Cut and Thrust - Total BS or What?

Johannes · Post by **Johannes** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:22 pm

Leo Medii wrote:
I'm not sure what a spinner bait is, but I probably like them.

It was a reference for trolling.

I am hoping that the C&T takes off in the middle. I'd like to do that as an aside and training for weapons use.

The guys doing it here are having fun, but I want something more structured, where I can get help with technique and do training before I get to sparring. I'll always like the speed and power of the SCA fight, but steel swords and historical technique has a big draw, as well.

I keep going back to the I.33 class because it opened my eyes about that style so much. The instructor was deadly to an unarmoured person, and never made a strike, just a nasty cutting motion as he closed.

The biggest need I have seen is enough density of students to put together a formalized training regimen. It's just so hard to learn on your own.

Count Johnathan · Post by **Count Johnathan** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 3:48 pm

Leo Medii wrote:
I'm not sure what a spinner bait is, but I probably like them.

It was a reference for trolling.

I am not allowed to say nice things without your crappy comments? Awesome.

Who was trolling?

An Internet troll , or simply troll in Internet slang , is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community

Sounds like you and Maeryk just filled this trolling role quite well. Good job.

Alex Baird · Post by **Alex Baird** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 4:24 pm

Johannes wrote:The guys doing it here are having fun, but I want something more structured, where I can get help with technique and do training before I get to sparring.

I believe there's some Tattershall folk close to you who do more structured WMA training. Not SCA, but a lot of crossover folk. Jon Barber here on the archive can probably point you to them.

Jon Barber · Post by **Jon Barber** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 8:51 pm

Alex Baird wrote:
Johannes wrote:The guys doing it here are having fun, but I want something more structured, where I can get help with technique and do training before I get to sparring.

I believe there's some Tattershall folk close to you who do more structured WMA training. Not SCA, but a lot of crossover folk. Jon Barber here on the archive can probably point you to them.

Being them (well, half the practices are at my house, anyway, and I run the group so kinda sorta me) - I can do that. PM me if you want more info , 'Hannes.

rob(in) · Post by **rob(in)** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:37 pm

in two weeks (once i get done working my buddies up for Crown) i hang up my heavy for the foreseeable future to pursue rapier and C&T. the ring of steel weapons is pretty addicting and i'm looking forward to immersing myself in something i'm not good at.....

AvM · Post by **AvM** » Wed Sep 30, 2009 9:53 pm

Leo Medii wrote:I am hoping that the C&T takes off in the middle. I'd like to do that as an aside and training for weapons use.

I'll do it with you anytime, Leo.

co10Broek · Post by **co10Broek** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:33 am

Johno wrote:

Subsisto Attero Congregatio Johno

Actually your statement translates as:
The Society (I) I substitute, I destroy. (I must admit that, given some of your statements about the non rattan programs, you might actually have meant this. But I truly doubt that you believe you as an individual make up the entire Society.)

A better translation would be:
Johno, desine subvertem congregatiem.
For those of you who were looking for a sigline, dropping Johno's name makes the statement an open command (i.e. it applies to whomever reads it.)

This translates as Johno, Stop! (desist) your subversion of the society.
While you are at it please stop using online translation programs.

Jean-Michel

welder · Post by **welder** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:32 pm

Steve -SoFC- wrote:The day we see people dressed in knightly armour wielding steel swords is the day I'll be putting my sunshade up in front of the rapier field instead of the rattan field.

http://vimeo.com/channels/omsg2009#6032021

...or did you just mean SCA?

Count Johnathan · Post by **Count Johnathan** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 5:51 pm

co10Broek wrote:Johno wrote:
Subsisto Attero Congregatio Johno

Actually your statement translates as:
The Society (I) I substitute, I destroy. (I must admit that, given some of your statements about the non rattan programs, you might actually have meant this. But I truly doubt that you believe you as an individual make up the entire Society.)

A better translation would be:
Johno, desine subvertem congregatiem.
For those of you who were looking for a sigline, dropping Johno's name makes the statement an open command (i.e. it applies to whomever reads it.)

This translates as Johno, Stop! (desist) your subversion of the society.
While you are at it please stop using online translation programs.

Jean-Michel

No way. I would have to learn Latin if I did. :lol:

Mihi stolidus virga proeliator latin haud bonus
(Me dumb stick jock latin no good.)

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 6:38 pm

rob(in) wrote:in two weeks (once i get done working my buddies up for Crown) i hang up my heavy for the foreseeable future to pursue rapier and C&T. the ring of steel weapons is pretty addicting and i'm looking forward to immersing myself in something i'm not good at.....

Seriously? Awesome.

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Thu Oct 01, 2009 7:04 pm

...or did you just mean SCA?

Yes. This entire thread is about Cut and Thrust combat in the SCA.

Steve

sven_g · Post by **sven_g** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:19 am

This long thread was too long for me to read all pages on but I want to toss out my POV anyway...

Background: Have you done C&T; no

POV: Imagine everybody at Pennsic this year with rebated steel and then we start the field battle with the cannon...
I don't think I would want to be part of that, that tells why I don't fancy C&T.
(Actually same POV as the equipment versus training and control for safety that was posted earlier in the thread.)

How fun and play nice girls and boys!

rob(in) · Post by **rob(in)** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:45 am

Baron Alejandro wrote:
rob(in) wrote:in two weeks (once i get done working my buddies up for Crown) i hang up my heavy for the foreseeable future to pursue rapier and C&T. the ring of steel weapons is pretty addicting and i'm looking forward to immersing myself in something i'm not good at.....

Seriously? Awesome.

yep. back when our practice was in a small space we would alternate every other week between heavy and fencing, to give everyone a chance. so most of us did both. i got focused on Crown, then squires, for a long time. but now that i helped get a belt on my only squire i have time to go back where i left off with rapier. and let me tell you, to me the advances in the weapons/rules are awesome. back when i quit the heaviest allowed blade was the doublewide epee and i was on the experimental schlager team....

the weapons don't give me pause. i think rattan will always be a good default, given the SCA's "get em on the field" ruleset. but, i would love to see a large subset of C&T fighters/tourneys, both armored and unarmored.

Baron Alejandro · Post by **Baron Alejandro** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:46 am

Your Excellency,

You're truly living up to your title of Master-at-Arms, and I want to be you when I grow up.

rob(in) · Post by **rob(in)** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 3:12 pm

Baron Alejandro wrote:Your Excellency,

You're truly living up to your title of Master-at-Arms, and I want to be you when I grow up.

heh. thanks.

but honestly i just ran out of reasons for not stepping outside my ego comfort zone...

Syrfinn · Post by **Syrfinn** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:21 pm

Lol, have to admit, was asking folks about it at Queens Rapier this past weekend.

I messed with fencing, when it was first being introduced in Atlantia like 19 years ago, I think thats when it was. But never went anywhere with it.

But over the last couple of years, have been looking at it, and then the Cut and Thrust started to be talked about, and that has really peaked my interest.

Now just need to work on a 16th Cent personna, maybe a privateer.

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:41 pm

Finn O'Shannon wrote:Now just need to work on a 16th Cent personna, maybe a privateer.

Don't need to do it unless you want to. There's plenty of options on the forthcoming list of blade types approved (certainly, on the list I have for the Outlands) that would let you keep your current persona and clothing and fight C&T with appropriate weapons.

That said, the 16th Century is inherently cooler, and everyone should come join the Illuminati instead of those Mafia thugs.

jester · Post by **jester** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:27 pm

Is there an arming sword on the list?

Syrfinn · Post by **Syrfinn** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:10 pm

Yeah, but my main personna is a 6th Century Romano-Brit.

Plus, as part of the game I enjoy, is trying to look the part, whatever I am doing.

And well 16th century privateers is one of those subjects I enjoy reading about. So would be fun to do. I just never had the desire to do a heavy kit of it. But a light kit for rapier and cut and thrust would be fun.

rob(in) · Post by **rob(in)** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:38 pm

that's funny.

i'm going for 1590's sailor. just ordered a 32" cutlass and dagger from Alchemy. already have a 36" shell hilt rapier and dagger from Brian/Osprey (Darkwood).

rob(in) · Post by **rob(in)** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 8:07 pm

jester wrote:Is there an arming sword on the list?

closest i could find:

http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php ... ucts_id=87

Jon Barber · Post by **Jon Barber** » Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:13 pm

rob(in) wrote: but honestly i just ran out of reasons for not stepping outside my ego comfort zone...

You won't be outside it for long *g*.

Uadahlrich · Post by **Uadahlrich** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:24 am

Finn O'Shannon wrote:Now just need to work on a 16th Cent personna, maybe a privateer.

Nah, Sure, to one country you're a "Privateer". But to everyone else you're a "Pirate".

What you REALLY want is to join the Fahnleins and become a Landsknecht.
After all, "Inside everyone's soul, there is a little Landsknecht that wants to be noticed." :shock:

That, and "Waffenroks" are cool!

jester · Post by **jester** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:29 am

Or you could come to the one true century and be 14th Century and practice Fiore. And if we can get a decent arming sword approved you could be earlier than that. Can you imagine a holmgang with metal arming swords and shields made of layered cardboard and fabric (so they ablate)?

Saritor · Post by **Saritor** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:16 am

Jester,

Most of Darkwood's blanks have been approved (I'd say all, but Scott's constantly tinkering with stuff, so I never know what all he has), and I've seen him mount the single sword blades on a plain crosshilt (he had some at Estrella War last year).

It might be a slightly more expensive arming sword than, say, a Hanwei, but it's approved and won't fall apart any time soon.

My primary C&T sword is just a late period arming sword:
http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/index.php ... ucts_id=22

co10Broek · Post by **co10Broek** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:17 pm

So who will be at KWAR?
Jean-Michel
Meridies

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:36 pm

co10Broek wrote:So who will be at KWAR?
Jean-Michel
Meridies

I will. There's a small thread on Meet and Greet on the subject.

Uadahlrich · Post by **Uadahlrich** » Mon Oct 12, 2009 2:12 am

For those who are interested, the Appendix 5, the list of SCA approved blades for SCA Rapier and C&T has been updated. YAY!

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:58 am

So I got to see some Cut and Thrust this weekend at Castle Wars, and Cillian hit me a few times with a rebated sword.

I think it's awesome. They can't do "tournaments" (yet) - it's all "demos", but nonetheless it is effectively rebated steel combat for the SCA that isn't "swishy pokey", "Three Musketeers" fencing.

I'm stoked. I intend to buy a rebated sword and get a perf-metal visor made for my klappvisor, and fight 14th century German in both heavy and C&T.

Groundbreaking stuff.

Steve

Uadahlrich · Post by **Uadahlrich** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:48 pm

Steve -SoFC- wrote:So I got to see some Cut and Thrust this weekend at Castle Wars, and Cillian hit me a few times with a rebated sword.

I think it's awesome. They can't do "tournaments" (yet) - it's all "demos", but nonetheless it is effectively rebated steel combat for the SCA that isn't "swishy pokey", "Three Musketeers" fencing.

I'm stoked. I intend to buy a rebated sword and get a perf-metal visor made for my klappvisor, and fight 14th century German in both heavy and C&T.

Groundbreaking stuff.

Steve

I can't wait for the shoulder to heal (NOT combat related surgery)
so I can get back into form. Lots of folks who actually give C&T a try are finding that it doesn't, in fact, bring about the end of the Society, rot your brain, cause loss of bladder control nor make the baby Jesus cry.
I expect there will be several C&T tournies at Pennsic this year.

AvM · Post by **AvM** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:38 pm

Don't rush it, Opa.

We want you to beat up on us for years to come.

co10Broek · Post by **co10Broek** » Mon Nov 23, 2009 7:08 pm

I think it's awesome. They can't do "tournaments" (yet) - it's all "demos"

Actually Stephen, this is not correct. C&T can be used in any nonstandard tournament format. That is any format which is not double or single elimination or in which the ultimate prize is determined by your opponent acknowledging defeat. So Prize playing, Pas d' Armes, judged historic tournaments and whatever other weird concoctions the devious minds can come up with. (For example the Queens champion may use a double elim format, but the queen chooses the champion. . .)

Jean-Michel
Meridian C&T guy

Fokke · Post by **Fokke** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:26 am

OK, C&T has been explained to me two different ways. One way i like and was getting into, the other I didnt and is why I have shied away and stuck to standard heavy.

The first way was it was a more realistic form of combat combining the adrenalin and fun of SCA armored combat and rebated steel using armor as worn rules(ie. sorry dude, I dont care how hard you hit me with your one handed sword on my plate armored chest, it ain't going through). This had me all hyped up and someone told me this again this past weekend which is why I am on this thread.

The other way was my local group telling me, all untrue. It is a realistic form fighting with rapier level armor(aside from the helm), no one wants to have to hit hard so dont wear any heavy armor, this is just pretty much an advanced form of rapier fighting.

I want a reason to build some cool new armor, but dont want to fight three musketeer style(thanks for the term Steve) as I personally dont find that style that exciting both for the imagery and fighting itself(sorry Co). So which is it?

Building on the whole using true historical styles the way they are meant to be used, how long until we see other weapons used late period as a style? Pollaxes, greatswords, etc, the way they are supposed to be used. I am sure alot of you have seen the video of the tourney out West with the guys and rebated steel pollaxes(or were they halberds?) and they didnt even have face shields.

J.G.Elmslie · Post by **J.G.Elmslie** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:20 am

is there an <type> sword on the list?

as a matter of interest, does anyone know what it takes to get a weapon onto the list of approved kit? I'm increasingly producing equipment for people, (predominantly UK-based) and would be interested to know what's required by the SCA, if it allowed me to expand a customer base.

anyone got links I could follow to find out?

Anthonye · Post by **Anthonye** » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:08 am

Suzerain wrote:
is there an <type> sword on the list?

as a matter of interest, does anyone know what it takes to get a weapon onto the list of approved kit? I'm increasingly producing equipment for people, (predominantly UK-based) and would be interested to know what's required by the SCA, if it allowed me to expand a customer base.

anyone got links I could follow to find out?

If you contact your Kingdom Rapier Marshal they should be able to help you start the process.

-Antonio