's an event in 1396, so almost exacty in the middle of that era, if you consider 14th and 15th C to be 1301-1499, and a grand total of 250-ish miles from england, in a region that was english-speaking...

note though that the older account I had lying around mentions Axe, Sword, and Dirk, not bow, so that may be an embellishment by john prebble in his book.

on the other hand, apologies for accidentally using the B word, and therefore the resultant argument which will probably errupt.

Sean Powell wrote:

Suzerain wrote:and that's an event in 1396, so almost exacty in the middle of that era, if you consider 14th and 15th C to be 1301-1499, and a grand total of 250-ish miles from england, in a region that was english-speaking...

note though that the older account I had lying around mentions Axe, Sword, and Dirk, not bow, so that may be an embellishment by john prebble in his book.

on the other hand, apologies for accidentally using the B word, and therefore the resultant argument which will probably errupt.

I concede the date. I did the stupid math and said 1396 = 12th century by subtracting 1 not adding.

Still, even 250 miles from the English border and we see something that every knight from England would understand... and yet wonder about these bizzare back-woods uncivilized rules.

Murdock wrote:"1396, which might appeal to the more tartan-minded among you, for that if you like. "

Thatd be great


but no one would be wearing the Tratans in 1396.

They'd be dress almost identically to northen England or those of simialr social group in France.

Plus this is in Perth not exactly Waaaayyyy up in the highlands

It's about half way between St Andrews and Oban cording to the map.

Suzerain wrote:

Murdock wrote:"1396, which might appeal to the more tartan-minded among you, for that if you like. "

Thatd be great


but no one would be wearing the Tratans in 1396.

They'd be dress almost identically to northen England or those of simialr social group in France.

Plus this is in Perth not exactly Waaaayyyy up in the highlands

It's about half way between St Andrews and Oban cording to the map.

erm. Take a look at where I'm from, and you might get an indication that "tartan-minded" might have maybe been a teeny little bit of cynicsm and sarcasm.

just a little drop.
you know. a wee dram of it....

Murdock wrote:I got that.


I apologize if offended.