Cut and Thrust - Total BS or What?

[Gerhard von Liebau]

Greg.. the way rattan is designed, it's next to impossible to get hurt, unless you, or your opponent are idiots. It's an instant-immersion type dealy. What is posted above? Not so much. (not trying to dissuade you.. but it's like.. uhh.. roller coasters. There are different types, all are fun, but each is different, and has different elements)

Truly, I am not meaning to say that this makes heavy combat look silly or inaccurate or any of those wonderful things people like to bicker over... Just that from my own personal point of view, if I had to do something every day once I start fighting in the SCA, this would be it. Alas, my location and the interest of those around me in the barony would not make this practical.

Also, battles are my favorite aspect of the game, so that's obviously +1 for the rattan. I wouldn't trust anyone battling in a format such as this except my mother! My dad would go Homer Simpson on me, even.

-Gregory

[AaronCarter]

The Big difrence as I see it is:

When fighting with ratan we are coumting on the weapon and armour to keep us safe. therefore the skill of the combatants contributes little to any danger factor. Same for Rapier combat.

When we start cutting at eachother with steel we need to be able to rely on our oponent for our safety. Skill and trust become extremely important.

I fight Rebated Steel in armour outside the SCA as well as SCA Cut and Thrust, as well as SCA Ratan, SCA Rapier, and WMA. All have their own ruleset as well as mindset. and I wouldn't change any one into another.

[Tibbie Croser]

A few thoughts:

Wouldn't solid Lexan fog up or at least be really hot? Modern sport fencers are usually fighting indoors, in climate-controlled spaces, aren't they? Not outdoors in extremes of temperature and humidity like we are.

Another reason steel won't replace rattan is that any rattan fighter who does not like a closed helmet would be miserable in perf plate or a fencing mask. Ventilation and vision, including peripheral vision, are definitely reduced. So those people would probably not want to fight Cut and Thrust.

Ironically, I suppose that the face protection needed for steel weapons would provide excellent protection against combat arrows and bolts.

Frau Hirsch, are there any armorers who make gear specifically to the Adrian Empire requirements, or do Adrian fighters usually buy SCA gear and modify it themselves?

One major roadblock to the spread of Cut and Thrust seems to be the difficulty of getting perf plate helmets. Maybe someday every SCA armorer will offer a perf plate face option in addition to the standard grill. One challenge is that the SCA requirements for offset distance as well as hole size seem to prevent armorers from dishing the perf plate in case the process enlarges the holes.

[Kilkenny]

Funny thing. I'm watching the videos of these combats with steel weapons in an SCA context, and part of me keeps going "what's wrong here? Those weapons look awfully small/flimsy/thin"

Just goes to show how 35 years of doing things one way can impact our perceptions

[LOGOS]

One major roadblock to the spread of Cut and Thrust seems to be the difficulty of getting perf plate helmets. Maybe someday every SCA armorer will offer a perf plate face option in addition to the standard grill. One challenge is that the SCA requirements for offset distance as well as hole size seem to prevent armorers from dishing the perf plate in case the process enlarges the holes.

You don't need to dish it much - usually not enough to distort the holes. If you need to, use solid and just use a little as perf as possible. Or, you just planish the holes back smaller. I've built about 6 or 7 perf masks. Terrance has built over 100 by now. We've had very few problems.

Any competent armor can convert a helm, it's not hard. People seem unduly put off by the stuff.

[Allen Reed]

Jester:

Sounds good to me, man!

The day we see people dressed in knightly armour wielding steel swords is the day I'll be putting my sunshade up in front of the rapier field instead of the rattan field.

Steve

Come to the Middle Kingdom Labor Day weekend and attend the Middle Kingdom Academy of Defence.

The Fete of the Sabaton has steel on steel in armor C&T bouts.

Allen

[co10Broek]

The day we see people dressed in knightly armour wielding steel swords is the day I'll be putting my sunshade up in front of the rapier field instead of the rattan field. Smile

Steve

Would Castle Wars do?? We are running a longsword C&T tourney. I know the marshal perhaps I can convince him to do an armored as worn tournament. . .

[FrauHirsch]

Another reason steel won't replace rattan is that any rattan fighter who does not like a closed helmet would be miserable in perf plate or a fencing mask. Ventilation and vision, including peripheral vision, are definitely reduced. So those people would probably not want to fight Cut and Thrust.

Ironically, I suppose that the face protection needed for steel weapons would provide excellent protection against combat arrows and bolts.

Frau Hirsch, are there any armorers who make gear specifically to the Adrian Empire requirements, or do Adrian fighters usually buy SCA gear and modify it themselves?

One major roadblock to the spread of Cut and Thrust seems to be the difficulty of getting perf plate helmets. Maybe someday every SCA armorer will offer a perf plate face option in addition to the standard grill. One challenge is that the SCA requirements for offset distance as well as hole size seem to prevent armorers from dishing the perf plate in case the process enlarges the holes.

Actually the perf provides better vision in most cases. My husband often uses his perf grill in wars (armored) because he has good visibility, but the others cannot see his eyes.

Its very easy to add a perf grill cover over an existing SCA grill that screw on or are wired on. Some people have whole replacement grills (like my husband). For Rapier and C&T, they can use 18 ga helms which are not allowed for "armored" combat, and those are often made by armorers. WaynO who posts on Classifieds has made some of them.

The helmet my son is wearing (for regular Adria rapier- not C&T) was made by one of our local members. But I'm not sure who made the other one worn by Urbano de Garza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odsdsk-wWPk

I have heard SCA fighters say they are afraid they would hit too hard, but when they actually try it, find out that its not so bad, like not powering up on a pell. You just stop pushing your blow at point of contact instead of powering through. In Adria, fighters are armored more than your average SCA fighter, but the armor is all legal for SCA.

We do most of our practice using rattan. Basically locally its 99% crossover SCA/Adria for the fighters. This is not the case everywhere in Adria.

I haven't seen any armored C&T officially in Caid. Perhaps it is going on, I just don't know about it.

[Fearghus Macildubh]

I have seen two major criticisms about C&T:
1. It's too dangerous to hit people with steel
2. People don't hit hard enough

Obviously, both viewpoints can't be right.

So here's your chance - I only ask the following when you comment:
Have you seen C&T? Lately?
Is it permitted in your area? If so, is there a requirement for historical study or at peer pressure for it?
Have you actually done C&T?
Have you studied any WMA? Outside of the SCA?

Flame on.

Logos

I think the danger of using bated steel blades is wildly overstated by most SCAdians. The European reenactment community has been using them for decades. That being said, you can't just be thrown on the list field as most of us were in the SCA. As one person posted, in the SCA, we rely on the properties of our equipment to keep us safe, rather than on the skill of our opponents.

Anyhow, to answer the OP questions:
Nope, only seen it on youtube.

C and T is permitted in Drachenwald, not sure if you must use historical technique. I find this idea a bit silly, appolgies to the poster who is writting the rule into his kingdom's rules.

I have not done SCA cut and thrust. I have done some Victorian era broadsword using Radelli sabres as well as SCA heavy rapier.

I have studied WMA inside and outside the SCA. I was part of a small ARMA study group at Ramstein AB, mostly studying Meyer longsword, dagger and staff. I attended WMAW in 2006.

I would like to take up C&T, mostly concentrating on sword and buckler, but I'm not sure how many practitioners are in Drachenwald.

[AvM]

Have you seen C&T? Lately?

Yes, most recently about 3 weeks or a month ago.

Is it permitted in your area? If so, is there a requirement for historical study or at peer pressure for it?

Yes, it is. The requirement is for basic knowledge of a historical style to authorize (MK Rules).

Have you actually done C&T?

Yep, most recently about 3 weeks or a month ago (as above).

Have you studied any WMA? Outside of the SCA?

Nope.

C&T is awesome, but I admit to being a bit uneasy about the topic of C&T Tournaments - I took the historical aspect reasonably serious, and I'm not sure how I feel about putting that into a tournament aspect. Have to see as I get more play in.

[co10Broek]

AvM wrote

C&T is awesome, but I admit to being a bit uneasy about the topic of C&T Tournaments - I took the historical aspect reasonably serious, and I'm not sure how I feel about putting that into a tournament aspect. Have to see as I get more play in.

Do you ever get to Gulf Wars? Last Year the Meridian Order of the Blade sponsored a Judged Cut and Thrust Tourney. Declare your master and fight your fight. My instructions to the combatants included the statement that winning a bout was not the primary consideration, however the master did not teach a system to loose and the judges were free to weight winning however they wanted. The judges specifically asked to see what happened "between the plates". There were 11 entrants the three Judges were: Earl Bryan Thornbird, Master Simon Morcar, and Don Giovanni di Fiama.

Jean-Michel
PS the winner was Gassion de Beaumarchais who studies Caranza.

[AvM]

I went a couple of years ago, way before I was C&T authorized (but just the once).

That sounds pretty cool, and I've heard of similar ideas.

I've only done limited C&T, to limited success (my Meyer is pretty bad), I look forward to getting more in when I get the chance. Stupid school and getting an education.

[Marco-borromei]

I've only done limited C&T, to limited success (my Meyer is pretty bad), I look forward to getting more in when I get the chance. Stupid school and getting an education. :D

AvM,
Your authorization was impressive, and our continued sparring drew appreciative attention from a king and prince of the Midrealm. I had a great time and look forward to seeing you back. Get that school stuff done right. We'll still be here.

Marco

[AvM]

Thanks a bunch, Marco. I appreciate the kind words.

[FrauHirsch]

An Adrian Empire armored bout:

http://www.adrianempire.org/impcrownwar ... 20Bout.MPG

Sir Jason, the Adrian Knight in the red and blue short tunic also fights in the SCA and comes to our practice, fighting Adrian knight Sir La Bete' in so. Florida, who I believe has started practicing with some SCA folks in Fla. Sir Jason is fighting injured and does not appear to be as fast and mobile as he normally is.

Adrian's typcially fight counted blows, but there is no minimum power, just clean and on edge (which is often hard for people transitioning from the SCA to steel).

[MJBlazek]

An Adrian Empire armored bout:

http://www.adrianempire.org/impcrownwar ... 20Bout.MPG

Sir Jason, the Adrian Knight in the red and blue short tunic also fights in the SCA and comes to our practice, fighting Adrian knight Sir La Bete' in so. Florida, who I believe has started practicing with some SCA folks in Fla. Sir Jason is fighting injured and does not appear to be as fast and mobile as he normally is.

Adrian's typcially fight counted blows, but there is no minimum power, just clean and on edge (which is often hard for people transitioning from the SCA to steel).

But... but... How can they not be dead?!! I mean.. shouldn't the Earth have opened and swallowed them up?

[puck_curtis]

In period, there were styles that used thrusts almost exclusively- just like we do in modern SCA rapier.

***deletia***

Regular rapier fighting is just as accurate to it's style as C&T is to the styles being used there.

Only if the period you are referring to is the Baroque period and the 'rapier' is an edgeless smallsword. The current rules of SCA rapier force the practitioner into a Baroque smallsword game with the minor addition of some very forced and artificial two tempi cuts with a placed edge.

If you can provide a rapier text published pre-1600 that shows a system without cuts, I would be interested in seeing it.

~P.

[JvR]

An Adrian Empire armored bout:

http://www.adrianempire.org/impcrownwar ... 20Bout.MPG

Sir Jason, the Adrian Knight in the red and blue short tunic also fights in the SCA and comes to our practice, fighting Adrian knight Sir La Bete' in so. Florida, who I believe has started practicing with some SCA folks in Fla. Sir Jason is fighting injured and does not appear to be as fast and mobile as he normally is.

Adrian's typcially fight counted blows, but there is no minimum power, just clean and on edge (which is often hard for people transitioning from the SCA to steel).

That was a good event rainy and hot but good.

[Johannes]

I've been watching this thread, but don't post a lot. I would like to say that I have been watching the development of C&T in the SCA pretty closely, and had the opportunity to attend the WMA Workshop several weeks ago in Racine, which further lit my interest in it. The classes there were excellent, and it was fun to see that many people doing drill at the same time.

[Count Johnathan]

Yeah and don't forget to buy the great WMA gear from Windrose Armoury!

http://www.windrosearmoury.com/zc/index ... ath=30_131

Right Johannes?

[Maeryk]

Why do you hate the history, and grand tradition of the SCA, Johannes?

[Amanda M]

Heaven forfend a business expand their product range to suit a wider range of customers.

[Count Johnathan]

Did I say something rude or did I give a shameless plug for windrose armoury?

Why do you guys always assume the worst? Hmmmm?

[Leo Medii]

And some of us think spinner lures suck.

[Count Johnathan]

well its a good thing that they offer wiggle frog floating lures then!

http://www.jerrysflies.com/site/1539927/page/897642

Just for you Leo!

[Baron Eirik]

Why do you guys always assume the worst? Hmmmm?

Why did you just now assume 'you guys' when only one person made the comment?

[Count Johnathan]

2 people made comment.

[Aaron]

Did I say something rude or did I give a shameless plug for windrose armoury?

Why do you guys always assume the worst? Hmmmm?

Stop Destroying the Society Johno!!

Now, we need to translate that into Latin and have it as a motto…

[Count Johnathan]

Subsisto Attero Congregatio Johno

[Aaron]

Ooooo.... Good reply!

[Baron Eirik]

2 people made comment.

One was meant to be as humorous as yours, imo.

[Count Johnathan]

It's all good.

For the record Johannes is a huge supporter proponent of History, Chivalry and the SCA. On top of this he also has been supplying quality goods for use in all SCA activities for many years.

He is also a very talented fighter. Hits plenty hard too.

[Johannes]

I'm not sure what a spinner bait is, but I probably like them. Black coffee out of a pot and Bud Light in a tall bottle. Us dinosaurs have to have something to do.

Maeryk, you're killin' me.

I just wanted to say that I see a lot of what drew me to the SCA 26 years ago in the WMA/ Cut and Thrust community. It has the closeness you can only get from a small group that is sharing an interest. My own skills in fighting have come from study and honing techniques (and a certain innate aggression) rather than physical gifts, and my second largest influence as a fighter was Steve Hick, who taught a class at this WMAW.

I wish there was a school close to me, the I.33 class was eye opening. I'd have to control my urge to whack people occasionally, though...

[Leo Medii]

I'm not sure what a spinner bait is, but I probably like them.

It was a reference for trolling.

I am hoping that the C&T takes off in the middle. I'd like to do that as an aside and training for weapons use.

[Dauyd]

In period, there were styles that used thrusts almost exclusively- just like we do in modern SCA rapier.

***deletia***

Regular rapier fighting is just as accurate to it's style as C&T is to the styles being used there.

Only if the period you are referring to is the Baroque period and the 'rapier' is an edgeless smallsword. The current rules of SCA rapier force the practitioner into a Baroque smallsword game with the minor addition of some very forced and artificial two tempi cuts with a placed edge.

If you can provide a rapier text published pre-1600 that shows a system without cuts, I would be interested in seeing it.

~P.

We've kinda gone through that already. The operative word here being almost exclusively.