A point on the HACA/AEMMA/SCA perspectives (yes, it's a lon

Gaston · Post by **Gaston** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 9:23 pm

When you cram all those acronyms together they look a little silly to an outsider, don't you imagine? But the difference is real, and many are passionate about it.

I don't understand why some think that period European martial arts, and period European living history are mutually exclusive. I hope to some day have both.

If wearing non-modern clothing is silly, why do most serious Japanese martial artists wear gis, even at practices? If trying to learn the language of medieval England is inappropriate, why do many American karatekas refer to their techniques by Japanese terminology?

When I was a Japanese martial arts student I relished every opportunity to participate in traditional ceremony, to learn traditional training methods, to hear the history and legend of the art I had embraced. It was not foreign to my training, it enhanced it greatly. Even small things like decorating the dojo in Japanese style or adopting Japanese forms of address helped me leave behind the mundane world and better focus on my training. Why should it be different in European arts?

I'll be in training heaven when I'm working through De Libieri or Talhoffer manuals in turnshoes and hosen, or bashing my fellow students with a proper behourdian baton in cuir bollei tourney armour.

I don't see the conflict in concept, only a rivalry between groups. It doesn't have to be so.

[This message has been edited by Gaston (edited 03-23-2001).]

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 10:39 pm

I agree with you Gaston,

You cannot get the full experience unless you are using all the correct equipment relating to the art you are practising. For 15th c. blossfechten, that includes turnshoes, hosen, & doublet. As a for instance, your footwork is noticably different when wearing turnshoes vs. sneakers.

You cannot re-create armoured combat without armour that functions like it's historic counterpart, over good speculative reconstructions of the proper foundation garments. I regularly work on an armoured sequence and spend a great deal of time to the unarmoured individuals in the group we work with why they cannot move or react like they are proposing to do - they don't understand the limitations imposed by the harness as even those who have used armour have not used proper reconstructions. The ones who have never worn armour always put themselves into positions where they would overbalance themselves (and as a result fall on their asses - and even experienced martial artists are guilty of this).

The proper clothing aids the movements - at least I find it to be so. I think the macho element of the martial arts community is just leary of what they consider to be 'unmanly' costume.

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Bob R.

Gaston · Post by **Gaston** » Fri Mar 23, 2001 11:03 pm

Oh, but I rather like the tights, they fit so...snugly. And the pink ones are especially nice...but I digress.

Haw, haw, point well taken. No wonder some feminists make the sword=phallus allusions.

I've seen what were probably emminent historians and archaeologists try to demonstrate how an artifact weapon was used, instead of confining themselves to their strong areas. As I've said elsewhere, "please put the white gloves back on and stick to fondling the artifacts, what you just demonstrated would have cost you your head and half of your arse."

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Sat Mar 24, 2001 1:13 am

And I don't think I have ever seen anything that was truly an "improvement" in modern armor technology. It had to work because otherwise Darwin would be taking them to Valhalla...

In my opinion, when you get to about 1550 in Europe or Japan, you pretty much reach the epoch in the combination of form and function.

Fearghus Macildubh · Post by **Fearghus Macildubh** » Sat Mar 24, 2001 1:20 am

I think that the big thing that makes most of the HACA and AEMMA folks shy away from the SCA is our subculture. The SCA is full of the greatest people on earth, but we tend to be a little flaky. We have our own politics, social rankings, etc. Some people just want to learn how to fight the way our ancestors did, don't want to go to court or do any of the things that go along with living history or the SCA. I for one would love to have both groups meet with no bashing, save that of weapons.
Slainte,
Fearghus

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"How long will we fight? We will fight until hell freezes
over. Then we fight on the ice."
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The rules are: pillage first, then burn.
Failure to follow the rules will lead to
summary dismissal from the raiding team.

randy · Post by **randy** » Sun Mar 25, 2001 3:21 am

the sca was also the pioneer in the field of recerating the pas, there was no book, historians had no idea how to use a blade and they just went out there on there own and learned by doing, (i salute any one that survived the days of 3x5 slots)some of the groups have taken the newly available info and shared it with the rest of us and have been a big help. some i thing distanced themselves to create there own leg to stand on and a feeling of reserch not recreation that is typicaly associated with sca. some of the others just poo poo the sca on preconcieved notions and dont realy look at it, i will admit i can from a school like this. i am now in the sca and do not talk to my old teacher. we are born with 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason. i think thats how my grand mother said it but it still applys, the more you learn the better you get

Gustav Johannes Losen · Sun Mar 25, 2001 5:53 am

I agree, having had contact with the afore mentioned organizations and numereous others. I feel they all have there brighter points and could learn a great deal from each other .It's dissapointing that unfortunately instead of using our differences as an asset to build from .We use the time to bash each other based off of preconcieved notions ....

chef de chambre · Post by **chef de chambre** » Sun Mar 25, 2001 9:47 am

As a historian, aand regularly dealing with historians (some of whom are quite competant martial artists), let me give you this perspective -

A lot of historians difficulties with the SCA is not based on any sort of 'rivalry'. Many admire the efforts of the SCA and other groups of medievalists. What they have difficulties with is the attitude that many members of the society project, that being a member of the society somehow gives you expertise (in some cases though osmosis!) in subjects Medieval, and a professional competancy to teach. Yes, there are plenty of historians who have no business discussing martial arts, there are also a large minority who study Western European Martial Arts, and are VERY competant in it. Unlike most SCA forms, what they practise is not based on a form made up out of whole cloth (and therefore haveing no historical relevance), but is based on existing manuals and reconstructed with good copies of artifacts.

What burns most historians is the SCA tends to come to history looking for justification of their made up traditions. They do not research history looking for fact and with an open mind to change their pre-concieved notions if they come across contrary evidence.

I am not saying all SCAdians are like this by any stretch. Some expert researchers are also members of the society. Some of the best practitioners of Medieval crafts are also members of the society. That said, just because you are a member of the society does not make you either of the above (and regardless of rank held as well).

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Bob R.

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sun Mar 25, 2001 10:15 am

Hmmmm,If an average Sca fighter went to a real medieval Tourny, they would not pass an armour inspection,and if they were allowed to fight they would be killed or injured very quickly.Fully armoured knights would kill lightly armoured serfs by the score.
But the sca combat IS a modern sport,really having little to do with true medieval tournys, much more like fencing IMHO..Otto

Matt Easton · Post by **Matt Easton** » Sun Mar 25, 2001 4:46 pm

Everything in moderation - training in different degrees of armour is good, training in full authentic kit is good, but there is nothing wrong with training in modern kit as well..There are so many people who have all the kit but are crap fighters, who have not studied any manual or truly learnt any of the european martial arts - some people prefer to dress up and swing a weapon around every now and again, others don't care about the kit, unless it is necessary, and train very hard and regularly..There's room for all of us, or mixing disciplines..

Anybody in the UK or elsewhere in Europe who wants to train like this, get in contact with us - we are affiliated to the AEMMA and FISA in Italy, and are located in London,UK.

Matt Easton
The Exiles
www.the-exiles.org (we also have an excellent forum)

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Sun Mar 25, 2001 11:38 pm

Otto- if ANY of us went to a real tournement, we'd ALL probably die, not just we SCAdians.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 12:25 am

Umm..
Gaston..
AEMMA fights in harness, and propriate clothng (or at least they try to). HACA doesn't (didn't do any armoured combat last I checked, though I know John C got some armour recently so maybe they will start). One of the many reasons you can't judge one based on knowledge of the other.
The reason aemma disassociates itself from SCA and other reenactment (term used loosely) groups, as I understand it, is because they want to point out that what they are doin is a martial art -- they don't do period embroidery, music, dancing, and all that other nise stuff that comes along when you do LH. They do medieval martial arts. Not even tournaments -- just medieval combat. As shown in the fechtbooks.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 1:06 am

I think that the reason some slam us (SCA) is because, well, we're Microsoft. We're the biggest, we do the most things, we have name recognition. Some people get jealous of these things.

I wouldn't really call us "living history," we aren't speciallized enough. We do engage in "experiental archaeology." We learn by doing. This doesn't necessarily endear us with all academics, since we get our fingers dirty.

We have individual levels of accuracy. Some are high, some are low.

With all our faults, we do some things well. And we have a hell of a lot of fun.

There isn't really anything to compare to our individual or group combat, and some of us make some really neat artifacts.

randy · Post by **randy** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 1:52 am

aemma has created a martial arts forum doesn't pretend to know it all, they are very easy to talk to as well. some of the other guy come of as nothing but rude and pretentious and as soon as you say sca they walk away. i still think that all the groups could learn a lot from each other. there is a teacher here in california that tells all his students that all the sca is, is a bunch of trick wrist shots and bad edge cotrole.now me pesonaly, i think i know at least one other shot, having done this for almost a decade and i dont do pell work, i practice cut soft and hard targets as many as 100 a month, i think i know where my edge is.

still cant spell and by the way how long am i going to be a new member?

[This message has been edited by randy (edited 03-26-2001).]

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 8:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Owen:
Otto- if ANY of us went to a real tournement, we'd ALL probably die, not just we SCAdians.Owen Your right about that!Even fully Armoured I wouldnt last a New York minute on a real Tourney field LOL.....Otto
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Destichado · Post by **Destichado** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 2:07 pm

...and by the way how long am i going to be a new member? [/QUOTE]
(shhh... nine more posts. Not to get off the topic)

Bob Charron · Post by **Bob Charron** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 3:36 pm

Just to correct a common misperception, in the prologue of his Fior di Battaglia, Fiore Dei Liberi says that he implores his students to undertake armored combat in the lists rather than ever fighting a duel unarmored (of course, that makes sense :-)

. The reason he gives is that when fully armored one may be certain of completing the combat without serious injury, barring any extremely rare accident.

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Conn MacNiell

Lochlainn · Post by **Lochlainn** » Mon Mar 26, 2001 4:52 pm

Yep.

Armoured=fighting chance.
Unarmoured=dog food.

Remember, even the smallest cuts in period could kill due to infection.

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Lochlainn
I'm a Liberal and I'm OK!
*Insert gratuitous inflammatory remark here*