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Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:21 am
by iomtalach
Johno wrote:iomtalach wrote:Yeeeah...
LOGOS, good call. Your original question has been illustrated STRONGLY in the last two pages.
It does really seem that the heavy community has a strong element of people that look at C&T and say:
"Pussies! Too dangerous!"
So...I'm going to go back to the one heavy at a time conversion process.
Heavies are timid, scared creatures terrified of having to learn a new thing, but with gentle care, they can learn. And have great fun doing it. You just have to be gentle, and not bark at them. They pout. And dig in their heels, as stubborn as mules, about the one true way.
But with proper, gentle care, they can really, truly become champions. I believe this.
Anyway, I'm off to teach my MMA class for the night. Got my jaw dislocated twice last week by a cute young lady. Dangerous sport. Oughta be banned. People can get hurt. Not as dangerous as high school football, but then, what is?
I made the mistake of reading. You and your attitude are the very reason there is such a great rift between these two communities. You are a fool and an ass.
Quite likely.
But I'm curious as to exactly what you mean by
1. Me
and
2. My Attitude
being the reason their is a great rift between these two communities.
I mean, c'mon, if you are going to call me a Fool and an Ass in public, please have the courtesy to explain in detail, so that I might change. You've taken the responsibility to call me out, take the responsibility of helping me be better.
I always listen.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:47 am
by Uadahlrich
Suzerain wrote:B. Amos wrote:Suzerain wrote:you appear to be imagining that every bout results in the arterial spurting of cloven helms and shattered armour, blades severing man, beast or duck alike in an orgy of sharpened steel and bloodlust.
I have seen that British WMA movie, the one with the black knight in it, that is exactly what it is like
God, that documentary was brutal.
Yea, no way would they have made it that way for the sake of "sensationalism".
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:25 am
by Uadahlrich
Knightly said Sir William, aka Sir Kerian, aka Sir Leo.
You have my respect and I am humbled by your virtue.
He's not called "The Lion Of The Middle" for nothing.
Now, if we could only get you into 16thC German.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:36 am
by Uadahlrich
Have you seen C&T? Yes
Lately? Tournament of the Guilded Pony at Pennsic 38. I helped Marshal.
Is it permitted in your area? Yes. YAY!
If so, is there a requirement for historical study or at peer pressure for it? Yes!
Have you actually done C&T? Yes, but not for a while due to a work injury last year and a shoulder that's showing it's years.
Have you studied any WMA? Yes
Outside of the SCA? Yes but mostly manuals. HAven't been able to make many seminars due to work and finances.
There is no "movement" that I am aware of from people involved in C&T to try and usurp anything from SCA Rattan. Nor to attempt to move the SCA towards rebated steel combat instead of rattan. If anyone has any evidence of that I would be interested in seeing it. As there are no plans or designs to move C&T onto the melee field that I have ever heard of. Not during my years as deputy to our KRM nor my years as KRM.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:06 am
by Jon Barber
Johno wrote: [ I have given you my respects brother Leo but you seem to be the most anti SCA rattan fighting KSCA that has ever been lucky enough to have someone strap a white belt around your hips. Maybe they should have thought harder on it before doing that or better yet you should have thought harder on it before accepting it. Perhaps you are knightly in appearance but you seem to have very little respect for fellow practitioners of the combat style you were knighted for.
Excellent. We have reached where I knew this conversation was always headed.
Jason - well said.
Randy - good luck with that.
Johnathan - people judge you based on your behavior here.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:42 am
by DeCalmont
If this man is not the stuff of knighthood than there is no such thing. Leo is a driving force of chivalry within the SCA as are several others on this board. He inspires, leads, and teaches. I can say all of this and I have never physically met the man. We as a group are fortunate that he and others step up the game and show us all what we can do if we only apply ourselves.
Leo Medii wrote:Johno wrote:Leo Medii wrote:I love the pot calling the kettle black in these threads.
I am still waiting to discuss the amazing percision.
Before we get to that Leo why don't you explain to us how any untrained fighter of any style is simply naturally precise in their actions? Is it the weapon that creates precision or the man who wields it?
It is a fact that some people are naturally gifted with dexterity and strength. There are naturals at combat, and that can not be denied. It is possible that an untrained "natural" can best a well trained "common" (and I mean common by saying someone of normal to less than normal dexterity and other martial factors), heck...it isn't "possible" I've seen it myself on several different occasions. I've faced black belts at schools where I can't believe they have achieved a black belt and black belts who are deadly artists in the SAME SCHOOL. So...it IS possible to be a natually gifted artisan in the realm of combat. I've seen it, and I know others have in the realm of SCA combat. I've seen combat naturals who pick up a sword and in a month are giving SCA knights runs for thier money. I've seen people who have been fighting YEARS and simply can not fight thier way out of a wet paper sack.
Now, on to the meat of the discussion. It isn't a weapon that makes a true warrior. The warrior makes the weapon a part of
himself. A deadly extension of his will and art. A real warrior can pick up any item and make it into a instrument of death. They can immedietly guage range, speed, distance, weight and power of an item in seconds from the honing of thier body and mind into a predatory processor. There is NO weapon or instrument, JUST the intent and means. Precision is the preadatory instinct honed by natural selection and knowledge. Some have it, some can be taught it, most will never have it.
Johno wrote:Frankly you are just being a jackass about it. I have given you my respects brother Leo but you seem to be the most anti SCA rattan fighting KSCA that has ever been lucky enough to have someone strap a white belt around your hips. Maybe they should have thought harder on it before doing that or better yet you should have thought harder on it before accepting it. Perhaps you are knightly in appearance but you seem to have very little respect for fellow practitioners of the combat style you were knighted for.
There are many interesting tales of my being given the accolade of knighthood. Many rumors and such I have been privy to over the years. Some are insulting, some funny, some dead serious and some Aurthurian in nature. I will NOT lie however and say it was not a goal or desire to be amoung those I saw as hard and brave men, those who came when called by thier crown, who took an oath that was both lovely and powerful to hear that brought pride to my chest and tears to my eyes since I first heard it in 1993 when I came to my first SCA event. If one has never seen the oath of a Midrealm knight it is a thing to behold, and one that is ever so hard to upkeep due to its harsh and relentless whip to make one a better and honorable person, to make one a first amoung equals. I will never forget the day I took that oath to every subject, every person of my Kingdom. Because of that oath, I am bound to them all, and they are to have my love and protection all the days I walk the earth. Perhaps I am wrong in my understanding of the oath I took to my Kingdom, but I did not take it to protect only one portion of my kingdoms populace, but all of them, and most especially the weak and those who can not speak for or defend themselves. I am not anti-rattan. All those who know me know that I LOVE the rattan lists, and the rattan battlefield. I own a fine array of garb, and bring a garb bag as big as an armor trunk to events, yet I usually attend court in my armor because I am drug off the listfield by my king. I LOVE the comraderie that is rattan. The smell of it burning in the air from a dance that only those in the helms can understand. The brothers and sisters that are created by the bonds of martial life that are beyond what people outside of said creation simply can never understand. Oh no Sir, by no means am I anti-rattan.
However, I will speak the truth as I see it. I could do no less and consider myself both a man of honour or knight of my kingdom. I can not turn a blind eye to the plight of other combatants in my land and see them debased and called lesser. To see students of arts of war considered as nothing more than distractions from the egos of vain men reeks of disdainful pride to the detriment of the growth and vibrance of the kingdoms as a whole. I stand not aside and let these goodly practitioners of the arts of war and combat be cast in such a rude and base disdain that is not only underserved but unwarranted.
A goodly freind and man whom I respect beyond bounds for his knowledge and insight on knighthood once put up a picture of me on a site of his with the caption on it "The Real Deal". It was one of the most touching and remembered things I have ever seen considering my elevation to the rank of KSCA. I work every day to be worthy of the oath I took to my Kingdom. Perhaps it was luck, perhaps it was something else. If my crown ever found me unworthy, they need only ask for my belt and as I am thier servant it is thier's.
However. I do not need a belt, or crown, or titles of any kind to be a knight. I need not these things for men to listen to my words, to follow my commands, or join with me in great deeds for my kingdom. Men follow me because I have earned thier respect and because I have earned thier love. It is not something that can be demanded by title, belt, crown or birthright. Respect is something that is earned when wanted and can be easily tossed and spent with base and crass action. I respect a great many of the knights I have met in the SCA, for thier service, for thier knowledge, thier devotion to kingdom, devotion to grow the society, and then for thier fighting. There are some however, who have lost my repsect as well, as there is in all social things.
If you believe that SCA Knighthood is simply about who is the most kick ass rattan swinger you are correct. You and I do not see SCA Order of the Chivalry in the same way. At all.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:34 am
by Steve S.
And....not one serious accident. Not one.
We've had broken blades, failed masks...no serious accidents.
None.
Randy, I think this is at the heart of it.
The SCA is just, well,
anal about safety and bureaucracy.
For some reason, the SCA tends to be hyper-sensitive to the "worst case scenario".
I think this stems from two things:
First, there seems to be a sense of almost paranoia concerning lawsuits.
Secondly, there are lots of people who, in an effort to give an aura of "officialness" and "importantness" to their efforts in the Society they have formed a morass of paperwork and bureaucracy around it. I mean, surely your corner of the SCA must be important if it requires lots of paperwork to participate!
Just take a look at what it takes to sign in to an event! It's almost as bad as a trip to the DMV! What should be a transaction as simple as going to the local Renaissance Festival where you pay your money and get a receipt involves filling out a waiver form. And if you have children, you get to fill them out for each of them, too. And for what? As I have been told on numerous occasions, all these waivers are merely an illusion of legal safety anyway and would not stand up to any serious legal challenge, as you can't sign away your right to sue people for negligence.
The bottom line is, the SCA is highly, highly risk averse to start with.
On top of this, you are faced with the problem that there are a lot of people who seem to feel threatened when new activities come to town. Oh, I guess it was OK (barely) to have a few "wire weenies" off in the corner doing "fencing" while dressed up as the three musketeers.
But if you have people dressed up like real knights and fighting like real knights using real, though rebated swords, as, say, the folks at Regia Anglorum do, suddenly I think a whole lot of people dressed in a tabbards and oversized leather belts holding sticks of rattan are going to worry that their limelight is somewhat diminished.
And if you don't watch out, these people will do the same thing to fencing that they did to combat archery. They will bury it under so many ridiculous, ever changing rules, all in the name of safety, that it will be a farce.
I think SCA rattan combat is awesome. I hope to be back into it by October. I think the rules and equipment of SCA rattan combat allow for a very vigorous combat without intense discipline in order to insure a fairly safe activity.
But I also think that rebated steel combat is awesome. There are many groups that already do it outside of the SCA. I see no reason why such an activity could not happen inside of the SCA.
It sounds to me like this "Cut and Thrust" is a logical expansion of rapier combat, to make it more like real sword fighting and less like fencing.
I think it is great. And since nobody is being forced to do it, I really don't see why other people who aren't willing to take the risks associated with it are up in arms about it or would try to stop people who are willing to take those risks from doing so.
Steve
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:34 am
by Count Johnathan
Leo Medii wrote:Johno wrote:Frankly you are just being a jackass about it. I have given you my respects brother Leo but you seem to be the most anti SCA rattan fighting KSCA that has ever been lucky enough to have someone strap a white belt around your hips. Maybe they should have thought harder on it before doing that or better yet you should have thought harder on it before accepting it. Perhaps you are knightly in appearance but you seem to have very little respect for fellow practitioners of the combat style you were knighted for.
There are many interesting tales of my being given the accolade of knighthood. Many rumors and such I have been privy to over the years. Some are insulting, some funny, some dead serious and some Aurthurian in nature. I will NOT lie however and say it was not a goal or desire to be amoung those I saw as hard and brave men, those who came when called by thier crown, who took an oath that was both lovely and powerful to hear that brought pride to my chest and tears to my eyes since I first heard it in 1993 when I came to my first SCA event. If one has never seen the oath of a Midrealm knight it is a thing to behold, and one that is ever so hard to upkeep due to its harsh and relentless whip to make one a better and honorable person, to make one a first amoung equals. I will never forget the day I took that oath to every subject, every person of my Kingdom. Because of that oath, I am bound to them all, and they are to have my love and protection all the days I walk the earth. Perhaps I am wrong in my understanding of the oath I took to my Kingdom, but I did not take it to protect only one portion of my kingdoms populace, but all of them, and most especially the weak and those who can not speak for or defend themselves. I am not anti-rattan. All those who know me know that I LOVE the rattan lists, and the rattan battlefield. I own a fine array of garb, and bring a garb bag as big as an armor trunk to events, yet I usually attend court in my armor because I am drug off the listfield by my king. I LOVE the comraderie that is rattan. The smell of it burning in the air from a dance that only those in the helms can understand. The brothers and sisters that are created by the bonds of martial life that are beyond what people outside of said creation simply can never understand. Oh no Sir, by no means am I anti-rattan.
However, I will speak the truth as I see it. I could do no less and consider myself both a man of honour or knight of my kingdom. I can not turn a blind eye to the plight of other combatants in my land and see them debased and called lesser. To see students of arts of war considered as nothing more than distractions from the egos of vain men reeks of disdainful pride to the detriment of the growth and vibrance of the kingdoms as a whole. I stand not aside and let these goodly practitioners of the arts of war and combat be cast in such a rude and base disdain that is not only underserved but unwarranted.
A goodly freind and man whom I respect beyond bounds for his knowledge and insight on knighthood once put up a picture of me on a site of his with the caption on it "The Real Deal". It was one of the most touching and remembered things I have ever seen considering my elevation to the rank of KSCA. I work every day to be worthy of the oath I took to my Kingdom. Perhaps it was luck, perhaps it was something else. If my crown ever found me unworthy, they need only ask for my belt and as I am thier servant it is thier's.
However. I do not need a belt, or crown, or titles of any kind to be a knight. I need not these things for men to listen to my words, to follow my commands, or join with me in great deeds for my kingdom. Men follow me because I have earned thier respect and because I have earned thier love. It is not something that can be demanded by title, belt, crown or birthright. Respect is something that is earned when wanted and can be easily tossed and spent with base and crass action. I respect a great many of the knights I have met in the SCA, for thier service, for thier knowledge, thier devotion to kingdom, devotion to grow the society, and then for thier fighting. There are some however, who have lost my repsect as well, as there is in all social things.
If you believe that SCA Knighthood is simply about who is the most kick ass rattan swinger you are correct. You and I do not see SCA Order of the Chivalry in the same way. At all.
You see Leo you write these eloquent and beautiful things because they are in your heart and you seem to live eat breathe sleep and dream Chivalric virtue. Yet sometimes these small and less than pleasant things come creeping out of you that are disrespectful, blindly arrogant and prideful that does your chivalric nature no justice. In your pride and attempt to show those you defend your might and strength of character you scorn them yourself and call them weak without seeing the insult of it.
If you see what you feel is an injustice or lacks truth, you know that you can and should say something about it and defend what you feel is right. For you to do that is certainly respectable but breaking away from the honorable defense of an injustice and slinging the random disdainful comment is very childish and unbecoming of someone who has such a strong sense of chivalry, tradition and a healthy respect for his peers. Never was there a truer statement made "Respect is something that is earned when wanted and can be easily tossed and spent with base and crass action."
I did not question your oath. I simply question the anti SCA rhetoric that sometimes comes out of you though you may not realize it when it happens. It seems very out of place with the rest of your character sir.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:37 am
by Maeryk
SHort form: If you disagree with Johno, you are "Anti SCA".
THerefore, if you disagree with Johno, you are "unchivalrous".
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:45 am
by Count Johnathan
iomtalach wrote:
Quite likely.
But I'm curious as to exactly what you mean by
1. Me
and
2. My Attitude
being the reason their is a great rift between these two communities.
I mean, c'mon, if you are going to call me a Fool and an Ass in public, please have the courtesy to explain in detail, so that I might change. You've taken the responsibility to call me out, take the responsibility of helping me be better.
I always listen.
You as in you, and your attitude. An attitude that is shared by some of the other non rattan focused participants who feel that being called a wire weenie is such a terrible insult but feel justified in making extremely rude comments about the styles of combat appreciated by others. As it is unfair and unkind and improper to lay a blanket over the rapier community and show them any disdain for the practice they enjoy it is just as improper to do the same to any other community and foolish to make any such comment that rattan fighters who face injury at every attempt to practice their sport are "timid, scared creatures terrified of having to learn a new thing"
A comment like that deserves nothing less than a label of being a fool and an ass.
You want to be better? Don't do that. Easy.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:47 am
by Maeryk
Johno wrote:iomtalach wrote:
Quite likely.
But I'm curious as to exactly what you mean by
1. Me
and
2. My Attitude
being the reason their is a great rift between these two communities.
I mean, c'mon, if you are going to call me a Fool and an Ass in public, please have the courtesy to explain in detail, so that I might change. You've taken the responsibility to call me out, take the responsibility of helping me be better.
I always listen.
You as in you, and your attitude. An attitude that is shared by some of the other non rattan focused participants who feel that being called a wire weenie is such a terrible insult but feel justified in making extremely rude comments about the styles of combat appreciated by others. As it is unfair and unkind and improper to lay a blanket over the rapier community and show them any disdain for the practice they enjoy it is just as improper to do the same to any other community and foolish to make any such comment that rattan fighters who face injury at every attempt to practice their sport "timid, scared creatures terrified of having to learn a new thing"
A comment like that deserves nothing less than a label of being a fool and an ass.
You want to be better? Don't do that. Easy.
Clearly, if Rattan causes injury, Johno, we MUST ban it. I mean.. I watch rattan fights and I can easily see where massive concussions, broken joints, even death can occur with just a tiny mistake.
Looks like it's time to ban Rattan! It's DANGEROUS!
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 12:00 pm
by J.G.Elmslie
iomtalach wrote:But I'm curious as to exactly what you mean by
1. Me
and
2. My Attitude
I always listen.
Personally, I suspect it might just be an inability to understand the concepts of sarcasm and irony.
(irony, it's sort of like silvery and goldy, but with occasional rust. is that right? )
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:12 pm
by Count Johnathan
Suzerain wrote:iomtalach wrote:But I'm curious as to exactly what you mean by
1. Me
and
2. My Attitude
I always listen.
Personally, I suspect it might just be an inability to understand the concepts of sarcasm and irony.
(irony, it's sort of like silvery and goldy, but with occasional rust. is that right? )
I try to speak literally but occasionally sarcasm rears its head. Problem is that when I am sarcastic people take it literally and vice versa. Perhaps a lesson in between the lines for all of us. Written text has this problem.
This -->
doesn't seem to correct it.
I'll go back to whacking folks with my 1 inch flat sticks now.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:15 pm
by MJBlazek
Johno wrote:
I'll go back to whacking folks with my 1 inch flat sticks now.
Only 1 inch! Those will never pass the Marshals!
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:24 pm
by Maeryk
Johno wrote:Suzerain wrote:iomtalach wrote:But I'm curious as to exactly what you mean by
1. Me
and
2. My Attitude
I always listen.
Personally, I suspect it might just be an inability to understand the concepts of sarcasm and irony.
(irony, it's sort of like silvery and goldy, but with occasional rust. is that right? )
I try to speak literally but occasionally sarcasm rears its head. Problem is that when I am sarcastic people take it literally and vice versa. Perhaps a lesson in between the lines for all of us. Written text has this problem.
This -->
doesn't seem to correct it.
I'll go back to whacking folks with my 1 inch flat sticks now.
Sounds dangerous.. I think that needs to be banned.
SOmeone could get hurt.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:25 pm
by Leo Medii
I think, if I am to beat my head against this wall, that I should consider putting a helm on first.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 1:27 pm
by Saritor
Leo Medii wrote:I think, if I am to beat my head against this wall, that I should consider putting a helm on first.
That could be awkward with that new CotT helm you were pictured with. Imagine how embarrassing it would be to have to require assistance and a crowbar to get your beak out of the wall afterward.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:18 pm
by Allen Reed
Alex Baird wrote:DukeAvery wrote:All tools fail under heavy use, some more gracefully than others. Rattan fails very gracefully, and it has a large (1.25") (although curved) surface area. This, plus its flex, makes it ideal for mock combat where you are trying to balance fierceness with safety. Steel usually breaks when it fails, creating a very dangerous situation until the fight is stopped. You just can't abuse a foil the way you can a rattan sword.
Your Grace,
I urge you to examine the newer sword simulators being used for C&T. They are significantly different from collegiate fencing foils of old. Although I have seen breakage, they have been at flaws in the forging or at the tang, and flat breaks. But far more common is that the metal develops a soft spot through bending fatigue, and the blade fails by folding, not snapping.
edit to add: I've probably seen a lot more failures than most, because I was the Kingdom Rapier marshal for a time, and sought out examples for reference. I've seen about 4 breaks and a couple of dozen folded blades.
Don't forget foil was used in period to refer to a rebated sword.
Allen
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:34 pm
by rob(in)
Leo Medii wrote:I think, if I am to beat my head against this wall, that I should consider putting a helm on first.
apparently your detractors feel rattan blinders should also be required equipment...
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:38 pm
by Dauyd
Kilkenny wrote:Dauyd wrote:DukeAvery wrote:No idea what you are talking about.
Dauyd wrote:DukeAvery wrote:I've been fighting for nearly a quarter-century and I've seen very little bloodshed in sca combat, certainly nothing like
"Normal bouts include bruises and bloodshed. "
Of course, we go to different practices.
Maeryk wrote:DukeAvery wrote:SCA heavy combat is intended to be as approximately as dangerous as a well run high school sports program (as in the US, which I state for reference only). I'll steer my kingdom and kids away from blood sports, and I thank you for the information.
Regards,
Avery
Yes, and people bleed, and die in high school sports programs. People bleed in SCA heavy combat, as well.
Not intentionally. And people don't (often) bleed intentionally in WMA either. But it happens. Just like it happens in SCA heavy.
You know, if you're going to misquote somebody it is much more effective if you don't actually include the real quote in the post...
Ookaaaay....
Actually... you didn't look back to where the quote was taken. Avery got it right.
In that case, my apologies to Duke Avery.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 2:50 pm
by Dauyd
Steve -SoFC- wrote:
It sounds to me like this "Cut and Thrust" is a logical expansion of rapier combat, to make it more like real sword fighting and less like fencing.
Minor quibble here-
C&T isn't rapier fencing. They are actually 2 very different styles of swordfighting- even the swords themselves are different.
Standard Rapier fencing is just as "real" as Cut and Thrust is.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:13 pm
by LOGOS
Dauyd wrote:
Minor quibble here-
C&T isn't rapier fencing. They are actually 2 very different styles of swordfighting- even the swords themselves are different.
Standard Rapier fencing is just as "real" as Cut and Thrust is.
Technically not true, C&T can be standard rapier with percussive cuts. (They're more common than supposed - check the treatises). We recognize that as a historical style for authorization. Darkwood bated rapier blades and several others are legal for C&T. While many do use weapons available other than rapiers, many do not.
In fact, I regreted not having a rapier with me to deal with a longsword wielder at the tourney at Pennsic. I should have been able to use the schiavona just fine, but fatique was setting in and I think I would have been better with the old standby...
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:27 pm
by Dauyd
Perhaps I worded that poorly-
I was referring more the the period practices than to the SCA ruleset.
In period, there were styles that used thrusts almost exclusively- just like we do in modern SCA rapier.
There were other styles that made primary use of cuts- just like the Cut and Thrust that is becoming popular in the SCA.
While under the same banner, C&T is NOT a movement towards more historical technique- it is an opportunity for other historical styles to be used that would be less effective or impractical under the normal ruleset.
Regular rapier fighting is just as accurate to it's style as C&T is to the styles being used there.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:53 pm
by Steve S.
I'm not trying to delve into the minutia of what is rapier fighting and what is cut and thrust, especially in a historical context because you can bet that the SCA implementation will never be historical.
The gist of what I, with only heavy fighting experience, am getting is this:
Instead of swishy-pokey fighting with metal swords, now we are getting into actual blows with metal swords that look more like swords and less like overgrown needles.
If I'm reading the direction things are going right, it sounds like it may not be long before I can fight "cut and thrust" with a rebated norman broadsword and historical Norman armour, with SCA-augmentation, of course.
Basically: armoured, rebated steel combat.
Steve
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:03 pm
by Saritor
Dauyd wrote:In period, there were styles that used thrusts almost exclusively- just like we do in modern SCA rapier.
There were other styles that made primary use of cuts- just like the Cut and Thrust that is becoming popular in the SCA.
But that's what LOGOS was referring to, I think.
Cuts in Fabris and Capo Ferro do exist, and are part of the style. The emphasis is on the thrust, it's true, but the cuts are still there. I've used purely "rapier" styles in C&T -- Fabris being my favorite -- with my heavy rapier blade.
C&T doesn't preclude the use of rapier -- it just allows for a wider range of period styles in addition to rapier play.
Finally, we can recreate what Silver could only twitch and foam about!
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:22 pm
by cfournier
Dauyd wrote:In period, there were styles that used thrusts almost exclusively- just like we do in modern SCA rapier.
...
Regular rapier fighting is just as accurate to it's style as C&T is to the styles being used there.
Let's make a bet. You can more carefully define a metric for what you mean by "almost exclusively" (a hard percentage), and then name a written text from the SCA period.
My wager is that you'll find that more of that text is spent discussing cuts (delivered and defended against) than your defined percentage!
While under the same banner, C&T is NOT a movement towards more historical technique- it is an opportunity for other historical styles to be used that would be less effective or impractical under the normal ruleset.
Here, I largely agree. Joachim Meyer's adaptation of traditional German swordplay to single-handed civilian sidearms, with a special focus on defending against thrust-oriented opponents, is *quite* difficult to use successfully under traditional SCA rapier rules. Not impossible, but definitely a hard road.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 7:24 pm
by Mr Parris
Steve -SoFC- wrote:I'm not trying to delve into the minutia of what is rapier fighting and what is cut and thrust, especially in a historical context because you can bet that the SCA implementation will never be historical.
The gist of what I, with only heavy fighting experience, am getting is this:
Instead of swishy-pokey fighting with metal swords, now we are getting into actual blows with metal swords that look more like swords and less like overgrown needles.
If I'm reading the direction things are going right, it sounds like it may not be long before I can fight "cut and thrust" with a rebated norman broadsword and historical Norman armour, with SCA-augmentation, of course.
Basically: armoured, rebated steel combat.
Steve
Those overgrown needles killed a lot of people, and also have existed for centuries before the common "fencing" period. A sword is a sword and there were overgrown-needle-men who could over come polearms, heavier swords, and even guns (if you believe Thibault.) Different swords were developed to meet different needs. Rapiers were court/civilian swords. You wouldn't have seen them on the battle field, but they spilled enough blood at home...where things were supposed to be peaceful.
You can definitely have your Norman kit now, if you like. You may have to hunt for the furniture, but the blades and armor exist. I've been dangling the idea in front of a very good friend of mine that is a Norman persona knight. I think it's working. Windrose armory has started making some gorgeous fencing helms along the lines of norman conicals and crusader's caps.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:42 pm
by Saritor
Mr Parris wrote:Rapiers were court/civilian swords. You wouldn't have seen them on the battle field, but they spilled enough blood at home...where things were supposed to be peaceful.
They did make some appearances on the battlefield...England in the Low Countries, for example. There's at least two sources I can think of swearing about how useless they were, and at least one being glad they were the exception, not the rule (Smythe in the latter case, I think).
But yes, by and large, not a good idea on the battlefield.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:42 pm
by J.G.Elmslie
Mr Parris wrote:Rapiers were court/civilian swords. You wouldn't have seen them on the battle field, but they spilled enough blood at home...
Gottfried Heinrich, Count of Pappenheim would likely like a word with you about that, in disagreement....
but that's rather taking the subject off on yet another tangent. so, erm, I'll be quiet. but it might well give you a source to go search around for and find some utterly irrelevant detail
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:43 pm
by Steve S.
Those overgrown needles killed a lot of people, and also have existed for centuries before the common "fencing" period. A sword is a sword and there were overgrown-needle-men who could over come polearms, heavier swords, and even guns (if you believe Thibault.) Different swords were developed to meet different needs. Rapiers were court/civilian swords. You wouldn't have seen them on the battle field, but they spilled enough blood at home...where things were supposed to be peaceful.
Make no mistake, I'm not disputing any of what you said.
I just find the era of 3-musketeers (and associated overgrown needle swords) tottaly un-medieval to my mindset.
It's just not my thing at all.
You can definitely have your Norman kit now, if you like. You may have to hunt for the furniture, but the blades and armor exist. I've been dangling the idea in front of a very good friend of mine that is a Norman persona knight. I think it's working. Windrose armory has started making some gorgeous fencing helms along the lines of norman conicals and crusader's caps.
As I said, Norman isn't my thing, either.
The point I'm getting at is it looks like this C&T is a move towards SCA sanctioned rebated steel combat in a broader medieval context than what you usually see in traditional SCA "rapier" combat.
Imagine a Combat of the Thirty with rebated steel.
Steve
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:43 pm
by Maeryk
Isn't it Oakeshott (sp?) who called damn near everything with a hilt and point a "rapier"?
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:54 pm
by J.G.Elmslie
Steve -SoFC- wrote:
Imagine a Combat of the Thirty with rebated steel.
Steve
if it were, then I
would travel down to Warkworth St Marys, take a hundred photographs of the 1350 Funeral effigy of John de Lyon, prepare a full harness, a batch of shields with arms, and travel over with it, do what the hell it takes to be authenticated for SCA
(will offers of giving good head do? ) and participate.
Maeryk wrote:Isn't it Oakeshott (sp?) who called damn near everything with a hilt and point a "rapier"?
I may be a heretic, but I rather feel that oakeshott was'nt actually as messiah-like as some people make out...
having handled quite a few of the originals in "records of the medieval sword", I'm rather left with a rather strained copy, packed full of sheaves of notes for each sword I've studied folded in among the pages, correcting oakeshott's mistakes, inaccuracies, and general differences.... :/
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:59 pm
by Mr Parris
I've heard some people muse about a COTT with steel. I bet it would pan out much like it currently does. Spectators would be speechless by the violence, and the participants would have the time of their lives. I cringe watching some of the fighters paste eachother, but it does look like fun. I only see smiles walking off the field.
I agree with the "Three Muskateers" being outside of the SCA's context. While I love the smallsword direction that swords were starting to take, it is definitely alien to the majority of the SCA's interest. Also by that point guns were becoming waaaay popular and making other field weapons obselete for anything but personal protection. I imagine that's part of the reason we stopped seeing so many cleavers (gross generalization) and instead saw more over grown needles (another generalization.)
And I will correct myself as others pointed out. Rapiers and their contemporaries were seen on the field, but they stopped serving as a standardized melee weapon. Like we saw in Japan, the sword became more and more a weapon of personal protection when melee became chaotic. I think cavalry (even up to the Napoleonic era and beyond) with sabres were the last use of swords as the primary weapon on the battle field.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:35 pm
by Dauyd
cfournier wrote:Dauyd wrote:In period, there were styles that used thrusts almost exclusively- just like we do in modern SCA rapier.
...
Regular rapier fighting is just as accurate to it's style as C&T is to the styles being used there.
Let's make a bet. You can more carefully define a metric for what you mean by "almost exclusively" (a hard percentage), and then name a written text from the SCA period.
My wager is that you'll find that more of that text is spent discussing cuts (delivered and defended against) than your defined percentage!
My main area of experience is in Capo Ferro:
116) The edge is of little moment, because I cannot strike with the edge in the said distance of the narrow
measure, without entirely uncovering myself and giving the measure and tempo to my adversary to
strike me, because of the compass of the arm and of the sword which I make, and although some
usefulness is found in the cut, nonetheless in the same measure in the very same tempo more can be
shown in the thrust.
16) OF THE CUT.
The cuts need to be done as if slicing, because in this manner one comes to strike with all of the debole,
because little by little one will come to cut with the sharpest part of the edge, and for this reason the cuts
that descend are more vigorous than those that stop above the waist, to such extent that the said upper and
lower parts are found to be more or less at apt measure to give slicing offenses.
Nonetheless, I don't disagree with your point. I think you will agree, though, that many of the later, especially Italian masters espoused a style that was based primarily on thrusting.
My only quibble was with the concept that Cut and thrust is somehow a movement towards "real" swordsmanship, which I disagree with completely.
Posted: Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:38 pm
by Leo Medii
Mr Parris wrote:I've heard some people muse about a COTT with steel. I bet it would pan out much like it currently does. Spectators would be speechless by the violence, and the participants would have the time of their lives. I cringe watching some of the fighters paste eachother, but it does look like fun. I only see smiles walking off the field.
And here, I always thought that was the look of joy!
Then again, I'm a lover of said violence, and would join happily in rebated steel in the SCA.