The Armour Archive

The post doesn't read to me as being intoxicated.

I speculate from the bio blurb that this is a writer's gambit (he signals his intended use of exaggeration and indicates he's a writer).

Nice post Johno.

Regards,

Avery

As to his distinction between sport fencers and rapier fighters, the sneering does happen, for various reasons.

What ever good observations he made, and there are a few, are lost in the delivery.

I want to see how good he is with the M14 & bayo...

He is one of the <a href="http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=89386">the bitter ones.</a>

Tasha, in the past I'd have agreed with you about the not-training part. But more and more, the 'new school' of fighting is taking over. 'New school' means you work on your armour, you read books, you go to the gym, eat right, and you check your ego (hopefully) way more than people used to. Nowadays, one of the first things I hear told to new fighters is, "Get thee to a gym."

PS - Mordreth is right about the small-sword thing.

I consider all SCA combat forms martial sports.

Its not an art, as there isnt enough overall cohesion in the way its taught, and the mental theory in the way it is to be fought. I dont think its just a game or sport either, as it is a full contact activity with some form of weapon and derived from (perhaps in a misconstrued and diluted way) militaristic or warrior like activities.

That said, this guys probably just met the wrong group of folks. Its a delicate thing introducing new people to the SCA, and a bad group or even individual can seriously wreck ones opinion on the entire organization. I know it happened to me, i contacted a local SCAer who was a complete tool, and it left me with a bad impression so i stayed away from the SCA. Years later i met some SCA guys who changed that opinion for me, and brought me into the game. If not i would probably still have negative feelings about the SCA.

Cheers,

I agree with the generalities of his statements.

Then again, I see what we do as martial sports and have run into many of the same issues- particularly with fencers, that he has.

g-

Josh W wrote:Discuss.

Seems like my kind of drinking buddy, except that he fences with wire.

Baron Alejandro wrote:Tasha, in the past I'd have agreed with you about the not-training part. But more and more, the 'new school' of fighting is taking over.

Well, I hope you're right, and I hope it reaches the East in stronger doses than it has so far.

Mikhail_Voronov wrote:.
Second, a guy who is (probably due to number 1) accusing the whole of being identical to the part. Theres a fancy logical fallacy name for that but I can't recall it at the moment.

Synecdoche.

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:Then again, I see what we do as martial sports and have run into many of the same issues- particularly with fencers, that he has.

I do and don't...if he goes for kills and wounds, fine, but if he's stabbing people in the pinky or little toe and getting offended by being referred to as a sport fencer who's not really trying to learn to fight with a rapier...I can see their point.

If he's being sneered at just for having come from strip fencing, I can see his point.

I have heard really disparaging things said about SCA rapier fighting by armored combatants in the past. Frankly, it always baffled me. It's hitting people with sticks, folks. Discussing "Honorable combat versus street brawls" is nonsense. It's all a contact sport, no more and no less.

The major hangup, as always, is royalty. You can't be a knight, or wear a metal hat, due to your rapier skills. It's not "fair", but no method of choosing your leaders is... and the responsibility of the funny hats far outweighs the glory most of the time.

Giovanni_d'Alba wrote:I have heard really disparaging things said about SCA rapier fighting by armored combatants in the past. Frankly, it always baffled me. It's hitting people with sticks, folks. Discussing "Honorable combat versus street brawls" is nonsense. It's all a contact sport, no more and no less.

The major hangup, as always, is royalty. You can't be a knight, or wear a metal hat, due to your rapier skills. It's not "fair", but no method of choosing your leaders is... and the responsibility of the funny hats far outweighs the glory most of the time.

The disparaging things I hear amongst my circle of friends generally has less to do with the weapon than with the nature of the participants. All of the other stuff is superfluous and really only comes into the conversation when people try to have a "discussion" about it. Heavy fighters generally think that the stereotypical rapier fighter is a "wuss", and everything comes down to this basic thought. Unfortunately many SCA fencers re-inforce this stereotype by trying to take as much "contact" out of the sport as possible. This is largely what the note in this thread is about- note where he mentions the safety gear involved (professional vs. homemade), force of blows etc. Talking about lack of peerage, whether it is "real combat," chivalrous combat, street brawls, whatever are really smoke screens for this basic thing.

From what I see, the reason that there isn't a Peerage or Royalty, is because Peers are all supposed to be equals. As long as most fencers are seen as "less than equal" then they will not be recognized as such.

Luckily there are a few fencers who are really starting to push the envelope, and they will one day probably gain more regular access to a Peerage of some sort.

Royalty? Probably not any time soon.

g-

he is entierly wrong.....



the BAR is a wonderful melle weapon.

Whenever I hear someone rant like that I always wonder what happened along the way to make them that bitter.

No comment.

I get the impression he either had a chip on his shoulder to begin with or somebody pissed in his cheerios. Or both.

This blog entry was from 3 years ago, I wonder if anything has changed for him.

DukeAlaric (George S.) wrote:and they will one day probably gain more regular access to a Peerage of some sort.

Your Grace,

We already do. It's even happened in Atlantia.

Duke Alaric, since you're in Atlantia, you should talk to some of the knights who also do rapier, e.g., His Majesty Vladimir and Duke Logan. Also talk to the White Scarves who also do heavy fighting. They can give you the most up-to-date perceptions of Atlantian rapier vs Atlantian rattan. Rapier has changed much faster than rattan fighting, so impressions based on things seen and heard years ago may be out of date now.

Flittie wrote:Duke Alaric, since you're in Atlantia, you should talk to some of the knights who also do rapier, e.g., His Majesty Vladimir and Duke Logan. Also talk to the White Scarves who also do heavy fighting. They can give you the most up-to-date perceptions of Atlantian rapier vs Atlantian rattan. Rapier has changed much faster than rattan fighting, so impressions based on things seen and heard years ago may be out of date now.

Alaric lives in Atlantia right now. Well, except that he is trying to Escape from New York right now...

All i have to say about this thread is this....

this was some guys blog post from several years ago. Josh did you get his permission to post this? (I honestly don't know...)

I've written a number of things on the interwub when torced about something over the years and I personally would be pissed if someone took something I had written years ago and posted it for discussion on a list without my permission.

BdeB wrote:All i have to say about this thread is this....

this was some guys blog post from several years ago. Josh did you get his permission to post this? (I honestly don't know...)

I've written a number of things on the interwub when torced about something over the years and I personally would be pissed if someone took something I had written years ago and posted it for discussion on a list without my permission.

I'm pretty sure once you post it on the web it becomes public domain unless you took the time to copywrite it, making the simple answer "don't post stuff on the web you don't want to see again."


See previous comments about clicking "delete" instead of "send".

Eirik wrote:

BdeB wrote:All i have to say about this thread is this....

this was some guys blog post from several years ago. Josh did you get his permission to post this? (I honestly don't know...)

I've written a number of things on the interwub when torced about something over the years and I personally would be pissed if someone took something I had written years ago and posted it for discussion on a list without my permission.

I'm pretty sure once you post it on the web it becomes public domain unless you took the time to copywrite it, making the simple answer "don't post stuff on the web you don't want to see again."


See previous comments about clicking "delete" instead of "send".

That's not the point, Eirik. Courtesy is.

My opinion?

Little too accurate for comfort. The attitudes he describes seem all to common.

Some of his factual details might be off but he seems to have captured the spirit of the thing.

Sorry.

G
(experienced in all the games mentioned in the rant)

Oh sigh....

First, fencing was not always a sport, and if it isn't a "sword-fight," then I submit the writer should try sabre.

Second, the writer may have experience in fighting, but his historical knowledge is lacking. Try, at the very least, understanding what the word "sport" ment in, say, the 17th and 18th centuries? I'm willing to bet that the word had a slightly different meaning in those centuries.

Third, if the writer isn't impressed with what is offered by the SCA, he can go back to the well-trained college (and Olympic) athletes. He may or may not find happiness there.

Fourth, I have been over-weight. For other reasons than fighting, I've lost weight, and work to keep it off, but an extra added benefit is that I can continue fighting.

Fifth, nothing worth doing, in my experience, is easy.

Mord.

BdeB wrote:That's not the point, Eirik. Courtesy is.

Aye, that was understood. See previous comments. If you don't want folks to read it, don't write it in the public domain. It really IS that simple.


See... if he'd written that in a notebook... and some one found it and made it public, you'd be right. But he didn't, and so courtesy has nothing to do with it, it was already public domain and is now being used as a discussion tool in an armour forum. Nothing wrong here...

Gaston de Vieuxchamps wrote:My opinion?

Little too accurate for comfort. The attitudes he describes seem all to common.

Some of his factual details might be off but he seems to have captured the spirit of the thing.

Sorry.

G
(experienced in all the games mentioned in the rant)

I agree... I've seen every one of the stereotypes he mentions personally.
But, he then speaks in sweeping generalities... indicating ALL of this, that or the other group, and that is just one opinion. For what it's worth, I think he sees hubrice and intolerance in others... but I don't think he sees his own.

Eirik wrote:

BdeB wrote:That's not the point, Eirik. Courtesy is.

Aye, that was understood. See previous comments. If you don't want folks to read it, don't write it in the public domain. It really IS that simple.


See... if he'd written that in a notebook... and some one found it and made it public, you'd be right. But he didn't, and so courtesy has nothing to do with it, it was already public domain and is now being used as a discussion tool in an armour forum. Nothing wrong here...

I think you would find that many bloggers would disagree with you. I'm not an expert on IP rights so I don't know the ends and outs. I will say that if someone took something I posted on a blog and published it on the internet for 'discussion' somewhere else without my permission I would be at the very least, extremely pissed.

Flittie wrote:Duke Alaric, since you're in Atlantia, you should talk to some of the knights who also do rapier, e.g., His Majesty Vladimir and Duke Logan. Also talk to the White Scarves who also do heavy fighting. They can give you the most up-to-date perceptions of Atlantian rapier vs Atlantian rattan. Rapier has changed much faster than rattan fighting, so impressions based on things seen and heard years ago may be out of date now.

Oh, I am familiar with most of the changes and with some of the good gentles who have earned peerages from their experiences in rapier.

Since we were speaking in generalities, however, I confined my comments to those sorts of statements.

In the short term, due to the nature of who does and does not participate in rapier, there will always be a gap between the two sports. By the nature of the game, rapier tries to see how "light" they can hit someone and achieve their desired effect, while heavy tries to hit harder. These are oil and water, they don't mix, and are at the root of the problems that we see between the two groups trying to get along.

For the rank and file this is part of the barrier to participation that we see. There are big macho guys who play heavy and delicate flowers who play rapier- there is an adage in heavy: it takes years to build a reputation and seconds to ruin it, and analogously we have someone similar in fencing, there may be more people who are aggressive, sports minded fencers out there who don't mind playing a little rough, but throw in your one flower, and it ruins the mix.

g-

I think he's right on the money.

And while I disagree with the broad generalization that all heavies fighters are fat...let's face it, the majority are not in particularly great shape (I'm no exception)

The vast majority of SCA combatants, Armored and Rapier, are doing it as a hobby, not to be seriously competitive at a sport. From my perspective, we, as a group, are in no better or worse shape than the average softball league. One main difference, though, between us and most hobby leagues, is that we toss the newbie, novice, journeyman and experts all onto the same field. This is not necessarily good or bad, but it is different from most hobby-level sport activities.

Eirik wrote:I'm pretty sure once you post it on the web it becomes public domain unless you took the time to copywrite it, making the simple answer "don't post stuff on the web you don't want to see again."

.

It most assuredly does not become public domain by putting it on the web. It is copyrighted at the moment of creation. Being on the web doesn't make it any different than any other form of writing. You can register your copyright for a fee, which entitles you to additional damages if you take someone infringing on your copyright to court and win.

You are right about the don't post it to the net if you don't want it read. It is bad form, and technically a copyright infringement to copy an entire post like that to another forum without the author's permission.

Jurgen

Jurgen wrote:It most assuredly does not become public domain by putting it on the web. It is copyrighted at the moment of creation. Being on the web doesn't make it any different than any other form of writing. You can register your copyright for a fee, which entitles you to additional damages if you take someone infringing on your copyright to court and win.

You are right about the don't post it to the net if you don't want it read. It is bad form, and technically a copyright infringement to copy an entire post like that to another forum without the author's permission.

Jurgen

If you say so, I'll take your word for it. The research I did on publishing my work indicated otherwise.

Thanks though! It would mean I still have rights to material I thought sacrificed to public domain.

Most of what could be said about the opriginal blog post has already been said, but I thought I'd add a couple observations:

First, he's dead-on about the disdain for the convention of right-of-way that is sometimes present among SCA rapier and C&T fighters. While we probably are better off without a formal right-of-way convention in our rules, it's still a rule that adds realism to sport and practice fencing, not one that takes it away. Any fencer who fought in earnest with sharp weapons in a way that didn't reflect what right-of-way requires is either suicidal or pants-on-head retarded. Priority one is keeping the other guy's sharp, pointy implement out of your tender flesh. Everything else is a distant second. In a real fight, you're going to deal with your opponent's attack, then launch one of your own. Unless you're an idiot.

I've occasionally been that idiot in SCA rapier combat... because I let myself get into that "sport fighting" mentality and took a chance I wouldn't have dreamt of in a real fight. I really, really, really try not to do that any more.

As for our no-hitting-below-the-knees rule, I've always tried to defend myself as if that rule weren't in place. In other words, if I can see a shot is going to land low, I don't just blow it off and let it hit. That's stupid (especially since I'm seldom wearing sabatons!).

Most of what could be said about the opriginal blog post has already been said, but I thought I'd add a couple observations:

First, he's dead-on about the disdain for the convention of right-of-way that is sometimes present among SCA rapier and C&T fighters. While we probably are better off without a formal right-of-way convention in our rules, it's still a rule that adds realism to sport and practice fencing, not one that takes it away. Any fencer who fought in earnest with sharp weapons in a way that didn't reflect what right-of-way requires is either suicidal or pants-on-head retarded. Priority one is keeping the other guy's sharp, pointy implement out of your tender flesh. Everything else is a distant second. In a real fight, you're going to deal with your opponent's attack, then launch one of your own. Unless you're an idiot.

I've occasionally been that idiot in SCA rapier combat... because I let myself get into that "sport fighting" mentality and took a chance I wouldn't have dreamt of in a real fight. I really, really, really try not to do that any more.

As for our no-hitting-below-the-knees rule, I've always tried to defend myself as if that rule weren't in place. In other words, if I can see a shot is going to land low, I don't just blow it off and let it hit. That's stupid (especially since I'm seldom wearing sabatons!).