Sword & Board vs Two Hander for weak sauce shoulders.

Urban · Post by **Urban** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 2:02 am

Greetings all, it's been several months since my last post. I tried to get back into fighting early this spring after a year or two break, with much appreciated aid from Donngal and a few others in Twin Moons. Unfortunately after only one fighter practice (with a sweet bruised rib I might add) I had to put the SCA out of sight and out of mind and try to get some semblance of life back in order, find a job, get school figured out, pay off some debts, etc.

Fast forward to present: Got my kick-ass old job back (Milano Music for any locals, come buy a tuba!) got schooling lined up, debts are in control, so I've decided it's time to get prepped and get back in the game.

I'm going to preemptively answer my own question and say I need to stop being a bum and get back into shape, but I digress. I've never had particularly strong rotator cuffs, and at the fighter practice (again I know, lots of practice, build that muscle) my right arm was spaghetti from holding my shield up.
'
So to you more experienced fighters, what's a tad easier on the shoulders, sword and board or something like a glaive/bastard sword? It'll probably be a few months before I'm actually fighting again, gotta get in better shape, save up for a helm (don't want to intrude again on generosity) and try to make armor less sucky (read bruised rib).

Thanks in advance friends. I've missed this place.

knitebee · Post by **knitebee** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:13 am

If a shield is wearing at your arms, keep it in closer to your body and it reduced the strain on the arm. Also adding a guige to your shield can help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guige

Adric13 · Post by **Adric13** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:37 am

Strapped, or center grip? And how heavy? First thought is don't be a puss, but if there is a medical reason going lighter may be the answer. That's what I had todo when my shoulder was reinjured. Swim team and volley ball tore mine up. Had to go lighter...

Baron Eirik · Post by **Baron Eirik** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:11 am

Unless there is a medical reason behind it, using a shield is just a new & unfamiliar use of the muscles, and that will make spaghetti arms on even strong guys. If it's just fatigue, training will build up the stamina. If there is pain or tendon weakness, there may be something more involved.

Owyn · Post by **Owyn** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 8:42 am

Both are going to work your arms something fierce! Two handed weapons tend to be very dynamic fighting styles, so they work your muscles quite a lot, even if the total weight is a little less than sword and shield.

If you can put even an hour a day in working those muscles with some light calisthenics and pell work, you'll find much of your "spaghetti arm" issue solved inside of a month. Seriously.

But I don't think you're going to find one weapon style "easier on the arms" than the other. They're both pretty rough. I fight S&S, polearm, greatsword, bastard sword, two swords, and sword & short spear on occasion even, as the whim and mood strikes me. Go try them out! Eventually, you'll settle into a style or two or three that you like best, and enjoy most. That's really what matters here more than weight of the weapon.

(I'll repeat the caveat offered by others above, that if you have some sort of joint issue or something else that feels "wrong" going on, see a doctor. It's actually usually good advice to see a doctor before starting a new athletic activity or workout routine.)

Kilkenny · Post by **Kilkenny** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 9:28 am

Sword & shield and greatweapon put different demands on your body. Neither puts less demand on your body.

There are some very nice exercises for strengthening your rotator cuff, which is a good idea for anyone who is going to be swinging sticks around. We put alot of strain on those muscles.

It's also probably not your rotator cuff that is giving up on the shield

More likely it's bigger muscles in your shoulder and back that aren't used to the work. One good tool for working those muscles (aside from just doing shield lifts - if you have a shield, get thee to a full length mirror and do shield lifts while watching to see where the openings appear) is to take a gallon milk jug, fill it with water and then, holding the handle as though it were your shield grip, start doing shield movements.

lochinvar76 · Post by **lochinvar76** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 10:03 am

Getting some strength back into your shoulders and core is going to make the biggest difference for you. I would also suggest to learn some good stretches. Flexibility will go just as far to help you as strengthening exercises will.

As to the sword and shield vs. greatweapons, I can speak on this subject some. I fight with extreme arthritis in my shoulders and have had to learn to compensate for it through body dynamics. Using greatweapons, the most demand on your body is going to be placed upon your trunk. Strong and agile legs, a solid core as it's the rotation and contractions in your torso that produce the real power. If you're having to use your arms and shoulders to do that, you're doing something wrong.

If you really want to keep fighting sword and shield, check out this thread:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=107338

Duke Logan put a link to how he hangs his shield which puts very little strain on the shoulders.

Urban · Post by **Urban** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:30 pm

So it looks like the verdict is stop being a pussy

I think I can handle that. I'm not partial to one form over the other, I've only fought sword I shield in the past but would like to get into 2 hand stuff as well. Thanks for the tips.

Baron Eirik · Post by **Baron Eirik** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 3:51 pm

It's as much about time with the shield or weapons as anything. I fight using my shield almost every week, and do nothing in the way of formal exercise the rest of the time. My shield ways about 8 pounds and I can use it all day. This past Tuesday I borrowed another guy's shield since mine has a broken strap. It ways about 13-14 pounds and is a center grip, mine is a strapped round. Very quickly I couldn't lift it well enough to be effective. (So I parked it low, and parried head shots, but ....).

It does not even have to be that your shoulder is 'weak'. That it is unused to the specific way it's used for shield work will tire it out rapidly. Until, through repetition, the motions are familiar. Yes, general conditioning is a Good Thing(tm). But training the muscle memory to the specific use of your shield is something every fighter goes through.

Have fun

Baron Alcyoneus · Post by **Baron Alcyoneus** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 4:48 pm

When I realized that I couldn't hold my shield up (rotator cuff), I kept fighting using 2 handed stuff.

Then, I had to heal for quite some time...but the 2H did no more additional damage.

Cailin · Post by **Cailin** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 6:13 pm

One thing I want to emphasize here is the need to pace yourself. one thing about our game is that its very easy to feel the need to push. This is all well and good, but if you over do it, you can slow yourself down even more. When I got back into fighting, I tried to fight the way I did when I was in full form, after a couple of years away.

I was spaghetti armed, ineffective, and other comments. But more importantly, in trying to push (I was at a tourney) I ended up hurting my left shoulder and it took quite a long time to get back to 100%.

Excercises to strengthen your shoulders, regardless of weapons form:
get extension bands, they're big rubber bands, they sell them at walmart. Tie them to a railing a door knob whatever. Hold your arm to your side, hand straight out in front of you. Pull the bands across your body for the first motion, and then the opposite direction. both arms.

Military press - dumbells

Long pull rows - start with your arms out in front of you, holding the row bar, crunched up over your knees. tighten your core, straighten your posture, (essentially the starting position for the normal row) and then pull the row bar to the middle of your chest.

Stefan ap Llewelyn · Post by **Stefan ap Llewelyn** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:21 am

For any combat athlete this book is gold:
http://www.rosstraining.com/infiniteintensity.html

The author personally responds to emails and runs a forum here:
http://www.rosstraining.com/forum/

and for an example of his training, please see here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6JvhCTjicY

and here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57pv_1j4 ... re=channel

freiman the minstrel · Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:43 pm

Folcric wrote:So it looks like the verdict is stop being a pussy I think I can handle that. I'm not partial to one form over the other, I've only fought sword I shield in the past but would like to get into 2 hand stuff as well. Thanks for the tips.

All right.

Stop this line of reasoning right now. It can give you no benefit, and it can possibly harm your progress.

I am not a knight or a duke, but I have helped two dukes, several other knights, and a sitting prince to gain their honors. Not looking like an idiot compels me to tell you that these guys would probably have become dukes and knights with or without me.

But I sure helped. I have the crackling joints to prove it.

You are not being a pussy. You are addressing an issue that you have identified. For some things, you have to man up and get tougher. For others, you have to identify a problem and solve it. Identifying and solving a problem is about overcoming an obstacle and becoming a winner. Calling yourself a pussy is about sticking with a strategy that you have already identified as a loser. There is a strong undercurrent of "pain in weakness leaving the body" in the SCA, and buying into it is not a winning strategy. Pain is an indication that something is wrong. Frequently, manning up can overcome it. Sometimes, pushing through pain can mean an end to a fighting career due to joint damage or even something as simple as tennis elbow.

Training decisions have nothing to do with how much of a man you are, or how much of a pussy you are. If you can't make those decisions on your own, find a good trainer, somebody you can trust, and work with him or her.

Fighting has nothing to do with pussy status. It is about cardio vascular fitness, muscles, techniques, mindset, training and equipment. There are some knights and dukes that are pussies, that have no moral fibre or backbone to speak of. In short, being a pussy is not a detriment to success at SCA fighting. Watch for big winners that want to convince you otherwise. It's a tell, and you can use it.

Fighting has little to do with manliness. Lose that illusion right now. It will get in your way easily.

Now that we have dealt with the big issue, and it is the biggest that I have seen from you, let's talk about the specific issue that you have noticed.

(Good job on that, by the way. Identifying weaknesses is a great start.)

You have found that your shield arm feels like a limp noodle at the end of practice.

There are three possibilities.

First, you are too tense. This one is most likely, and easiest to fix. The problem will fix itself as you become more relaxed. To fix this one, fight more, and concentrate on breathing.

Second, your loaner shield is too heavy for you, and you don't know how to use it yet. Without specifics about what type of shield you are using, and how you are using it, I can't diagnose that.

Third, your shield side shoulder and bicep are actually weak. This is unlikely in a male fighter, but it is an easy fix. It doesn't happen over night, but weight training is a sure fix for it. Since you mentioned it, it is a good idea to actually find out how to exercise your rotator cup from the start. Lots of injuries happen there.

Please give us more specifics.

And lose that "Pussy" fixation. It does no good, and it can harm you.

f

Hanko Kal · Post by **Hanko Kal** » Mon Dec 21, 2009 1:58 pm

One of the dumb things I am doing to work on my shield side shoulder strength is to use my shield while doing my daily pell work. I add a 10 lb ankle weight to my wrist as well. Over the past month or so, my shield work has improved a great deal with that small change to my training.