The Armour Archive

At first, when I started fighting (about a month and a half ago) I couldnt see why so many people were so oposed to plastic. Well, now I know. I fight in almost full plate armour, except my legs, which will soon be replaced. At fighter practice tuesday, I was fighting against no one else wearing almost any kind of plate armour. Everything was plastic CoP's and leather arms. There were guys jumping through the air, rolling on the ground, and basically doing stuff that comes from a jacky chan movie.I kept getting my ass kicked by people who keep bashing the heck out of me, but they kept calling my hits too light, which I know are not, as I made my dad cry. Well, I guess that enough rambling from me.

Frankly, the reason for HATING plastic is exactly what you've outlined....it is incredibly light and gives the fighter an un-authenic advantage. The problem is that the more period-correct your armour is, and the more armour you have (later period), the LESS likely you are of victory.

go medieval on 'em....

about the time they hit the ground to roll or do some stupid hokey-pokey scorpion arund the back twist triple lindey duck shot, apply *insert mass weapon of choice here* with great ferocity.

thats pretty much what would have happened "in tha day"

And here I thought it was just because it looks like crap.....


J

No, I don't hate it cause it's light. I hate it cause it looks horrible and isn't "period".
As for light shots -- talk to them about what makes a good shot. Might learn something. They are wearing armour, and I bet your dad wasn't...

Did you say you only started fighting a month and a half ago? That could also be a factor. Even with lighter armour, skill does count for something. I have seen great fighters in both full and minimal armour. Look at yourself in terms of strength, agility, and endurance. If you find yourself lacking in any of these areas, work on them. I fight in a full 14th century harness and feel I can perform as well as any one in plastic. I hate plastic armour! But I rely on my defense to stop their shots and my skill as a swordsman to look for the opening to kill my opponent. I think in time you will grow in skill and find this not to be as big a problem as you think it is now.

[This message has been edited by Munz (edited 01-18-2001).]

i know plastic isnt period but i do sca combat i can only assume you do the same. but the premmis set in the hand book states that you would be wereing leather and some mail posably a norman cap and nasal so a fighter would ware about 15 to 20 lbs of armor the complaint i get is blue plastic dosent look period. in theroy in the sca we are lower nobility and eaven then we wouldnt be able to afford full plate but it sher does look cool

lord nug

I hate plastic 'cause it just don't look medieval -- and conspires with the duct-tape and tennis shoes to ruin the illusion of a Medieval Outing.

Lighteness has nothing to do with it --
You can get together a very nice, light, period armour -- one that can look really cool too
(think water-hardened leather scale, possibly interspersed with steel plates
...then there's that leg harness on the effigy that's supposed to be all tooled leather).

Grackous,
I respectfully disagree with your assertion that our presumed personas can't afford decent armour.
The presumed personna are lower military nobility -- the whole raison d'etre of such a fella is "respectable" combat (that whole "Chivalry" thing and all). Aint no way he wont put himself in hock just to get some basic gear.
That's what medieval loan institutions were for -- you get a loan, and then rile up the populice against the "ungodly usurer" and drive his family out before your loan comes due.

Sides --
The SCA engages in Tournaments with Battons 'A plaisance' (I thought it was 'a autrons' (have no idea on the spelling) but Brian Price disagrees).
Any guy who shows up to a Tournament should damned well bring his armour with him. If he can't afford it, he has no business being at a Tournament.


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Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.nycmail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by grackous:
<B>i know plastic isnt period but i do sca combat i can only assume you do the same. but the premmis set in the hand book states that you would be wereing leather and some mail posably a norman cap and nasal so a fighter would ware about 15 to 20 lbs of armor

lord nug</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


actually its a full chain Hauberk, and I'm here to tell you my riveted Hauberk weights in at a hefty 32lbs. so you can check that 15-20lbs at the door and try again.

Ulrich

p.s. yes I do fight in it.

"but the premmis set in the hand book..."

Funny I thought the "premmis" was that this was some sort of medieval group not Mad Max meets D&D convention...

Vitus, I'm really begining to understand your exasperation with this whole mess.


Janos

In meridies, you are "assumed" to be wearing a full maille RIVETED hauberk (oh, wouldn't that be sweeeeeeeet?) leather legs, an open face helm with a nasal. A full maille hauberk was probably as expensive during the 12th century as full plate was in 15th century. I have read somewhere were making a maille rivetted hauberk was a long, tedious, demanding process. Now, that is the armour classification for blow calling purposes. Its a standard set to put everyone on the same page.

We are assumed to be lesser nobility in general livelihood, but that is for every tom, dick, and harriet that JOINS the SCA. After you are in a while, with any luck, you progressively gain stature. Yes, a minor nobile going to fight for King and Country would sell whatever he had to to get the best armour he could, regardless of stature. And as your stature within the SCA changes, i.e. you acheive AoA, GoA, KSCA, etc. - then so does the ability to obtain said articles.

Example - Lord Murdock McArthur wears plate. Well, he is a lord, he has land, he has steeds, he even has a couple of mastiffs, so he is not exactly "minor nobility" as I am. He would be able to have the plate he wears.


dang, i seem to be in some kind of rant mood today. I apologize if i go overboard.

in Service,
Aidan

[This message has been edited by Aidan Cambel (edited 01-18-2001).]

And what about the minor noble that defeats a greater noble in contest, and for ransom has his armour?
If I remember my history right, Sir William Marshal paid for a lot of stuff by selling the armour of his fallen competitors.
There are many explanations as to how a "minor noble" could come to afford nice armour duds.

Indeed, that is another option. Unfortunately, as much as I lose, I would be fighting naked by now!!!!


In Service,
Aidan

Your exactally on why we hate plastic so much.

I also see it as a safety factor.

Here in the south it gets very hot and humid, if its say 112 like it was at a demo we did, how hot is it in a suit of armour that insulates your body while you heavily exert yourself? Bad risk of heat stroke imo. Now if one of the chunky fellas thas a bit older gets in a suit like that we could loose a buddy real fast here.

Now in the winter Plastic gets cold. Plastic gets warmed up on the inside, it gets nailed real hard and *crack* I've broken several pieces of plastic armor. All on cold mornings, most of them were shoulders from EGG. (or thats what they looked like)

I don't trust the saftey of plastic, it is rediculousy light, it's unperiod and it's usually ugly.

A man in full plate looks like a man in full plate. A man in chain maille looks like a man in chain maille. A man in plastic looks like a damn fool wearing plastic.

The SCA has a tax exempt status as an educational group. Wearing plastic is a contradiction to this end. What I don't understand is why they don't embrace authentic armour instead of avoiding it, as it's the authentic living history buffs, the spinners, blacksmiths etc.. that give the SCA it's legitimacy, thereby retaining their status. Otherwise, SCA Plastic Paladins would be no different than paint-ball enthusiasts. Just another hobby, and they wouldn't have to read any books!!!

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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"

Being very new to Heavy fighting, I have to admit i like plastic at this point.

I Brace for the flames =)

My main goal is to get out on the feild. I have every intention of getting a better kit,and hopefully Soon. If i get a speed advantage at the moment it is completly counteracted by my lack of skill.

I do admitt it is ugly as sin! I think that it should be allowed to be used by beginners, intill it can be replaced. The plastic armour should be then gave to more new commers (Sort of like an Armour Gold Key)

Cheers Colleen



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~116 pints of Guinness are served every second
world wide (10 million a day)

A poor nobile who couldn't afford armour would just be wearing old, out of style armour that could probably be obtained cheaply. So if you contend that your poor nobility and cant afford the "full plate" you should just be wearing armour 30-40 years out of date. At least then you might survive.

I long for the day when we'll be griping about those guys wearing 15th century knees with a 12th cent crusader kit and how horrible that is instead of non-armour protective suits made of plastic buckets.

Aelric

Howdy,

The "poor noble" bit doesn't work.

In the Battle of Wisby, it was an army of well-equipped peasants that fought King Waldemar. They lost, but quite a bit of the armour recovered would be protective for the SCA. In fact, according to Thordeman, the lamellar armour found was probably worn by the poorest peasant on the battlefield (and armour #7, the easiest to make was worn by a rich Danish mercenary).

Besides, I drove downtown and picked up a piece of 14 ga mild steel last week for $9.19….that’s 2.4 ft by 5 ft piece of scrap. With a used jigsaw, and a couple of metal cutting blades, I can make a helm out of some of it….and go back to get some 16 ga mild steel to make a COP.

-Aaron

It's laziness, not cost. That Egg Armour is as expensive as some plate. They don't want to work with it, they don't want to maintain it, and they don't want to wear it. They just want to win, be the king, be the big shot and they want it NOW with no work involved. Instant gratification without effort. The old French knight snorts derisively and rides off grumbling....

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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"

Ulrich: "actually its a full chain Hauberk, and I'm here to tell you my riveted Hauberk weights in at a hefty 32lbs. so you can check that 15-20lbs at the door and try again."

Is this a historically accurate replica, or is this an SCA-standard, 14-ga., galvanized, butt-joined coat? If the former, I'ld be interested in the provenence. If the latter, please allow me to suggest that the weight you cite is not consistent with existing research. It would appear that a full hauberk of period manufacture would weigh in the area of 20-25 pounds. This is supported by museum catalogues where the weights and sizes of numerous mail inventories are well recorded (even the Wallace has several haubergeons, and I don't recall even one of them weighing over 20lbs.).

So, while I admire your willingness to burden yourself with the additional weight, I'ld have to say you're carrying about double what your medieval counterpart would suffer. BTW -- my welded mail hauberk from Knut weighs 23lbs *grin*... -c-

Sigh...my 14 guage 3/8" knee-length, long-sleeved crusader haulberk only weighs TWICE that amount....

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Virtus vincit invidiam
"Virtue overcometh envy"

Cheval,

Its 16 guage steel, 1/2 arms, 52 inches around, knee length on a 6ft me, riveted chain. it weighs in at 32 lbs. I have no
idea if its dead-on historicly accurate or not, but it does look the part, and it allows me to basically look the part of a late 12th/ early 13th century German, I fight in essentially what the SCA says were all wearing anyway. and thats what I enjoy. as far as other riveted chain...what I wear is fairly comperable in weight to all of the other commercially available riveted I looked at.

dont mis-understand, I'm no armorer I'm an American. I find armor I like and throw money at it until its mine.
and most armorer's like that

Ive had lots of armor so far in my short SCA carrier (ask scot he's seen most of it) I've gone stedily backwards from a 15th century breast plate, with full arms, legs and a Heater, to A COP with full arms/legs and a Heater, now I fight in a gambison, riveted chain, 1/2 arms a norman conical and a kite shield. I dont promise that all of its perfictly historicly correct, or that I don't/haven't/will not use plastic. I do have some plastic, but i keep it covered. my upper leg armor is plastic (my pants cover it and the chain covers them). all I try to do is look the part of what i'm trying to portray. so far I think i've done a decent job.

Ulrich

and well if i'm carrying around a few extra pounds of chain...so be it...maybe it will help me work off a few extra pounds of me

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Colleen:
<B>Being very new to Heavy fighting, I have to admit i like plastic at this point.

I Brace for the flames =)</B>

Good Colleen:

Don't worry (I don't generally flame!) ---there are options available that are inexpensive as plastic:

For do-it-yourself armour, visit <B><A HREF="http://members.nbci.com/armourstuff/" TARGET=_blank>Rough From
The Hammer</A></B>

You can acquire most of your hard-point armour in mild steel (sans helmet) for less than $65.00.

For inexpensive gautlets, visit Crazy Andy's Discount Gauntlet World

The items on his site are cheaper than what you'd pay for the hockey gloves and basket hilts. You can't easily beat $75.00 a pair for STAINLESS STEEL!

The items I've referred to are just as inexpensive as comparable plastic gear. Do a price comparison with Egg Armor or Dark Victory.*

<B>
My main goal is to get out on the feild. I have every intention of getting a better kit,and hopefully Soon. If i get a speed advantage at the moment it is completly counteracted by my lack of skill.</B>

If you are in a SCA group, there are people who are more than happy to assist you with the construction! Sewing your own items of kit, (and sewing for barter) would probably help with it as well. You're only limited by pocketbook and imagination.

I generally have no problem with hidden (read: covered with a garment-leather or rich fabric cover, like velvet or embroidery) plastic. It shows an attention to detail and style. My problem is with armour that the person didn't even bother with the most basic SCA rule:

"...a reasonable attempt at pre-17th century costume/armour."

Most people that we refer to as "Plastic Paladins" are primarily interested in winning--not in looks. And when you're doing a demo, just watch who the six year-olds call "knights"! Certainly not the guy in duct-taped plastic...

<B>I do admitt it is ugly as sin! I think that it should be allowed to be used by beginners, intill it can be replaced. The plastic armour should be then gave to more new commers (Sort of like an Armour Gold Key)

Cheers Colleen

</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure that many on this list (as well as in your local group) will welcome helping you spiff up your kit a little. Good luck!

*Note: In the defense of the proprietor of Dark Victory Armoury...he offers some of his products covered in leather, suede or fabric upon request.

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Robert Coleman, Jr.

The Noble Companie and Order of St. Maurice

Those who beat their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who don't.

[This message has been edited by Templar Bob/De Tyre (edited 01-22-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Templar Bob/De Tyre (edited 01-22-2001).]

Ulrich's got a buncha armour, rivited shirt looks cool.
He's squired to the heroic plastic slayer Sir Conal!!!

"And when you're doing a demo, just watch who the six year-olds call "knights"! Certainly not the guy in duct-taped plastic"

Yup Bob, your right when the folks in you group get pissed at you for it thats were the problem comes in. Not the Chiv. but the other folks.

My main goal is to get out on the feild. I have every intention of getting a better kit,and hopefully Soon. If i get a speed advantage at the moment it is completly counteracted by my lack of skill.

I think that it should be allowed to be used by beginners, intill it can be replaced. The plastic armour should be then gave to more new commers

You should practice how you mean to fight. If you want to fight in full gear, you should practice in it. learning how to fight in light-weight plastic will teach bad habits. You will get used to the lighter weight, and then when you aquire better armour, you might be tempted to stay in plastic, because it's "comfortable" or, you are familiar with the way you move in it.



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steel on steel, the stuff of legends

I've been watching the plastic controversy since the first day I found the AA. I see a lot of people putting it down, but I'd like to see the other side as well. Somebody play devil's advocate, and not just "I'm new and it gets me on the field". I'd like to hear from somebody who's totally sold on it who's gonna keep using it, and their reasons why. In any good discussion you need to hear from the other side. Personally I'm not an advocate of plastic, but I'd really like to hear some good arguments for using it. I'm now waiting with Colleen for the flames.
Edward

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The way to a man's heart is between the second and third ribs

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by edward atte flynt:
<B>I'd really like to hear some good arguments for using it.
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


It's so beautiful and versatile, with all the gorgeous shades of blue...
*bludgeoning myself with silly stick*

Edward -- www.darkvictory.com

Now, that guy is totally and completely sold on plastic

It's so beautiful and versatile, with all the gorgeous shades of blue...

I always did like the smurfs too!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by edward atte flynt:
<B> I'd like to hear from somebody who's totally sold on it who's gonna keep using it, and their reasons why. In any good discussion you need to hear from the other side.
Edward
</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, I'll play Devil's advocate. I use plastic in place of cuir bolli and its always covered completely from view. The plastic is inexpensive, easy to manipulate, and I can make my own armor - important to me as I do not have metal working tools or skills.

I build gambesons with small ABS plates quilted between padding (moving blanket or layers of terry cloth) and trigger. No one ever sees it, I can wash the gambeson and its great protection by itself (for SCA), or under other armor. It provides great protection under the chain hauberk I use for steel fighting. I'd like to use the hauberk more in SCA, but my back screams at me for days after each use. I started making these over 20 yrs ago when an old boyfriend was getting hurt through a standard gambeson and chain hauberk.

I also use it riveted under black suede for my cuises in a brig style. Again, my back was bothering me with full steel legs. I still have 3 lame steel knees attached.

Even so, I'd guess my SCA armor weighs in about 45 lbs. My live steel armor probably weighs in somewhere around 70 lbs.

One of my main problems is that I'm female, 5'2", age 42, and overweight. And I change weight a lot and I've been fighting for 24 yrs and have achy bones sometimes. Except for certain basic pieces (helm, elbows, spaulders, knees), off-the-shelf armor will just NOT fit me.

Frankly, getting armor over the years has been quite an experience. Between taking years to get pieces and armorers who just dissappear, I needed to find a way to do it myself.

Much of our modern made armor weighs much more than period pieces. I don't see it as a bad thing to use plastic, hidden and in moderation, as a way to make my suit more representative of a period weight.

I've read a lot of complaints about "its too light" - well, many perfectly period armors were light too. And most modern reproductions are much heavier than a period suit would have been.

The other complaint: "its not period". Well, my SCA suit looks more period than a lot of plate and leather I've seen out there. Sorry, but just because armor is made of leather or steel, doesn't mean it even close to resembles period armor.

the devil's advocate,

Julie Adams
aka Juliana Hirsch, OL SCA

Sorry -- you can't play devil's advocate if you don't wear any _visible_ plastic.

"well, many perfectly period armors were light too."

Huh? If the armour is of period construction style then it will be whatever weight is appropriate. A period armour cannot be too light in this context.


"And most modern reproductions are much heavier than a period suit would have been."

Because the SCA requires them to be too thick. Why does a breast plate have to be 16 ga? Or a cuiess? It's not even a required piece of armour. But I have repeatedly heard marshalls tell people that 16 ga is the minimum for SCA metal thickness.

Period armour is often lighter because it's thinner and tempered so strength is not lost.

Sorry but that comparison to extensive use of plastic is not accurate.

"Juliana Hirsch,
_OL_
SCA"
nuff said

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Murdock:
[B]"well, many perfectly period armors were light too."

>Huh? If the armour is of period construction style then it will be whatever weight is appropriate. A period armour cannot be too light in this context.

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J:
This was out of context, I was referring specifically to the complaint that plastic is too light so therefore it should be banned. "too light" is not a good reason.

*********************************************

"And most modern reproductions are much heavier than a period suit would have been."

Murdock:
Because the SCA requires them to be too thick. Why does a breast plate have to be 16 ga? Or a cuiess? It's not even a required piece of armour. But I have repeatedly heard marshalls tell people that 16 ga is the minimum for SCA metal thickness.

***************************************
J:
They are wrong. There is no 16 ga requirement except for helmets and you can't use plastic for helmets anyway. The only metal required in most kingdoms I know of is on your head.

***************************************
Murdock:
Period armour is often lighter because it's thinner and tempered so strength is not lost.

Sorry but that comparison to extensive use of plastic is not accurate.

********************************************

I didn't compare it to "extensive use of plastic". Please don't add words I didn't write. The problem is that period metal armors are not even one thickness. They are often a thicker gage in the front and very very light in the back. Each piece graduates in thickness based on the likelihood of getting hit there and how it overlaps other pieces. This is not standard construction in reproduction armors which tend to be uniform thickness. But not all period armor was metal anyway...

Visible plastic and blatant non-period things like blue jeans, tennis shoes, and sports gear have been banned from the field in the SCA kingdom of Caid for at least 18 years. So we see very little of it.

Julie

Murdock said..

"But I have repeatedly heard marshalls tell people that 16 ga is the minimum for SCA metal thickness."

Well, besides the helm,tell them they are wrong.

I've seen some good armour out of approx 22-24 high carbon steel. Gauntlets, knees, cuisses made be Sir Alexis down in the Houston area. Perfectly legal, and very period.

Timo

Besides the helm,

_i_ know that only the helm has to be 16 ga.

But I had a lovely discussion with a marshall at Pensic about my fauld being 20 ga. As well as similar probelms last Gulf Wars.

But some people read 16 ga one place and put it every where else too. I think Sir Brion's rig is 20 ga tempered spring steel.

Sir Timo does your friend take comissions? I'd love to get some more period weight palte. If i could cut the gague down from 16 to a more period thickness of 20 or 22 ga tempered I could easily drop 15 lbs out of my harness.

It would be lighter _and_ more period.