The Armour Archive

Guy Dawkins wrote:It's called precision.

For real? You're not really going to imply that rattan fighters are not precise with what they do are you?

Can you light matches with the tip of your sword? I can. My father made me do it when I started fighting with rattan. It was a daily exercise. It's all about precision.

Edit to add: Forgive me all I will withdraw from this debate so please don't bother with replying to me here. I apologize for moving away from the initial topic. This is not my place. I do not practice the form that you enjoy.

Regards,

Johnathan

Magnus of the Dark Wyvern wrote:*long winded*

My concern really lies in it to my knowledge being a touch sport, though that may be up to debate in different Kingdoms. I think the rules as they stand now are similair to rapier in it's supposed to be touch. I have heard some people are trying to make it more than touch, that peeks my interest.

I am wondering if the allowed blow strength leads to people winning fights who are extremely quick with the wrist, but land a sword blow that even sharpened would fail miserably.

I may also be talking out of my buttox once more, but the 2 handed sword stuff looks silly and unrealistic. The blades bending all over the place just in mid swing, and seem a lot lighter than makes sense. Specifically in regards to 2 handed weapons the leaning on the side of historical accuracy in steel seems to be countered by a weapon that doesn't make sense. (maybe it does make sense and my limited knowledge is just that, limited).

I'm also curious as to how safely wars can be fought in cut and thrust if they're approved/done/etc. And by safely I mean what rule restrictions will be needed to make them safe. Don't run with scissors.

Lastly I have a personal preference to banging and crashing and getting smoked. That's just how I operate. I do promise my cut & thrust friends that I'll try it soon though. I see the most promise in C&T in sword and shield tournament fighting.

Dude...

In the friendliest way, get off your lazy butt and start doing it. C'mon, we got Yusuf using the 2-handers up at Clinton, he had a blast.

You know you don't have any choice...Estaban's not gonna let you get away without some bangin on the next sunday you show up...

Johno wrote:

iomtalach wrote:I'm sorry it looks slower than rattan, but that's what happens when you use swords.

Well unless you move it faster anyway. A well balanced blade is extremely fast. Can't blame the weapon. A sword is only as fast as you can swing it.

Uhm.

Yeah, you know, never mind. This isn't going to work online. Be happy to sit in a field with a stack of weapons and some beers some day, and play til the sun goes down. I'm confident I'd make my point then. ...or in any case, enjoy the conversation and the company.

raito wrote:
1.2 B 1) In Light Rapier and Heavy Rapier, valid blows are struck by: thrusting with the point of the blade (thrust) and drawing the edge of the blade across part of the opponent’s body (draw cut). In Cut-and-thrust swordplay, valid blows are struck by thrusting with the point of the blade (thrust) or cutting with a percussive impact (percussive cut). Percussive cuts must always be delivered with sufficient control so as not to injure the opponent while still delivering the necessary impact for a valid cut. An injury is defined as something that causes the person to be unable to continue fighting, even briefly'.


I'm not seeing anything indicating that C&T allows for greater force here.

And Logos, I'd love to. It's been far too long.

I'm going to say that it is right there, inherent in the distinction between a percussive cut and a draw cut. Last I knew, percussive cuts were explicitly prohibited from SCA Rapier. The draw cut is easily done with "touch" calibration and doesn't involve *hitting* at all. As soon as you start *hitting* with the blade, you're into percussive cuts which immediately move above touch calibration, even if it is kept light.

Kilkenny wrote:

raito wrote:
1.2 B 1) In Light Rapier and Heavy Rapier, valid blows are struck by: thrusting with the point of the blade (thrust) and drawing the edge of the blade across part of the opponent’s body (draw cut). In Cut-and-thrust swordplay, valid blows are struck by thrusting with the point of the blade (thrust) or cutting with a percussive impact (percussive cut). Percussive cuts must always be delivered with sufficient control so as not to injure the opponent while still delivering the necessary impact for a valid cut. An injury is defined as something that causes the person to be unable to continue fighting, even briefly'.


I'm not seeing anything indicating that C&T allows for greater force here.

And Logos, I'd love to. It's been far too long.

I'm going to say that it is right there, inherent in the distinction between a percussive cut and a draw cut. Last I knew, percussive cuts were explicitly prohibited from SCA Rapier. The draw cut is easily done with "touch" calibration and doesn't involve *hitting* at all. As soon as you start *hitting* with the blade, you're into percussive cuts which immediately move above touch calibration, even if it is kept light.

Cut and Thrust can go as high as the people playing want it to go, just like SCA heavy. The rules are the ground-level guidelines.

iomtalach wrote:

Johno wrote:

iomtalach wrote:
You live in a funny world.

It's sure not related to the real world.

Yes accidents only happen in my fantasy land. Nothing bad ever really happens. Death and destruction is just a dream friend.....

Hi, my name is Randy Packer.

I've been a WMA instructor for almost 7 years, running the largest school in North America...probably the second largest in the world. I'm assuming Guy Windsor's in Finland is bigger. I've been doing C&T since 1999. I'm a rapier and heavy fighter in the SCA, and a WS.

It's no exaggeration to say that I've taught thousands of students, bouting under a system far less stringent than the SCA's, with force levels that exceed heavy combat. All steel, minimal armour. Sometimes just a mask and a t-shirt...sometimes not even that.

Normal bouts include bruises and bloodshed.

And....not one serious accident. Not one.

We've had broken blades, failed masks...no serious accidents.

None.

None in C&T locally, either.

You'd be amazed what a little safety training can do for people.

Accidents do indeed happen.

They are just that, accidents.

Or should we ban heavy fighting? I saw a dude get his arm broken from a hard hit! We can't allow that! It's dangerous!

Sir, I cannot, in any way, emphasise your statements with greater respect, and my most sincere agreements.

Although not a participant, I am lucky enough to have spent a lot of time in the company of Paul Macdonald's assorted pupils in edinburgh, alonside our own far smaller group. and their experience, and my own corroborates exactly with your findings. (thankyou, Liz, publican of the Auldhoose pub, for tolerating our gesticulations, and occasional demonstrations of such-and-such a move, in the pub where most of the sword-carrying lunatics of edinburgh drink, which allows so much dialogue and cross-pollination of ideas and findings among the groups)
The only exception to that has been that in edinburgh, the DDS has had one serious accident. one serious accident too many, as every one of us will agree... but one alone. and that accident, I would note, was a swordblade that managed to pass through the visor slit of a sallet no wider than the blade it managed to hit - a literal one in a billion chance, which when investigated, they found that in any normal test, the blade did'nt even go through the gap. Safety precautions were adjusted accordingly, I am lead to beleive.

Among our own society, the worst have been a few concussions, plenty of bruises, a stitch or two, and wounded pride.

SCA heavy combat is intended to be as approximately as dangerous as a well run high school sports program (as in the US, which I state for reference only). I'll steer my kingdom and kids away from blood sports, and I thank you for the information.

Regards,

Avery

DukeAvery wrote:SCA heavy combat is intended to be as approximately as dangerous as a well run high school sports program (as in the US, which I state for reference only). I'll steer my kingdom and kids away from blood sports, and I thank you for the information.

Regards,

Avery

Yes, and people bleed, and die in high school sports programs. People bleed in SCA heavy combat, as well.

Not intentionally. And people don't (often) bleed intentionally in WMA either. But it happens. Just like it happens in SCA heavy.

Johno wrote:

Guy Dawkins wrote:It's called precision.

For real? You're not really going to imply that rattan fighters are not precise with what they do are you?

Can you light matches with the tip of your sword? I can. My father made me do it when I started fighting with rattan. It was a daily exercise. It's all about precision.

Edit to add: Forgive me all I will withdraw from this debate so please don't bother with replying to me here. I apologize for moving away from the initial topic. This is not my place. I do not practice the form that you enjoy.

Regards,

Johnathan

I'll take that bait.

And I'll say no. In my experience, 80% of the fighters in the SCA are NOT percise with what they do. Many, that I watch and/or fight use the lottery method of combat. Most have rudimetary training and little weapons study.

Are there great martial artists in the SCA? Yes, I know many of them and am lucky to know them.
But, to say the SCA as a whole is well trained and percise in combat is just plain false.

I've been fighting for nearly a quarter-century and I've seen very little bloodshed in sca combat, certainly nothing like

"Normal bouts include bruises and bloodshed. "

Of course, we go to different practices.

Maeryk wrote:

DukeAvery wrote:SCA heavy combat is intended to be as approximately as dangerous as a well run high school sports program (as in the US, which I state for reference only). I'll steer my kingdom and kids away from blood sports, and I thank you for the information.

Regards,

Avery

Yes, and people bleed, and die in high school sports programs. People bleed in SCA heavy combat, as well.

Not intentionally. And people don't (often) bleed intentionally in WMA either. But it happens. Just like it happens in SCA heavy.

DukeAvery wrote:I've been fighting for nearly a quarter-century and I've seen very little bloodshed in sca combat, certainly nothing like

"Normal bouts include bruises and bloodshed. "

Of course, we go to different practices.

Maeryk wrote:

DukeAvery wrote:SCA heavy combat is intended to be as approximately as dangerous as a well run high school sports program (as in the US, which I state for reference only). I'll steer my kingdom and kids away from blood sports, and I thank you for the information.

Regards,

Avery

Yes, and people bleed, and die in high school sports programs. People bleed in SCA heavy combat, as well.

Not intentionally. And people don't (often) bleed intentionally in WMA either. But it happens. Just like it happens in SCA heavy.

You know, if you're going to misquote somebody it is much more effective if you don't actually include the real quote in the post...

No idea what you are talking about.

Dauyd wrote:

DukeAvery wrote:I've been fighting for nearly a quarter-century and I've seen very little bloodshed in sca combat, certainly nothing like

"Normal bouts include bruises and bloodshed. "

Of course, we go to different practices.

Maeryk wrote:

DukeAvery wrote:SCA heavy combat is intended to be as approximately as dangerous as a well run high school sports program (as in the US, which I state for reference only). I'll steer my kingdom and kids away from blood sports, and I thank you for the information.

Regards,

Avery

Yes, and people bleed, and die in high school sports programs. People bleed in SCA heavy combat, as well.

Not intentionally. And people don't (often) bleed intentionally in WMA either. But it happens. Just like it happens in SCA heavy.

You know, if you're going to misquote somebody it is much more effective if you don't actually include the real quote in the post...

Johno wrote:
For real? You're not really going to imply that rattan fighters are not precise with what they do are you?



Johnathan

We aren't- you are.

You are the one saying that you can't hit with speed without hitting full force, not us.

I'll be blunt- if you truly have so little precision and control that you can't maintain proper calibration while moving at speed, then you aren't even the equal of a newly authorized rapier fighter.

Now, I don't actually believe that you have that little control, but that is what you are saying.

DukeAvery wrote:No idea what you are talking about.

Dauyd wrote:

DukeAvery wrote:I've been fighting for nearly a quarter-century and I've seen very little bloodshed in sca combat, certainly nothing like

"Normal bouts include bruises and bloodshed. "

Of course, we go to different practices.

Maeryk wrote:

DukeAvery wrote:SCA heavy combat is intended to be as approximately as dangerous as a well run high school sports program (as in the US, which I state for reference only). I'll steer my kingdom and kids away from blood sports, and I thank you for the information.

Regards,

Avery

Yes, and people bleed, and die in high school sports programs. People bleed in SCA heavy combat, as well.

Not intentionally. And people don't (often) bleed intentionally in WMA either. But it happens. Just like it happens in SCA heavy.

You know, if you're going to misquote somebody it is much more effective if you don't actually include the real quote in the post...

Ookaaaay....

DukeAvery wrote:I've been fighting for nearly a quarter-century and I've seen very little bloodshed in sca combat, certainly nothing like

"Normal bouts include bruises and bloodshed. "

Of course, we go to different practices.

so you've never had a bang on the knuckle that left you sucking a grazed finger where your glove took some of the hit? never had a smack on the shin that bled a little? never had your helmet on too loose, and cracked your chin, nose or eyebrow and got a scrape? never had your armour bite you after you put on a little too much weight at christmas? never fallen over backwards in the fight, and had a stick on the ground jab you on the arse through your armour?

that is the level of bloodshed. I have experienced in WMA training, and I can safely say that Mr Packer's students have experienced likewise.

you appear to be imagining that every bout results in the arterial spurting of cloven helms and shattered armour, blades severing man, beast or duck alike in an orgy of sharpened steel and bloodlust. From my point of view, I suspect that you're smoking crack from babies' arses*, for such assumptions.

*apologies to any who take offence. but it is a perfectly apt term, I suspect

Cya next thread, and don't worry - I won't let the thread door hit me on the way out.

Yeeeah...

LOGOS, good call. Your original question has been illustrated STRONGLY in the last two pages.

It does really seem that the heavy community has a strong element of people that look at C&T and say:

"Pussies! Too dangerous!"

So...I'm going to go back to the one heavy at a time conversion process.

Heavies are timid, scared creatures terrified of having to learn a new thing, but with gentle care, they can learn. And have great fun doing it. You just have to be gentle, and not bark at them. They pout. And dig in their heels, as stubborn as mules, about the one true way.

But with proper, gentle care, they can really, truly become champions. I believe this.

Anyway, I'm off to teach my MMA class for the night. Got my jaw dislocated twice last week by a cute young lady. Dangerous sport. Oughta be banned. People can get hurt. Not as dangerous as high school football, but then, what is?

Suzerain wrote:you appear to be imagining that every bout results in the arterial spurting of cloven helms and shattered armour, blades severing man, beast or duck alike in an orgy of sharpened steel and bloodlust.

I have seen that British WMA movie, the one with the black knight in it, that is exactly what it is like

B. Amos wrote:

Suzerain wrote:you appear to be imagining that every bout results in the arterial spurting of cloven helms and shattered armour, blades severing man, beast or duck alike in an orgy of sharpened steel and bloodlust.

I have seen that British WMA movie, the one with the black knight in it, that is exactly what it is like

God, that documentary was brutal.

iomtalach wrote:Yeeeah...

LOGOS, good call. Your original question has been illustrated STRONGLY in the last two pages.

It does really seem that the heavy community has a strong element of people that look at C&T and say:

"Pussies! Too dangerous!"

So...I'm going to go back to the one heavy at a time conversion process.

Heavies are timid, scared creatures terrified of having to learn a new thing, but with gentle care, they can learn. And have great fun doing it. You just have to be gentle, and not bark at them. They pout. And dig in their heels, as stubborn as mules, about the one true way.

But with proper, gentle care, they can really, truly become champions. I believe this.

Anyway, I'm off to teach my MMA class for the night. Got my jaw dislocated twice last week by a cute young lady. Dangerous sport. Oughta be banned. People can get hurt. Not as dangerous as high school football, but then, what is?

I made the mistake of reading. You and your attitude are the very reason there is such a great rift between these two communities. You are a fool and an ass.

I actually find it very odd, this notion that there *are* two communities.

LOGOS, for them what don't know him, is a Knight of the Middle Kingdom, a former Earl Marshal, and many years ago served as Marshal in Charge of Pennsic.

I'm LOGOS's squire, and this year had the honor of taking the field with the Midrealm unbelted champions, as an alternate. This year, at Pennsic, LOGOS and I were both in the final four of the first Cut-and-Thrust tourney there. Both of the other final-four places are authorized in rattan, and at least one of them fought in more than half of the rattan battles.

Fighting is fighting, at least where I come from. Honestly, I don't understand the division, nor the tension. Seems to me like a lot of ego-driven, dumb show.

Johno wrote:

iomtalach wrote:Yeeeah...

LOGOS, good call. Your original question has been illustrated STRONGLY in the last two pages.

It does really seem that the heavy community has a strong element of people that look at C&T and say:

"Pussies! Too dangerous!"

So...I'm going to go back to the one heavy at a time conversion process.

Heavies are timid, scared creatures terrified of having to learn a new thing, but with gentle care, they can learn. And have great fun doing it. You just have to be gentle, and not bark at them. They pout. And dig in their heels, as stubborn as mules, about the one true way.

But with proper, gentle care, they can really, truly become champions. I believe this.

Anyway, I'm off to teach my MMA class for the night. Got my jaw dislocated twice last week by a cute young lady. Dangerous sport. Oughta be banned. People can get hurt. Not as dangerous as high school football, but then, what is?

I made the mistake of reading. You and your attitude are the very reason there is such a great rift between these two communities. You are a fool and an ass.

Why? Cause he sounds just like you, without the "We should really ban heavy, because the original sport in the SCA was nothing like heavy. It was rapier, really".

have seen two major criticisms about C&T:
1. It's too dangerous to hit people with steel

-The controlled level of force used in it makes it pretty difficult to hurt someone. You have a perf-plated helmet (Some use modified fencing helms but not me), elbow/knee pads/cup and you don't "need" anything but demi gauntlets but...in a very embarassing moment for me I hit a blocking opponet in the thumb joint and broke their finger. Since then I always wear some form of full gauntlet and highly recommend anyone I fight also wears a full gauntlet.

Besides that you are also wearing a pierce resistant coat (like in rapier) along with a gorget. You're actually really safe unless someone goes nuts and slams their blade into you with dumbly excessive force. Even then you're just looking at a nice, deep bruise like in heavy.

2. People don't hit hard enough

When you consider that people are fighting in civilian attire and not war gear (clothes, maybe a leather jerkin..and not chain/plate) it makes more sense. A draw cut with a sharp sword will cut deeply into the flesh. Just run a nice. kitchen knife over a ham and watch what happens.

Obviously, both viewpoints can't be right.

So here's your chance - I only ask the following when you comment:
Have you seen C&T? Lately?

Sure have, did it a few weeks ago and will be doing it again in Thursday.

Is it permitted in your area? If so, is there a requirement for historical study or at peer pressure for it?

It is permitted but not alot of people do it really. I know of about 4-5? that I've actually met. I'm sure there is plenty more though.

Have you actually done C&T?

Yup.

Have you studied any WMA? Outside of the SCA?

Just manuals.


Personally, the biggest draw for me is how much more "real" it feels then doing simply heavy or simply rapier. You really have complete use of your weapon. My teacher Ursus and I have been practicing with a "Check" system where when you are in a situation where an opponet can pommel strike/throw you etc he yells check and you either acknowledge it or let them do it. This is just an experiment but is very interesting.

The balance of a metal sword is much different then my rattan sword. With rattan the weight is a 360 degree thing..with the sword the weight very decidedly lays on its edges. Many of the blows I throw in heavy would end up hitting at a weird angle or hit flat when thrown with a more realistic weapon. There is also no bounce with a metal sword. I realized after doing C&T a bit that many of my techniques in heavy grew upon relying on the bounce back of a blow thrown with rattan.


In the end its just another exciting and new thing to be brought into the SCA. After fighting with friends and other people I can see it becoming the new hit thing drawing in both heavy fighters and rapier and prompting research into period manuals, techniques and more. Also being able to strike the hand and below the knee adds alot of of new techniques into the game.

I forsee the armor standards for it increasing to full gauntlets, metal elbows/knees (as opposed to plastic) and full metal helms with perf plate.

We're hardly being fair to each other. We all come from different cultures and martial backgrounds. We all have something of value, and it's rude to deny that. The division between the armored combat community and the fencing community is unfortunate and will continue to cause trouble on AA and on the field.

I am a cadet and a squire. I have a world of fun regardless of what kind of weapon I am holding. I find that the two fighting cultures complement each other. My rapier work is fantastic for my spear work. The much larger heavy battles test my awareness beyond what I can find in a rpiaer battle. Power generation, control, and application are things both groups have to manage, even if they are looking for different end results.

C&T is in the middle of this division beacuse it hasn't developed its identity yet. Is it a heavy game? Is it a fencing game? Is it something altogether unique? Why does it have to be any of those? A Knight, and Don (or Warder), and a non-SCA combatant can all come to the game with different ideas, experience, and abilities. They won't fight the same, but they can all enjoy a game which MAY offer to serve as a middle ground. Or maybe they decide this game isn't for them. What's wrong with that? If it isn't fun, don't force yourself to do it. If it is fun, make sure other people have fun, too.

cfournier wrote:I actually find it very odd, this notion that there *are* two communities.

Sadly, my friend, anyone can FORCE two communities to exist simply by asserting the existance of the second one themselves.

I actually see at least 3 separate communities, with some movement between them.

There's two camps of people who are just AGAINST something with a rabid fervor that no reasoned argument will cure. One of the two hates rattan with a passion; the other hates steel. Sure, its a little more complex, but who cares? Those are SMALL camps.

Most of the SCA is, knowingly or not, in the big camp with us and thinks that fighting is great, regardless of what you use. Every year some of these people walk off the rapier list to learn rattan spear and have a blast. Some others set down the rattan for a few hours each week to learn steel. Many are knights already. Many aren't, but will be well rounded in both rattan and steel combat by the time they are. Some will be awesome, regardless of what weapon they use.

I realized just about a year ago that I'd moved from one of those small camps into the larger comunity. I was talking to students at practice and blurted out something anti-rattan that was, in hindsight, incredibly stupid. Then I saw that fully half the faces looked angry cause I'd insulted them. Then I watched two of them use techniques we'd discussed for steel on the rattan field and I knew I was an arsehat.

4 months ago I stood on the side fo a large war practice waiting to talk to our EM abotu some possible experimental weapons for C&T, a heavier longsword and something else. At the waterbreak, a crowd of armored guys of all ranks and experience levels crowded around to heft the new sword. All were interested, most wanted to try it. Some didn't. Only one condemned me as a heretic [literally].

Many asked "can this be used safely?" After watching a few passes, they were surprised, but agreed. No one was a hater. [my kids cringe when I talk like that]

They were all part of the big, healthy SCA community, not the two smaller camps. If I watch my tongue, I can stay part of that big camp.

Or I can be an arsehat again. My choice.


Now, just a few days ago, Johno and Balin50 [I think, sorry if I cite the wrong guy] both agreed that some of the weapons and harness combinations available under C&T are "knightly," and therefore using those weapons etc. can be considered "knightly behavior." It was the logical conclusion to a relatively calm discussion. We may not agree on much, but who ever thought we'd agree on that? I can't say for certin which camp they're in, but *if* they aren't in the big one, then I think they certainly could move towards it. They may even get there quicker than I did.

I hope someday we have *just* your one community, CFournier

Marco

cfournier wrote:I actually find it very odd, this notion that there *are* two communities.
...
Fighting is fighting, at least where I come from. Honestly, I don't understand the division, nor the tension. Seems to me like a lot of ego-driven, dumb show.

Bravo. There's a feast out there, and the attendees are fighting over the proper fork to use.

Alex Baird wrote:Bravo. There's a feast out there, and the attendees are fighting over the proper fork to use.

It's the small one on the left.

Victorian.

You can be very medieval in your CUT&Thrust kit. My kit is a sugar loaf great helm (with perf visor) a Teutonic Knights tabbard, metal elbows/knees/gorget and I fight with a longsword.

Most of the people doing it right now are rapier people and because rapier is more about clothing..most don't look like the archetype of a medieval knight/warrior.

I love the pot calling the kettle black in these threads.


I am still waiting to discuss the amazing percision.

I seriously want to be Randy Packer when I grow up.

Leo Medii wrote:I love the pot calling the kettle black in these threads.


I am still waiting to discuss the amazing percision.

When you can snatch this pebble from my hand, grasshopper, you will know of this 'precision'.

Leo Medii wrote:I love the pot calling the kettle black in these threads.


I am still waiting to discuss the amazing percision.

Before we get to that Leo why don't you explain to us how any untrained fighter of any style is simply naturally precise in their actions? Is it the weapon that creates precision or the man who wields it?

Frankly you are just being a jackass about it. I have given you my respects brother Leo but you seem to be the most anti SCA rattan fighting KSCA that has ever been lucky enough to have someone strap a white belt around your hips. Maybe they should have thought harder on it before doing that or better yet you should have thought harder on it before accepting it. Perhaps you are knightly in appearance but you seem to have very little respect for fellow practitioners of the combat style you were knighted for.

Dauyd wrote:

DukeAvery wrote:No idea what you are talking about.

Dauyd wrote:

DukeAvery wrote:I've been fighting for nearly a quarter-century and I've seen very little bloodshed in sca combat, certainly nothing like

"Normal bouts include bruises and bloodshed. "

Of course, we go to different practices.

Maeryk wrote:

DukeAvery wrote:SCA heavy combat is intended to be as approximately as dangerous as a well run high school sports program (as in the US, which I state for reference only). I'll steer my kingdom and kids away from blood sports, and I thank you for the information.

Regards,

Avery

Yes, and people bleed, and die in high school sports programs. People bleed in SCA heavy combat, as well.

Not intentionally. And people don't (often) bleed intentionally in WMA either. But it happens. Just like it happens in SCA heavy.

You know, if you're going to misquote somebody it is much more effective if you don't actually include the real quote in the post...

Ookaaaay....

Actually... you didn't look back to where the quote was taken. Avery got it right.

Johno wrote:

Leo Medii wrote:I love the pot calling the kettle black in these threads.


I am still waiting to discuss the amazing percision.

Before we get to that Leo why don't you explain to us how any untrained fighter of any style is simply naturally precise in their actions? Is it the weapon that creates precision or the man who wields it?

It is a fact that some people are naturally gifted with dexterity and strength. There are naturals at combat, and that can not be denied. It is possible that an untrained "natural" can best a well trained "common" (and I mean common by saying someone of normal to less than normal dexterity and other martial factors), heck...it isn't "possible" I've seen it myself on several different occasions. I've faced black belts at schools where I can't believe they have achieved a black belt and black belts who are deadly artists in the SAME SCHOOL. So...it IS possible to be a natually gifted artisan in the realm of combat. I've seen it, and I know others have in the realm of SCA combat. I've seen combat naturals who pick up a sword and in a month are giving SCA knights runs for thier money. I've seen people who have been fighting YEARS and simply can not fight thier way out of a wet paper sack.

Now, on to the meat of the discussion. It isn't a weapon that makes a true warrior. The warrior makes the weapon a part of himself. A deadly extension of his will and art. A real warrior can pick up any item and make it into a instrument of death. They can immedietly guage range, speed, distance, weight and power of an item in seconds from the honing of thier body and mind into a predatory processor. There is NO weapon or instrument, JUST the intent and means. Precision is the preadatory instinct honed by natural selection and knowledge. Some have it, some can be taught it, most will never have it.

Johno wrote:Frankly you are just being a jackass about it. I have given you my respects brother Leo but you seem to be the most anti SCA rattan fighting KSCA that has ever been lucky enough to have someone strap a white belt around your hips. Maybe they should have thought harder on it before doing that or better yet you should have thought harder on it before accepting it. Perhaps you are knightly in appearance but you seem to have very little respect for fellow practitioners of the combat style you were knighted for.

There are many interesting tales of my being given the accolade of knighthood. Many rumors and such I have been privy to over the years. Some are insulting, some funny, some dead serious and some Aurthurian in nature. I will NOT lie however and say it was not a goal or desire to be amoung those I saw as hard and brave men, those who came when called by thier crown, who took an oath that was both lovely and powerful to hear that brought pride to my chest and tears to my eyes since I first heard it in 1993 when I came to my first SCA event. If one has never seen the oath of a Midrealm knight it is a thing to behold, and one that is ever so hard to upkeep due to its harsh and relentless whip to make one a better and honorable person, to make one a first amoung equals. I will never forget the day I took that oath to every subject, every person of my Kingdom. Because of that oath, I am bound to them all, and they are to have my love and protection all the days I walk the earth. Perhaps I am wrong in my understanding of the oath I took to my Kingdom, but I did not take it to protect only one portion of my kingdoms populace, but all of them, and most especially the weak and those who can not speak for or defend themselves. I am not anti-rattan. All those who know me know that I LOVE the rattan lists, and the rattan battlefield. I own a fine array of garb, and bring a garb bag as big as an armor trunk to events, yet I usually attend court in my armor because I am drug off the listfield by my king. I LOVE the comraderie that is rattan. The smell of it burning in the air from a dance that only those in the helms can understand. The brothers and sisters that are created by the bonds of martial life that are beyond what people outside of said creation simply can never understand. Oh no Sir, by no means am I anti-rattan.
However, I will speak the truth as I see it. I could do no less and consider myself both a man of honour or knight of my kingdom. I can not turn a blind eye to the plight of other combatants in my land and see them debased and called lesser. To see students of arts of war considered as nothing more than distractions from the egos of vain men reeks of disdainful pride to the detriment of the growth and vibrance of the kingdoms as a whole. I stand not aside and let these goodly practitioners of the arts of war and combat be cast in such a rude and base disdain that is not only underserved but unwarranted.
A goodly freind and man whom I respect beyond bounds for his knowledge and insight on knighthood once put up a picture of me on a site of his with the caption on it "The Real Deal". It was one of the most touching and remembered things I have ever seen considering my elevation to the rank of KSCA. I work every day to be worthy of the oath I took to my Kingdom. Perhaps it was luck, perhaps it was something else. If my crown ever found me unworthy, they need only ask for my belt and as I am thier servant it is thier's.
However. I do not need a belt, or crown, or titles of any kind to be a knight. I need not these things for men to listen to my words, to follow my commands, or join with me in great deeds for my kingdom. Men follow me because I have earned thier respect and because I have earned thier love. It is not something that can be demanded by title, belt, crown or birthright. Respect is something that is earned when wanted and can be easily tossed and spent with base and crass action. I respect a great many of the knights I have met in the SCA, for thier service, for thier knowledge, thier devotion to kingdom, devotion to grow the society, and then for thier fighting. There are some however, who have lost my repsect as well, as there is in all social things.

If you believe that SCA Knighthood is simply about who is the most kick ass rattan swinger you are correct. You and I do not see SCA Order of the Chivalry in the same way. At all.