Cut and Thrust - Total BS or What?

[Tibbie Croser]

Dauyd, I think you put it well. Also, given that we already have interkingdom calibration differences in rattan and rapier, we have the potential for even more divergent calibration in Cut and Thrust, not only between but even within kingdoms.

These are not arguments against Cut and Thrust. Given its relative newness, I agree with kingdoms that want to start it out with relatively low force levels and then maybe increase those once safety is proven.

[Steve S.]

*I hope I'm not misrepresenting here.

Nope, you got me dead-on.

It looks to me like Cut and Thrust is an evolution of "classical" SCA Rapier combat. Classical SCA Rapier combat has always been, from what I've seen, been about "parrying and poking".

Cut and Thrust ups the ante by now allowing "cuts", with some vagueness about how much "percussiveness" can be applied while cutting someone. But when you watch the Youtube video, it's pretty clear that this is combat that involves hitting people, not just poking people, with rebated swords.

You're not far now from true rebated steel combat, and that's fine by me. Lots of organizations already do it.

Steve

[jester]

You're not far now from true rebated steel combat [snip]

Not far? How about already there? As I read the rules with my cynical mindset I see absolutely nothing that would prevent two men armored cap-a-pie from whaling away at each other with these. The 4th Gen Hanwei Practical Longswords are, so far as I'm aware, approved for C&T in some kingdoms. There's no maximum armor limit. If both participants are okay with the force levels and the marshal in charge doesn't feel matters have become unsafe then calibration isn't an issue. Presto - Armored combat with rebated steel weapons.

Funny, seven years ago I asked, on this forum, if the Rapier community had pulled the rug out from under the Rattan community (and we might have to start calling it Rattan rather than Armored in the coming years) because they were willing to innovate where the Rattan community insisted on refining. I'm continuing to watch this process with interest (and hoping the C&T guys get around to approving the 4th Gen Hanwei Practical Arming Sword).

[LOGOS]

You're not far now from true rebated steel combat [snip]

Not far? How about already there? As I read the rules with my cynical mindset I see absolutely nothing that would prevent two men armored cap-a-pie from whaling away at each other with these. The 4th Gen Hanwei Practical Longswords are, so far as I'm aware, approved for C&T in some kingdoms. There's no maximum armor limit. If both participants are okay with the force levels and the marshal in charge doesn't feel matters have become unsafe then calibration isn't an issue. Presto - Armored combat with rebated steel weapons.

Funny, seven years ago I asked, on this forum, if the Rapier community had pulled the rug out from under the Rattan community (and we might have to start calling it Rattan rather than Armored in the coming years) because they were willing to innovate where the Rattan community insisted on refining. I'm continuing to watch this process with interest (and hoping the C&T guys get around to approving the 4th Gen Hanwei Practical Arming Sword).

While the rules don't specifically say they can't, you can probably get away with it until someone is horrified and complains. I'm not talking out my ass here, it's happened.

I have a 4th Gen Hanwei - there's nothing magical about them except they're cheap - they bang up pretty fast from what I've heard. They don't handle better (or even as well in some cases) as exisiting legal longswords. Some people think they look more "longswordy". YMMV.

[Jon Barber]

It appears that Cut and Thrust may engender conflict between people who want to do it as unarmored combat with late-period civilian weapons and those who want to use heavier weapons and more (metal) armor. There's certainly the potential for disappointment and misunderstanding.

surely, the simplest solution to this is that the prerequisite for cut and thrust would be the dictated minumum safety standard, that additional protection is advised, and it is by the discretion of both participants to decline an opponent if protection is lacking...
if a participant wishes to fight wearing a facemask and underwear only, so be it.... but everyone else has the discretion to decline to fight with them.
if someone is using a longsword, and another mostly rapier, and feels that they dont have enough protection... they can decline to fight.

surely that's the simplest solution? ir is that far too close to common sense?

Some of us tried for that, but it didn't work out that way.

[Steve S.]

Jester:

Sounds good to me, man!

The day we see people dressed in knightly armour wielding steel swords is the day I'll be putting my sunshade up in front of the rapier field instead of the rattan field.

Steve

[Amanda M]

It will never happen.

[Maeryk]

It will never happen.

Precisely because it means Steve (and others) will move their sunshades.

[Amanda M]

I just think rattan enables us to do stuff in armor we can't do safely with steel and that's a ok with me.

[Mark G.]

It will never happen.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... ight=video

A year ago this weekend...

[Steve S.]

It will never happen.

The way it looks in the video posted earlier in this thread, you're already about 80% there with Cut and Thrust.

All it really needs at this point is more people fighting in real armour as opposed to heavily padded clothes and you're about 90% there.

Steve

[Steve S.]

Mark! That is AWESOME! I had no idea this sort of thing was going on in the SCA! That is bad-ass.

Isabella E:

Watch Mark's video. It has already happened.

Steve

[LOGOS]

It will never happen.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... ight=video

A year ago this weekend...

I wasn't going to bring it up, but Kevin has pretty much given me permission. Watch this video - all the way to the end where they clearly state that they are experimenting/demonstrating armor as worn.

The fall out from this fight contributed to ending the 29 year long SCA career of a man who is a double peer.

And yes, I count him as a good friend, so I am biased.

[Steve S.]

Has anyone considered lexan (clear, bullet-proof) visor inserts as opposed to perforated metal?

Steve

[Kilkenny]

I just think rattan enables us to do stuff in armor we can't do safely with steel and that's a ok with me.

It absolutely does. but that doesn't mean we won't see people in armour swinging steel swords at one another in the SCA. Indeed, as I believe has been linked - we already do...

[Steve S.]

The fall out from this fight contributed to ending the 29 year long SCA career of a man who is a double peer.

What happened???

Steve

[LOGOS]

PM sent.

[Maeryk]

Hit me up, too, as this is the sort of thing I'm interested in getting going locally. Would help to have any info I can going into it.

[Oswyn_de_Wulferton]

Has anyone considered lexan (clear, bullet-proof) visor inserts as opposed to perforated metal?

Steve

I have also heard of it being suggested as an alternative to bargrills. The biggest detriments (from what I can recall) were price (crazy expensive), durability (wasn't going to last as long as what was already used), failure characteristics, and lack of experience/equipment to form it for your average armourer.

[Steve S.]

I was thinking something along the lines of a stock piece of flat lexan mounted into a frame on the inside of the visor behind the eye slots. This way the would be replaceable.

Sheet lexan stock is not that expensive, and can be cut with a bandsaw.

Steve

[LOGOS]

Perf, or it's hand made historical equivalent, was historically used - sometimes added inside to existing occularia (I have a picture somwhere).

I'm personally a big fan of perf. I't pretty tough and you can disguise it.

[Dauyd]

Hit me up, too, as this is the sort of thing I'm interested in getting going locally. Would help to have any info I can going into it.

+1, please

[Alex Baird]

I was thinking something along the lines of a stock piece of flat lexan mounted into a frame on the inside of the visor behind the eye slots. This way the would be replaceable.

Sheet lexan stock is not that expensive, and can be cut with a bandsaw.

Steve

There have been olympic fencing masks of lexan, and with lexan inserts over the eyes. The big problem is that it scratches up quickly, and if it does break, it breaks in long, needlepointed shards.

[LOGOS]

The fall out from this fight contributed to ending the 29 year long SCA career of a man who is a double peer.

Let me repeat, that the fall out CONTRIBUTED and was not the sole cause. But it did contribute.

Just remember, not everyone sees everything the same way. What I think is totaly cool is anathema to others. This dichotomy is partly why I started this thread.

[FrauHirsch]

We originally started trying the Adrian Empire in the 90s because Caid was focused on foil fencing and we wanted to try some period techniques with rapiers. At that time, there was no period combat interest in the local SCA whatsoever.

Adria has 3 forms of combat: Rapier (light armor, light percussive cuts allowed), Cut and Thrust (a bit more armor requirements, solid helmet, and heavier blades) and Armored (heavy armor, all rebated steel weapons) for over 20 yrs with a very low injury rate, comprable to SCA combat.

I think the fear of injury factor is way overblown but for anything heavier than regular rapier blades, I would seriously require solid helms and a few more armor bits. Here are the different armor requirements in the Adrian Empire:

C. ARMOR: RAPIER COMBAT
1. Head
a. A three-weapons fencing mask or a fully enclosed helm with fencing mask type mesh. Some
fencing masks do not offer adequate throat protection. In this case, additional protection must be
added. Masks with snap-in bibs are not sufficient and require neck protection as well.
b. The back of the head must be covered with one-quarter-inch (1/4") of padded material or
equivalent. Rigid protection is recommended.
c. The openings on the visor shall not be wider than one-eighth-inch (1/8") in any direction.
d. Metal helms require a minimum of one-quarter-inch (1/4") of padding and chinstraps.
e. 18-gauge lobster tail helms are recommended, but not required.

2. Neck
a. A gorget of heavy or rigid material shall be used. Light leather or medium weight fabric with
rigid plates attached is also sufficient (See Gorget in the Glossary).
b. A dog-collar style gorget alone is not sufficient.

3. Body
a. A minimum of one-quarter-inch (1/4") thick quilted gambeson or leather buff coat is required.
b. Kidney protection is recommended, but not required for combatants 18 years of age and older.
Rigid kidney protection is required for combatants under the age of 18 years.

4. Arms and Legs
a. Elbow pads are required. Padded sleeves on gambesons as an alternative to elbow pads are not
sufficient.
b. Arms are to be covered by at least one (1) layer of sweatshirt material or equivalent.
c. Kneepads are recommended, but not required.
d. Semi-rigid shin and forearm protection is highly recommended.

5. Hands
Medium weight leather gloves or similar

D. ARMOR: CUT-AND-THRUST COMBAT

1. Head
a. A fully enclosed padded metal helm of no less than 16-gauge steel or equivalent. A threeweapons
mask is not allowed in this type of combat.
b. Heavy mesh or perforated metal front of no less than 16-gauge steel or equivalent.
c. Helms must have a chainmail camail, be worn with a chainmail coif, or include a bevor that
protects the underside of the chin. A gorget must be worn with these helms.
d. The openings in the visor shall not be wider than one-quarter-inch (1/4") in any direction.
e. Padding and chinstraps are required.
f. Equivalents:
• 18-gauge stainless steel
• 18-gauge reinforced mild steel

2. Neck
a. A gorget of heavy or rigid material shall be used. Light leather or medium weight fabric with
rigid plates attached is also sufficient (See Glossary: Gorget).
b. A dog-collar style gorget alone is not sufficient.

3. Shoulders
a. 10 oz. leather or other rigid material covering the point of the shoulder is required. Metal cops or
spaulders are recommended.
b. One-quarter-inch (1/4") padding under shoulder armor if not already supplied by a gambeson.

4. Body
The body must be protected by any one, or a combination of, the following:
a. Buff Coat
1. A one-quarter-inch (1/4") quilted gambeson with a 5 oz. leather buff coat, or equivalent, is
required. The body protection must include coverage of the buttocks and groin area.
2. Extra padding or rigid protection over the kidney area is required.
b. Brigandine or Wisby Coat
1. A one-quarter-inch (1/4") quilted gambeson with a coat of plates of rigid material, mounted
to leather or heavy canvas, with no gap greater than one-half-inch (1/2"). The body protection
must include coverage of the buttocks and groin area.
2. Any overlap at the sides should be the front over the back.

5. Arms and Legs
a. Rigid elbow protection and padding are required.
b. 10 oz. leather or rigid material on the forearms is required.
c. One-quarter-inch (1/4") quilted padding or semi-rigid material covering the upper legs is
required.
d. Rigid knee protection and padding are required.
e. Rigid shin protection is highly recommended.
6. Hands
a. Heavy leather gloves that extend past the wrist or similar protected by a swept hilt that covers the
fingers and back of the hand.
b. Rigid protection for the hand and fingers is required if not sufficiently protected by the sword
guard and hilt. An authorized marshal will determine if the combination of hand protection and
sword hilt is sufficient.
c. Demi-gauntlets of heavy leather or 18-gauge steel is highly recommended

E. ARMOR: ARMORED COMBAT

1. Head
a. A fully enclosed helm of no less than 14-gauge steel
b. A full faceplate of 14-guage steel or 16-gauge reinforced steel
c. All seams must be welded or riveted together.
d. One-quarter-inch (1/4") of closed-cell foam or equivalent padding is required inside the helm.
e. A chinstrap that prevents the helm from contacting the face (when pressure is applied to the grill)
is required.
f. The openings on the visor shall not be wider than three-quarter-inch (3/4") in any direction.

2. Neck
a. If the helm does not feature a built in gorget or camail of at least 16-gauge steel, then a separate
gorget of leather reinforced with no less than 16-gauge steel or steel equivalent covering the
clavicle is required.
b. The combination of head and neck armor must not allow the neck to be exposed to a slash when
tilting the head.
c. Equivalents:
• Rigid material covered by leather
• 10-ounce boiled leather
• 14-ounce unboiled leather
• 18-gauge stainless steel

3. Shoulders
a. Spaulders of at least 16-gauge steel or equivalent. If a chain hauberk with sleeves is worn, a rigidmaterial
cop covering the point of the shoulder is sufficient.
b. A minimum of one-quarter-inch (1/4") of padding underneath if not already provided by the
gambeson.
c. The shoulders and shoulder blades must be completely covered if not already covered by the
body armor.
d. Equivalents:
• 18-gauge stainless steel

4. Body
The body must be protected by any one, or a combination of, the following:
a. Chain Hauberk or Shirt
1. Chain hauberk or shirt of at least 16-gauge steel with a maximum inside ring diameter of
five-sixteenths-inch (5/16")
2. For 14-gauge steel a maximum inside ring diameter is one-half-inch (1/2")
3. For 12-gauge steel or larger a maximum inside ring diameter is seven-eighths-inch (7/8")
4. Padding beneath the chainmail must be at least one-quarter-inch (1/4").
5. Rigid protection over the kidney area is required.
6. Aluminum mail is not considered equivalent to steel of similar dimensions. Because of the
low mass of aluminum, it serves as negligible protection against Adrian weapons.
b. Brigandine or Wisby Coat
1. Coat of plates of 16-gauge steel or equivalent, mounted to leather or heavy canvas, with no
gap greater than one-half-inch (1/2")
2. Any overlap at the sides should be the front over the back.
3. Equivalents:
4. High impact plastic or one-quarter-inch (1/4") ABS
5. Rigid boiled 10 oz. leather
6. Unboiled 15 oz. leather
7. T6 or similar aluminum
c. Rigid Boiled Leather
1. This type of armor must cover the torso including the groin and tops of the shoulders.
2. Armor may be segmented to allow movement as long as no gaps occur when bending.
3. Equivalents:
• Rigid boiled 10 oz. leather
• Unboiled 15 oz. leather
• T6 or similar aluminum (covered with light leather)
• High impact plastic or one-quarter-inch (1/4") ABS (also covered with light leather)
d. Breast and Back Plate
1. Breast and back plate of at least 16-gauge mild steel or equivalent that overlap at the sides.
2. The breast plate must provide complete coverage of the entire stomach and chest.
3. The back plate must completely cover the spinal chord and underlap or overlap the gorget by
at least one-half-inch (1/2") at all times.
4. Equivalents:
• Leather covered high impact plastic or one-quarter-inch (1/4") ABS
• 18-gauge stainless steel

5. Arms and Legs
a. Elbows and knees must be covered by steel cops with wing of at least 16-gauge mild steel or 18-
gauge stainless steel.
b. Articulations can be other rigid material.
c. Upper and lower arm and upper leg must be covered with chainmail, or rigid material.
d. Semi-rigid shin protection is required (soccer shin guards are sufficient). Rigid shin protection is
highly recommended.

6. Hands
a. Gauntlets of at least 16-gauge mild steel or equivalent must be worn at all times during combat.
b. Gauntlets may be of any design as long as full hand and wrist protection is achieved.
c. Heavy leather gloves like welding gloves, are required as a minimum for the inside of shields
with steel hand guards.
d. Cage-style hand guards that cover the hand and wrist must have no more than a three-quarterinch
(3/4") opening to preclude the requirement for a gauntlet.
e. For shields without steel hand guards, gauntlets are required.
f. Demi-gauntlets are allowed for the inside of shields only if the shield has built-in hand protection
such as a center boss.
g. Equivalents:
• 18-gauge stainless steel

[^]

The fall out from this fight contributed to ending the 29 year long SCA career of a man who is a double peer.

Just remember, not everyone sees everything the same way. What I think is totaly cool is anathema to others. This dichotomy is partly why I started this thread.

Fuck them. Be Awesome.

[FrauHirsch]

The Adrian Combat Manual is here:

http://www.adrianempire.org/documents/m ... l_2006.pdf

The conventions are not so different from the SCA, but as you go to blades like Hanwei longswords, you are into C&T which requires solid helms and a bit more protection. I believe there was a playtest period for C&T where some 3 weapons masks were damaged and some bones were broken, which is why solid helms and some nominal armor is required.

I know there are other steel fighting organizations that have similar rules. The SCA *could* adopt something similar.

[Guy Dawkins]

"The fall out from this fight contributed to ending the 29 year long SCA career of a man who is a double peer. "

I didn't know this.
I am deeply sorry for it.

[Amanda M]

Okay. So I revise to say I don't think it will ever replace rattan combat. Which is a great fear of some, I think.

[iomtalach]

Jester:

Sounds good to me, man!

The day we see people dressed in knightly armour wielding steel swords is the day I'll be putting my sunshade up in front of the rapier field instead of the rattan field.

Steve

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOgQolH4TLY

Estaban is in his horsing-about gear, but has the new helm on. Ugo...Dammit, he's using the madu. Oh well.

[Leo Medii]

The fall out from this fight contributed to ending the 29 year long SCA career of a man who is a double peer.

How can demonstrating something so cool lead to such a thing?


After watching the video, I want to do this.

[Nissan Maxima]

The fall out from this fight contributed to ending the 29 year long SCA career of a man who is a double peer.

How can demonstrating something so cool lead to such a thing?


After watching the video, I want to do this.

When my german suit is done we will. We'll do it at some Weretiger scrum. Keep us from getting fired.

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Estaban is in his horsing-about gear, but has the new helm on. Ugo...Dammit, he's using the madu. Oh well.

I haven't done very much heavy combat yet, and my experience with rapier is extremely limited... But that, right there looks more fun than anything I've seen in videos or real life of rattan fighting.

-Gregory

[Leo Medii]

The fall out from this fight contributed to ending the 29 year long SCA career of a man who is a double peer.

How can demonstrating something so cool lead to such a thing?


After watching the video, I want to do this.

When my german suit is done we will. We'll do it at some Weretiger scrum. Keep us from getting fired.

I'm there.

You still owe me pie fight!

[Maeryk]

Estaban is in his horsing-about gear, but has the new helm on. Ugo...Dammit, he's using the madu. Oh well.

I haven't done very much heavy combat yet, and my experience with rapier is extremely limited... But that, right there looks more fun than anything I've seen in videos or real life of rattan fighting.

-Gregory

Greg.. the way rattan is designed, it's next to impossible to get hurt, unless you, or your opponent are idiots. It's an instant-immersion type dealy. What is posted above? Not so much. (not trying to dissuade you.. but it's like.. uhh.. roller coasters. There are different types, all are fun, but each is different, and has different elements)