BEG: Light Fighting

Maunikar · Post by **Maunikar** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 1:51 pm

Well, I've just picked up light fighting as my first SCA marshalled activity. Aside from the clicks I've picked up in my right wrist and the swelling between my right thumb and forefinger, so far, so good.

My questions for the group:<ul>[*]Any quick suggestions for the newbie?</li>[*]What are your preferred suppliers (Kingdom of the Middle)?</li>[/list]<hr>Stephen atte Smythe - <img src="http://junior.apk.net/~jdub/pics/OotA.gif" align=center border=0> - The Lycaeum Appendix
When I bite into a York Peppermint Patty, I get the sensation of a cold wind blowing through my chain mail...

schreiber · Post by **schreiber** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 2:37 pm

Tripplete (sp?) arms is online. They have just about all of the weapons you'll need, and I think they have masks as well.

Look for a local fencing club (assuming you're talking about rapier when you say light fighting?)... they oftentimes have deals on used equipment.

Date/ marry someone that can make you an SCA legal fencing coat. Rapier is more about looking good than anything else. Barring that, get a 3 weapons jacket and wear a doublet over it.

HELMUT

Kevin the Hound · Post by **Kevin the Hound** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 3:23 pm

You can make good rapier armor by making two t-tunics out of white denim. If you fancy the outer tunic up a little you have the "Irish Shirt" look. I have consistently found that two layers of heavy denim will pass the "4-thrust" test. Works for the hood, too.

I don't recommend used masks unless they are in visibly good condition. Be sure they are "3-weapon" or "12 kg" rated.

Shop around online for your weapon (or at bigger events - TOC is in northern Indiana this Saturday). Be sure to get a German made schlager (usually says Solingen on it). In my opinion France-Lames schlager blades are too light and whippy. They sure don't have the longevity of the solingen blades.

Triplette is a good supplier, SCA knowlegable, and has good deals for SCA folk.

Feel free to e-mail me with more questions. I am Rapier Marshal for the Shire of Ravenslake (Lake and McHenry Counties, IL - north of Chicago) and am currently Midlands regional rapier champion and am on His Majesty Edmund's Rapier Guard.

msgipson@genevaonline.com

Lord Kevin O'Shaughnessy

known here as Kevin the Hound

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Pars Acuta in Alio (The Pointy End Goes into the Other Man)

Kevin the Hound · Post by **Kevin the Hound** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 3:26 pm

P.S. - Don't refer to it as Light Fighting. My tub of rapier equipment weighs 60 lbs, with masks, swords, daggers, bucklers, targets, chain gloves, fish, marshal batons, copies of DigGrassi and Marozzo, etc. ;-)

Call it Rapier Combat, Rapier Fighting, or something like that. There is a type of combat engaged in out West called Shinai combat that is often refered to by Western peoples as "light fighting".

Kevin the Hound

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Pars Acuta in Alio (The Pointy End Goes into the Other Man)

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 3:30 pm

Triplette's cheesy webpage might turn you off -- but don't be -- they are the best far as I know.

Don't buy used masks or weapons --
Masks wear out over time until they don't protect anymore.
Blades are a disposable -- they wear out and break - you buy new ones.
Obviously nothing wrong with a used jacket or gloves.

Modern fencing jacket under a doublet will make you hot as hell.
I made myself a leather doublet that closes down the front. I wear a light shirt under that -- and can open the jacket between fights to cool off.
Triplette sells an Sca-generic fencing tunic that looks quite nice from the photo on their page (I suppose an issue would be how careful you are about period with your kit).

If your kingdom lets you -- make or buy yourself a fencing helmet (we are after all the ARMOUR archive).

Weapons --
go as quickly as possible to Shlagger -- trying to fence anywhere close to period with a foil is just silly, a little better with Epee - but only a little.

Technique --
There is often too little technique in SCA-fencing.
Learn good footwork.
Learn point, blade bending, and force control -- poke at inanimate objects alot.
Depending on what your locals are like (sometimes there are great folks in the area, other times you got nothing) -- it may be a good thing to join a fencing club and learn the basics in a modern Epee class.

Other --
Don't get bullied into accepting SCA-fencing as Rapier or Duello. It is not.
You do not need a late period personna!
(unless you want one)

There is a little conversation about fencing on one of the boards here somewhere -- take a look (I think YOung Logan started it).

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Kevin the Hound · Post by **Kevin the Hound** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 3:55 pm

Norman -

The Midrealm is Schlager only, so he doesn't have anything to worry about on that account.

Triplette's jackets, while not being true period-looking, do look okay and function well. Not a bad place to start.

I'm with you on the rapier helm issue. I just ordered my Burgeonet today. The Midrealm considers rapier helmets "experimental" and they must be approved by the Kingdom Marshal of Fence, but he gets around a lot and has approved quite a few as far as I know.

As far as the term "Rapier", I was just trying to help establish common terminology. The styles that a person can use and convert into something legal for SCA rapier are varied and numerous. I do stuff from DiGrassi, Marozzo, I.33, Silver and things learnd from swinging rattan for 20 years. After all, to quote Antonio Banderas : "The pointy end goes into the other man."

Incidentally, my persona is from the time period as Richard the Lionhearted's disastrous crusades. Very "pre-rapier" indeed.

By the way, Norman, I love your website!

Kevin the Hound

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Pars Acuta in Alio (The Pointy End Goes into the Other Man)

Maunikar · Post by **Maunikar** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 4:05 pm

P.S. - Don't refer to it as Light Fighting. My tub of rapier equipment weighs 60 lbs, with masks, swords, daggers, bucklers, targets, chain gloves, fish, marshal batons, copies of DigGrassi and Marozzo, etc.

Oh, I'm well aware. I just wasn't sure what term we were using to refer to ourselves this week.

Seriously, I've heard "Don't call it Rapier, because we don't use Rapiers," "Don't call it fencing, we're rapier fighters", and my Barony calls our rapier champion the "Champion d'epÃ©"

Yikes!<hr>Stephen atte Smythe - <img src="http://junior.apk.net/~jdub/pics/OotA.gif" align=center border=0> - The Lycaeum Appendix
When I bite into a York Peppermint Patty, I get the sensation of a cold wind blowing through my chain mail...

Maunikar · Post by **Maunikar** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 4:10 pm

By the way, thanks for all the advice. I had planned on checking Triplette; I definitely will now.

Fortunately, my Lady and I are both capable of making the fencing jacket (she's just finishing hers, AAMOF). I just need to decide on the style - I'm c.1200, so I'm debating what I should make. I consider fencing something that I do completely outside of persona, though, so I'm debating going 16th C with this kit. ::shrug::

My primary concern is finding a weapon that won't tear my hand up...<hr>Stephen atte Smythe - <img src="http://junior.apk.net/~jdub/pics/OotA.gif" align=center border=0> - The Lycaeum Appendix
When I bite into a York Peppermint Patty, I get the sensation of a cold wind blowing through my chain mail...

schreiber · Post by **schreiber** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 4:31 pm

I beg to differ about the used mask issue. There is definitely a point where you should not buy a used mask, I agree there.

The reason why I suggested looking specifically at a fencing club for a used mask is that I had a great deal of success finding mine at one. I got a top of the line mask (haven't used it in years and can't tell you the brand) that would have retailed for about $120 or so for 70 dollars.

So, don't buy from a garage sale or high school, but if you check out fencing clubs, you'll be able to find something that may have been sparred in once or twice for cheap.

HELMUT

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 5:05 pm

Kevin --
By the way, Norman, I love your website!

Thank you. Thank you.

(there is four sites you know!?)

The Midrealm is Schlager only, so he doesn't have anything to worry about on that account.

Oooh -- I'm jealous !!

Triplette's jackets, while not being true period-looking, do look okay and function well. Not a bad place to start.

I take it you seen them up-close?
What's the period difficulty?
(I thought about getting one for my wife)

I'm with you on the rapier helm issue. I just ordered my Burgeonet today.
...
Incidentally, my persona is from the time period as Richard the Lionhearted's disastrous crusades. Very "pre-rapier" indeed.

Hey ?!?!
What gives?
You're falling victim to the Elizabethan fops!
Get a proper helmet for your period - I think a barrel helm (one of those earlier compact versions)!

The styles that a person can use and convert into something legal for SCA rapier are varied and numerous. I do stuff from DiGrassi, Marozzo, I.33, Silver and things learnd from swinging rattan for 20 years. After all, to quote Antonio Banderas : "The pointy end goes into the other man."

Righto.

Maunikar --
Seriously, I've heard "Don't call it Rapier, because we don't use Rapiers," "Don't call it fencing, we're rapier fighters", and my Barony calls our rapier champion the "Champion d'epÃ©"

Well - what do you call rattan fighting?
It should be something parallel.
Anyone who says "we're rapier fighters" is just trying to promote Elizabethan fop supremacy!
A Shlagger is as much a relative of the rapier as it is of the long-sword or saber.
Actually, considering the original use of Shlaggers -- their closest relatives are the Saber and Backsword (though in the SCA we're not allowed to use the "choping" cuts).

Fortunately, my Lady and I are both capable of making the fencing jacket (she's just finishing hers, AAMOF). I just need to decide on the style - I'm c.1200, so I'm debating what I should make.

I'd make it like a 13th century Padded Coat - to fit proper with the Barrel helm you'll be wearing.

I consider fencing something that I do completely outside of persona, though, so I'm debating going 16th C with this kit. ::shrug::

Why?
Stay in personna.
Get a personna kit.
Look good, look different.
...most inspiring site on the pensic fencing lists a few years back was a Viking fencer in Tunic, trewes...
and something that looked damned close to a spectacled helmet on a guy with a big fat beard (before fencing helmets started into use -- he managed to fake it with a mask)

My primary concern is finding a weapon that won't tear my hand up...

I don't understand what you mean here.
Weapons are generally not sposed to tear up our own hands.

schreiber
YMMV -
I'd rather get a cheap new mask from a reputable Fencing Supply then a used "top of the line".
I'm still using the same mask (a basic starter model) I got from Santelli when I started fencing in college (I really should get a new one though).

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 03-29-2001).]

Maunikar · Post by **Maunikar** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 5:23 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Well - what do you call rattan fighting?
It should be something parallel.
Anyone who says "we're rapier fighters" is just trying to promote Elizabethan fop supremacy!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well, in my area at least, we call rattan fighters "heavies." Now you see the confusion! Maybe I should just stick to 'swishy pokers.'

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I don't understand what you mean here.
Weapons are generally not sposed to tear up our own hands.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Prolly shouldn't have jsut dropped that in there... My bad, I'm in a hurry today, so my writing is a bit stream-of-consciousness. I believe I'm currently developing the first bits of carpal tunnel syndrome (or some similar repetative stress injury) from work, and small rapier handles seem to aggravate my hand. Of course, I may just not be used to it yet, or gripping too hard, or some such thing. Time will tell.<hr>Stephen atte Smythe - <img src="http://junior.apk.net/~jdub/pics/OotA.gif" align=center border=0> - The Lycaeum Appendix
When I bite into a York Peppermint Patty, I get the sensation of a cold wind blowing through my chain mail...

Kevin the Hound · Post by **Kevin the Hound** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 5:25 pm

In our area we refer to it as "Stick" fencing or "Steel" fencing. After all, in both cases we are practicing the "Art of Defense". As we often say in the Beaver Academy "Fighting is Fighting."

Kevin the Hound

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Pars Acuta in Alio (The Pointy End Goes into the Other Man)

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 5:43 pm

Maunikar --
What kind of grips have you tried?
Remember - only your thumb and forefinger actually hold the weapon.
The rest just guide.
...and if you have something with quilions - it's even less -- no fingers actually hold the sword really -- you loop the forefinger over the quilion, lay the thumb in it's normal place ...

Did someone show you how to hold the weapon?
When I was showing new fencers the ropes -- this little detail which everyone presumes to be nothing was actually quite crucial and took a little bit to master.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 03-29-2001).]

Sean Finlay · Post by **Sean Finlay** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 5:59 pm

Maunikar,

I'd like to recommend the weapons produced by Scott Wilson of Darkwood Armory. They are weighted and balanced more historically accurate than schlagers, and the practice rapier blade (developed by Scott and Fulvio Del Tin) handles very well at 42". I am a tall guy with long hands and my Darkwood's grip is very comfortable.

http://www.darkwoodarmory.com/ If you have any specific questions about my particular sword, please e-mail me.

SPF
HACA-DFW

losthelm · Post by **losthelm** » Thu Mar 29, 2001 10:15 pm

if you are looking for cheep grips check the local fencing groups and auction spots online the blades are not very good but the grips are almost always decent and the price is quite cheep.

Lyelf · Post by **Lyelf** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 2:42 am

Let me also encourage you to look at Darkwood Armory. I have a lovely Ring Hilt and a quite satisfactory gorget.

Triplette is a good place to start for a mask or jacket. The weapons do not balance or look as nice as Darkwood, but are half the price. I understand they are investigating a practice blade to compete with the Del Tin.

Sykes Sutlery has "Blackrose swept hilts." with a schlager blade they cost more than Triplette but less than Darkwood. Or, look into getting a swept hilt from an SCA merchant and fitting a blade to it. Even with a schlager blade, this will look and balance better than a Triplette cup hilt.

Other sources for equipment
http://www.christianfletcher.com/
http://www.infomagic.net/~gwylym/ta/ta.html
http://sykesutler.home.att.net/

And for swordsmanship,
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wew/fencing.html, especialy the training materials
http://www.musketeer.org/
http://www.thehaca.com/masters.htm, especially Joseph Sweatnam and Pallas Armata

Lyelf the Lame. The Elizabethan baron with the 12th century name [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[This message has been edited by Lyelf (edited 03-30-2001).]

Talon-of-Pentwyvern · Post by **Talon-of-Pentwyvern** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 9:04 am

Maunikar, If your in Cleveland right? Are you playing at Cleftlands? If so ask around for Gladius, he should have makes some of the best looking equipment I have seen and I know several people who use his stuff. If you want E-mail me and I'll introduce you.

Talon

Maunikar · Post by **Maunikar** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 9:46 am

Talon:

Yes, I do play Cleftlands, and I know Gladius. He made my Lady's blade; I just figured I'd shop around a bit.

But yes, he does make some beautiful stuff.<hr>Stephen atte Smythe - <img src="http://junior.apk.net/~jdub/pics/OotA.gif" align=center border=0> - The Lycaeum Appendix
When I bite into a York Peppermint Patty, I get the sensation of a cold wind blowing through my chain mail...

woodwose · Post by **woodwose** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 6:04 pm

for hilts and hilt furnature I'd recomend the work of Master Gregory from Popinjay's.
http://www.popinj.com
I have three hilts made by him and have never had any problems with them since whne I got them four to seven years ago. Popinjay's stuff tends to be a lot more expensive than Darkwoods but I think the quality is a lot better.. the welds on my darkwood swept hilt are kinda ugly, there was quite a lot of weld splatter that wasn't cleaned off, and it didn't have a mirror polish...

guess I'll just say that darkwood's stuff is "functional" and popinjay's stuff is pretty and functional.

Norman, that guy with the early period (early for what most SCA people go for with fencing) that you mentioned, I think I've seen him at a few east kingdom events.. or maybe it was some other viking fencer with a face painted on his mask and a big fake beard stuck to it.. heck I just remembered I have a newspaper clipping with a picture of him in it. I don't get it.. he spent all that time doing stuff to a fencing mask to make him look more like a viking or whatever, but everytime I see him he's still fencing with modern epee hilts

Hob · Post by **Hob** » Fri Mar 30, 2001 10:55 pm

My two cents...

I own one of the triplette fencing tunics and fight in it for practices. They're very functional, especially the fact that they fasten all the way up to the neck with velcro, so after a hot bout I can rip it open to recover.

They don't really look period at all, to my eye, but a tunic or tabard will cover them well enough.

For a weapon, triplette's epees are great, but they like to push the extra stout and musketeer epees on newbies and they really aren't great for learning. My extra stiff epee from them is actually less flexible than either of my schlagers! If you're a new person with the usual control problems, they're not a great choice.

For schlagers, try Scotty at www.rapiers.com . If Darkwood's work is at about an B+/A-, Scotty's a solid A. His prices are good, but his delivery times can be a bit erratic.

Pietro da San Tebaldo · Fri Mar 30, 2001 11:39 pm

My Lord ::local "hello::-

Triplette has a "SCA" mask, all-black furnishings, which cost ~$75 at Pennsic, probably ~$80ish with shipping. Try a few on to find the right size - 1-5 to fit micro-skulls to mega-melons. Highly recommended. Their hoods & gorgets are not so highly... (Sarah Erie-sea, if you can contact her, makes an excellent hood and would probably provide a copy of the pattern for the asking...).

When the shoulder's back to ~ 80%, I'll be back out there, making up for lost time!

Pietro

Lyelf · Post by **Lyelf** » Sat Mar 31, 2001 2:45 pm

Popinjay's stuff is beautiful, but it is still on schlagers (he said sadly).

Darkwood has the 42" Del Tin blades, and that makes up for a lot of sins (some people think the Del Tin is too flexible, but it works for me). If you want a polished hilt, you can pay fifty bucks more. Or borrow a Dremel tool.

Scotty makes his own blades. The standard blade is better balanced than a schlager and stiffer than a Del Tin, but it is still 35-37" long. You can get a longer blade as a custom order, but it costs a lot. Finish is excellent, but I never liked the hilt styles he offerred. Certainly, a matter of taste.

Has anyone used the Black Rose Creation hilts? They are now sold through Sykes Sutlery with schlager blades.

MaskedWelshman · Post by **MaskedWelshman** » Sun Apr 01, 2001 7:02 pm

Just for the record, Shinai fighting as "real" SCA hasn't been allowed for years. I guess there was a time when combat archers were allowed to engage each other with Shinai. That, however, is no longer allowed for whatever reason.

You can usually find a few folks working with shinai at events, but it's un-official, and on their own.....

Keep in mind, we're the West, so it will probably change at some point.... when I got in five years ago, a King had just "outlawed" fencing completely. Popular decision....... (insert sarcastic smiley here).

------------------
God save the Infidels.

Wintermark, Home of Tristan and Katrina

Reinhard · Post by **Reinhard** » Sun Apr 01, 2001 8:31 pm

Some comments from a newbie . . .

I love SCA fencing, I don't care what it's called. In Lochac we also use fibreglass swords, which are brilliant. Don't be taken in by all this macho guff, f/g is great, it sounds funny when the blades touch but it's very safe and allows you to do things you wouldn't dare do with a schlagger. It also only bends on the bias, and feels very similiar to an antique rapier I've handled. (I didn't stab anyone with it, so I can't give you a comparison on point striking)
The best thing about SCA fencing, ist that olympic style fencing (which I spent years doing) is where the sports freaks go, so it's a real persona thing!

Honestly, try a f/g weapon, build it according to the rules, but it can be any style you like! Elizabethan fishing rods, earlier stiff little estocs, whatever is right for your persona.

(Gotta get my zischagge built!)

Maunikar · Post by **Maunikar** » Mon Apr 02, 2001 1:24 pm

Thanks for the replies everyone! I think I now have more information than I'll know what to do with for a long time.

For what it's worth, I had my second intense practice yesterday. Things went quite well, and my wrist is hardly cracky at all today. I think I must have been gripping too hard last week.

Of course, at the end of the day, the group recommended I try my hand at one of the 'oversize' blades - in addition to having no point control, my sword-forearm is tired beyond usefulness today! Still, it was a good experience (if for no other reason than I know not to try that for a while...

)

Pietro: Greets! I actually already have a hood from Sarah. Thanks for the advice, though!

Again, everyone, thanks a lot!<hr>Stephen atte Smythe - <img src="http://junior.apk.net/~jdub/pics/OotA.gif" align=center border=0> - The Lycaeum Appendix
When I bite into a York Peppermint Patty, I get the sensation of a cold wind blowing through my chain mail...