I'm sorry if this gets a little long.
SCA heavy combat is geared towards recreating a tournament-like setting. Because tournaments took different forms in different places at different times, authenticity was not an over-riding priority, and because historically accurate information was more difficult to come by the rules are rather fuzzy. They aren't perfect for any of the situations they try to cover. This is particularly true when the rules are extended to cover 'wars'.
People have proposed other ways of doing things. I'd just like to see if I'm clear on what people are proposing and if there are other ways of doing this. The methods, other than traditional SCA, that I know of are:
Counted blows. There seem to be two different ways of doing this, one I understand, the other I'm a little fuzzy on. The first way is to set a number of blows to be received (say 5) the first person to receive this number of blows (to any legal target areas) yields the fight. Wounds are not acted out. The second is to set a number of blows to be exchanged (say 5). Each participant gets to swing his weapon only that many times and the judges declare the winner? Are wounds acted out? The second method is the one I have read the most period references to (other than setting a number of lances to break or a number of jousting passes to make).
Timed bouts. The fighters set a time limit and fight until the end of that time. The winner may be decided by a judge or judges or by counting the number of blows received (person who received the least blows, to any legal target area, wins). Wounds are most definitely not acted out. Alternatively, a fighter may choose to yield before the time is up. I am not aware of any historical examples of this sort of fighting.
Embellishments to the above: Fighting at the barrier. Fighting at the barrier in the German style (no stepping back from the barrier). Holmgang style (fighting on a cloak or in a small, defined area that cannot be exited without forfeiting the bout). Breaking weapons or shields (fighting until a set number of weapons or shields have been broken).
What have I missed?
Alternative ways to fight......
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Gaston
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I've been trying to devise a way of fighting a contest "a outrance", which I believe in period referred to a contest until one of the fighters cannot continue (in some cases this meant to the death).
My idea so far:
A fight at the barrier, in the German style (no retreating out of range), until one fighter cannot continue, i.e., is exhausted and can throw no more telling blows. I most assuredly do NOT mean until beaten down by excessive force, but if I was getting hit with a lot of solid blows which I could not answer, I would yield.
This is very much a contest of honor, since you must put Pride behind you and admit when you have been bested, and there is nothing but your own judgment to decide that. As such I would only offer it in certain situations, where I felt assured that the contestants would comply with the spirit of the event. And, I can just as easily see the gallery awarding the prize to the one who yielded, if doing so showed great chivalry.
Let me also add that I think it is a terrible idea for an open SCA event.
My idea so far:
A fight at the barrier, in the German style (no retreating out of range), until one fighter cannot continue, i.e., is exhausted and can throw no more telling blows. I most assuredly do NOT mean until beaten down by excessive force, but if I was getting hit with a lot of solid blows which I could not answer, I would yield.
This is very much a contest of honor, since you must put Pride behind you and admit when you have been bested, and there is nothing but your own judgment to decide that. As such I would only offer it in certain situations, where I felt assured that the contestants would comply with the spirit of the event. And, I can just as easily see the gallery awarding the prize to the one who yielded, if doing so showed great chivalry.
Let me also add that I think it is a terrible idea for an open SCA event.
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Asbjorn Johansen
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Hey Jester,
As one of the big proponents of more authentic combat I’ll give a quick run through of my take on these.
The most important thing to remember is that having a definitive winner in the way that we think of it, was not as important in period as it is to us in the SCA (and many other modern organization). Often period tournaments would end with the combatants being told “you have done enoughâ€
As one of the big proponents of more authentic combat I’ll give a quick run through of my take on these.
The most important thing to remember is that having a definitive winner in the way that we think of it, was not as important in period as it is to us in the SCA (and many other modern organization). Often period tournaments would end with the combatants being told “you have done enoughâ€
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Vitus von Atzinger
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Asbjorn, that was a great post. Thank you.
Your post brings to my mind a couple of points:
1) The goal of a bout is not necessarily to 'win'. This point is admirably addressed in Duke Finvarr's "Fighting for Fun?..." article.
2) There are historically accurate means of fighting.
3) There are historically accurate means of determing the 'victor'.
So, we might encounter a situation where two combatants agree to meet at the barrier, exchange fifteen blows, and the victor is to be determined by three judges. The judges might agree that one combatant was the victor where the crowd or other combatants might disagree. Another possible example would be where two combatants agree to meet and exchange thirty blows. At the end of that time they will determine amongst themselves who was the victor, perhaps exchanging more blows until such time as the outcome is clear in their minds or the marshals require them to quit the field.
The point of these examples is that there are historically accurate elements that can be combined (whether or not my examples are valid combinations I leave to the better educated, I simply made them up) to create a more authentic bout.
Has anybody compiled a list of these elements? This would seem to me, to be very useful.
Your post brings to my mind a couple of points:
1) The goal of a bout is not necessarily to 'win'. This point is admirably addressed in Duke Finvarr's "Fighting for Fun?..." article.
2) There are historically accurate means of fighting.
3) There are historically accurate means of determing the 'victor'.
So, we might encounter a situation where two combatants agree to meet at the barrier, exchange fifteen blows, and the victor is to be determined by three judges. The judges might agree that one combatant was the victor where the crowd or other combatants might disagree. Another possible example would be where two combatants agree to meet and exchange thirty blows. At the end of that time they will determine amongst themselves who was the victor, perhaps exchanging more blows until such time as the outcome is clear in their minds or the marshals require them to quit the field.
The point of these examples is that there are historically accurate elements that can be combined (whether or not my examples are valid combinations I leave to the better educated, I simply made them up) to create a more authentic bout.
Has anybody compiled a list of these elements? This would seem to me, to be very useful.
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Otto von Teich
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These are all great ways to do combat. I think it would be much more fun than fighting one armed, on knees, till the 1st telling blow to body, head ect.As long as the combatants are even tempered and agree to accept the opinion of the judges, marshall or gallery, I think I would prefer the timed bout.Of course yeilding would be veryu acceptable to in my opinion. Say if Vitus hit me 20 times and I only hit him 4,within a two minute period,I might readily yeild before the official time was up....Otto
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Micah_Rose
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In reference to Gaston's post above:
It's been my understanding that of the two "forms" of combat offered to an opponent "a plaisance" meant a fight for the love of honorable combat with no hard feelings between the fighters; the combat "a outrance" was a challenge made in anger and the fight would indeed continue until one man was dead or maimed.
As for endurance type fighting in general, I agree with you that it is not appropriate for an SCA event. In my opinion it seems to be only an invitation to disaster - there will always be one guy who won't quit and end up dead or worse because of it. And that will cast a pall over ALL armored combat sports. Don't try this at home, kids.
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Long live the Prince and Princess of Cynagua!
It's been my understanding that of the two "forms" of combat offered to an opponent "a plaisance" meant a fight for the love of honorable combat with no hard feelings between the fighters; the combat "a outrance" was a challenge made in anger and the fight would indeed continue until one man was dead or maimed.
As for endurance type fighting in general, I agree with you that it is not appropriate for an SCA event. In my opinion it seems to be only an invitation to disaster - there will always be one guy who won't quit and end up dead or worse because of it. And that will cast a pall over ALL armored combat sports. Don't try this at home, kids.
------------------
Long live the Prince and Princess of Cynagua!
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Gaston
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Micah_Rose:
<B>In reference to Gaston's post above:
It's been my understanding that of the two "forms" of combat offered to an opponent "a plaisance" meant a fight for the love of honorable combat with no hard feelings between the fighters; the combat "a outrance" was a challenge made in anger and the fight would indeed continue until one man was dead or maimed.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You may be right, indeed. I think the conditions for each varied a lot.
My modern French dictionary lists plaisance as "pleasure" (there is no entry for it in my Old French dictionary, so the meaning may be the same).
The same Old French dictionary explains outrance as "violence", and something done "a outrance" as done to vanquish or defeat. The modern French dictionary shows outrance as "extreme, excess" and "a outrance" as "to the death". This makes me think that outrance = death is a modern idea, not a medieval one.
Are there cases of tourneys plainly stated to be Combat a Plaisance where participants fought to the submission of one of the parties?
[This message has been edited by Gaston (edited 04-05-2001).]
<B>In reference to Gaston's post above:
It's been my understanding that of the two "forms" of combat offered to an opponent "a plaisance" meant a fight for the love of honorable combat with no hard feelings between the fighters; the combat "a outrance" was a challenge made in anger and the fight would indeed continue until one man was dead or maimed.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You may be right, indeed. I think the conditions for each varied a lot.
My modern French dictionary lists plaisance as "pleasure" (there is no entry for it in my Old French dictionary, so the meaning may be the same).
The same Old French dictionary explains outrance as "violence", and something done "a outrance" as done to vanquish or defeat. The modern French dictionary shows outrance as "extreme, excess" and "a outrance" as "to the death". This makes me think that outrance = death is a modern idea, not a medieval one.
Are there cases of tourneys plainly stated to be Combat a Plaisance where participants fought to the submission of one of the parties?
[This message has been edited by Gaston (edited 04-05-2001).]
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Morgan
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Micah_Rose, I wanted to clairfy something... I may be misinterpreting the original post or maybe I just didn't read you clearly...or even both. But it was stated that the endurance version of single combat was not appropriate in OPEN SCA events, not that it was not appropriate to the SCA. I think there are a LOT of SCAdians who would be just fine with this type of tourney and would enjoy it greatly and not abuse themselves or their brothers in arms in this format.
But it was stated that the endurance version of single combat was not appropriate in OPEN SCA events, not that it was not appropriate to the SCA. I think there are a LOT of SCAdians who would be just fine with this type of tourney and would enjoy it greatly and not abuse themselves or their brothers in arms in this format.-
Micah_Rose
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Morgan - I'm sure that a lot of SCAdian fighters would get into this style of endurance fighting. I can think of at least one notable example in my own Company. Heck, even I might try it once or twice. If for no other reason than to say I had BTDT.
The essence of my comment on it was that no matter how many guys play it in the manner intended, there is ultimately going to be that ONE lummox who goes too far and ends up maimed. One bad apple as it were.
And back to the a plaisance/a outrance thing, I had another thought. In Arthurian romances especially I have noticed that the knights offer to fight "for love, without terms". I have gathered from context that it means they want to fight for fun, and the loser will owe nothing to the victor. But that doesn't seem to cover it all the way either as melees and such offered a plaisance involved the ransoming of defeated opponents and their harness and such. Maybe it's just one of those terms that has a general meaning and the true intent of the speaker is derived from context.
------------------
Long live the Prince and Princess of Cynagua!
The essence of my comment on it was that no matter how many guys play it in the manner intended, there is ultimately going to be that ONE lummox who goes too far and ends up maimed. One bad apple as it were.
And back to the a plaisance/a outrance thing, I had another thought. In Arthurian romances especially I have noticed that the knights offer to fight "for love, without terms". I have gathered from context that it means they want to fight for fun, and the loser will owe nothing to the victor. But that doesn't seem to cover it all the way either as melees and such offered a plaisance involved the ransoming of defeated opponents and their harness and such. Maybe it's just one of those terms that has a general meaning and the true intent of the speaker is derived from context.
------------------
Long live the Prince and Princess of Cynagua!
Okay, I've had an idea so, in the best traditions of my upbringing 'Hey, ya'll watch this!'
Let's put the collective knowledge of the Archive to work. I invite you to submit information regarding historically accurate methods of tournament combat. Your start date is the fall of Rome (approx. 476 AD) and your end date is 1650 AD. We will standardize the data:
-Method of Fighting:
(Example: Counted blows delivered. Each combatant to deliver twenty blows. At the barrier.)
-Method of Judging:
(Example: No method given)
-Time period:
(Example: late 14th Century)
-Locale:
(Example: Northern France)
-Source:
(Example: Chronicles by Froissart, book 12)
-Excerpt:
(Provide a brief quote that illustrates the method.)
I will compile the entries in a single whole, put them in HTML format and make it available to everyone and their brother. All credit will go the Archive.
I think this would be useful for people trying to encourage more historically accurate recreation. It could be given to interested people for a quick primer. It could be published in newsletters.
Anyone interested?
Let's put the collective knowledge of the Archive to work. I invite you to submit information regarding historically accurate methods of tournament combat. Your start date is the fall of Rome (approx. 476 AD) and your end date is 1650 AD. We will standardize the data:
-Method of Fighting:
(Example: Counted blows delivered. Each combatant to deliver twenty blows. At the barrier.)
-Method of Judging:
(Example: No method given)
-Time period:
(Example: late 14th Century)
-Locale:
(Example: Northern France)
-Source:
(Example: Chronicles by Froissart, book 12)
-Excerpt:
(Provide a brief quote that illustrates the method.)
I will compile the entries in a single whole, put them in HTML format and make it available to everyone and their brother. All credit will go the Archive.
I think this would be useful for people trying to encourage more historically accurate recreation. It could be given to interested people for a quick primer. It could be published in newsletters.
Anyone interested?
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Robert Clark Carruth
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Otto von Teich
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- Location: The Great State of Texas.
Method:
Not Given
Judging:
Twenty good blows delivered or submission.
Time Period:
Novel written in the late 1400s (published in 1490), time period story takes place in ???
Locale:
Novel written in Catalonia (Spain), set in the Eastern Mediterranean/North Africa.
Source:
"Tirant lo Blanc" (The White Knight). Available free, online via Project Gutenburg.
Excerpt:
"My lord, on the eve of the appointed day, Tirant went to where the twenty-six knights were. When he was at their door he delivered a document stating that any knight who wanted to joust against him would have to battle until one of them had drawn blood twenty times, or until either of them gave up."
Not Given
Judging:
Twenty good blows delivered or submission.
Time Period:
Novel written in the late 1400s (published in 1490), time period story takes place in ???
Locale:
Novel written in Catalonia (Spain), set in the Eastern Mediterranean/North Africa.
Source:
"Tirant lo Blanc" (The White Knight). Available free, online via Project Gutenburg.
Excerpt:
"My lord, on the eve of the appointed day, Tirant went to where the twenty-six knights were. When he was at their door he delivered a document stating that any knight who wanted to joust against him would have to battle until one of them had drawn blood twenty times, or until either of them gave up."
Method:
Jousting, break six spears each.
Judging:
No method given.
Time Period:
1438
Locale:
Paris
Source:
Original document translated by Brian Price. Full translation available free, online at:
http://www.chronique.com/Library/Tourneys/PierredeMasse.htm
Excerpt:
"The first article is that we between us shall be armed upon horseback in double harness without any shield or other equipment of advantage, both of us armed as seems best to us for to break between us six spears each or twelve spears in whole down the length with such greatness that either of us may do at our pleasure. "
Jousting, break six spears each.
Judging:
No method given.
Time Period:
1438
Locale:
Paris
Source:
Original document translated by Brian Price. Full translation available free, online at:
http://www.chronique.com/Library/Tourneys/PierredeMasse.htm
Excerpt:
"The first article is that we between us shall be armed upon horseback in double harness without any shield or other equipment of advantage, both of us armed as seems best to us for to break between us six spears each or twelve spears in whole down the length with such greatness that either of us may do at our pleasure. "
Method:
3 Jousts with a lance
3 Attacks with a sword
3 Attacks with a lance
3 Attacks with a dagger
Judging:
None given.
Time Period:
14th Century
Locale:
Spain
Source:
Chronicles of Froissart. This passage available for free, online at:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1385gaunt-portugal.html
Excerpt:
"During the stay of the Duke of Lancaster in Entenga, a herald arrived from Valladolid, who demanded where Sir John Holland was lodged. On being shown thither, he found Sir John within; and, hending his knee, presented him with a letter, saying, "Sir, I am a herald-at-arms, whom Sir Reginald de Roye sends hither: he salutes you by me, and you will be pleased to read this letter." Sir John answered he would willingly do so. Having opened it, he read that Sir Reginald de Roye entreated him, for the love of his mistress, that he would deliver him from his vow, by tilting with him three courses with the lance, three attacks with the sword, three with the battle-axe, and three with the dagger; and that, if he chose to come to Valladolid, he had provided him an escort of sixty spears; but, if it were more agreeable to him to remain in Entenca, he desired he would obtain from the Duke of Lancaster a passport for himself and thirty companions."
3 Jousts with a lance
3 Attacks with a sword
3 Attacks with a lance
3 Attacks with a dagger
Judging:
None given.
Time Period:
14th Century
Locale:
Spain
Source:
Chronicles of Froissart. This passage available for free, online at:
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/1385gaunt-portugal.html
Excerpt:
"During the stay of the Duke of Lancaster in Entenga, a herald arrived from Valladolid, who demanded where Sir John Holland was lodged. On being shown thither, he found Sir John within; and, hending his knee, presented him with a letter, saying, "Sir, I am a herald-at-arms, whom Sir Reginald de Roye sends hither: he salutes you by me, and you will be pleased to read this letter." Sir John answered he would willingly do so. Having opened it, he read that Sir Reginald de Roye entreated him, for the love of his mistress, that he would deliver him from his vow, by tilting with him three courses with the lance, three attacks with the sword, three with the battle-axe, and three with the dagger; and that, if he chose to come to Valladolid, he had provided him an escort of sixty spears; but, if it were more agreeable to him to remain in Entenca, he desired he would obtain from the Duke of Lancaster a passport for himself and thirty companions."
Method:
On foot.
Judging:
To the death.
Time period:
Novel written in the late 1400's, published in 1490. Story takes place in an unspecified earlier time.
Locale:
Novel written in Catalonia (Spain). Story takes place in Eastern Mediterranean/North Africa.
Source:
"Tirant lo Blanc" (The White Knight) Available free, online through Project Gutenburg.
Excerpt:
"My lord, when Tirant was well again, he gathered all his company once more, and we went to the twenty-five knights. He gave them a written document stating that he wished to fight a knight on foot and to the death, and they accepted. Tirant went into the list armed in the normal fashion, with an ax, a sword, and a dagger. When they were inside the pavilion everything necessary was prepared. The sunlight was divided so that it would not shine into one man's eyes any more than into the other's."
On foot.
Judging:
To the death.
Time period:
Novel written in the late 1400's, published in 1490. Story takes place in an unspecified earlier time.
Locale:
Novel written in Catalonia (Spain). Story takes place in Eastern Mediterranean/North Africa.
Source:
"Tirant lo Blanc" (The White Knight) Available free, online through Project Gutenburg.
Excerpt:
"My lord, when Tirant was well again, he gathered all his company once more, and we went to the twenty-five knights. He gave them a written document stating that he wished to fight a knight on foot and to the death, and they accepted. Tirant went into the list armed in the normal fashion, with an ax, a sword, and a dagger. When they were inside the pavilion everything necessary was prepared. The sunlight was divided so that it would not shine into one man's eyes any more than into the other's."
Method:
3 jousts with lance
3 blows with battle-axe
3 strokes with dagger
Judging:
Not given.
Time Period:
14th Century
Locale:
Northern France
Source:
Chronicles of Froissart. This portion available free, online at:
http://www.unipissing.ca/department/history/froissart/gauvain.htm
Excerpt:
"During the skirmish at Toury, a squire from Beauce, a gentleman of tried courage, who had advanced himself by his own merit, without any assistance from others, came to the barriers, and cried out to the English, "Is there among you any gentleman who for the love of his lady is willing to try with me some feat of arms? If there should be any such, here I am, quite ready to sally forth completely armed and mounted, to tilt three courses with the lance, to give three blows with the battle axe, and three strokes with the dagger. Now look, you English, if there be none among you in love."
...
Gauvian Micaille was much rejoiced on hearing these words. He immediately armed himself, in which the lords assisted, in putting on the different pieces, and mounted him on a horse, which they gave to him. Attended by two others, he came out of the castle; and his varlets carried three lances, three battle-axes, and three daggers. He was much looked at by the English, for they did not think any Frenchman would have engaged body to body. There were besides to be three strokes with a sword, and with all other sorts of arms. Gauvain had had three brought with him for fear any should break.
The earl of Buckingham, hearing of this combat, said he would see it, and mounted his horse, attended by the earls of Stafford and Devonshire. On this account, the assault on Toury ceased. The Englishman that was to tilt was brought forward, completely armed and mounted on a good horse. When they had taken their stations, they gave to each of them a spear, and the tilt began; but neither of them struck the other, form the mettlesomeness of their horses. They hit the second onset, but it was by darting their spears; on which the earl of Buckingham cried out, "Hola hola! It is now late."
He then said to the constable, "Put an end to it, for they have done enough this day: we will make them finish it when we have more leisure than we have at this moment, and take great care that as much attention is paid to the French squire as to our own; and order some one to tell those in the castle not to be uneasy about him, for we shall carry him with us to complete his enterprise, but not as a prisoner; and that when he shall have been delivered, if he escape with his life, we will send him back in all safety."
...
On the day of the feast of our Lady, Gauvain Micaille and Joachim Cator were armed, and mounted to finish their engagement. They met each other roughly with spears, and the French squire tilted much to the satisfaction of the earl: but the Englishman kept his spear too low, and at last struck it into the thigh of the Frenchman. The earl of Buckingham as well as the other lords were much enraged by this, and said it was tilting dishonorably; but he excused himself, by declaring it was solely owing to the restiveness of his horse. Then were given the three thrusts with the sword; and the earl declared they had done enough, and would not have it longer continued, for he perceived the French squire bled exceedingly: the other lords were of the same opinion. Gauvain Micaille was therefore disarmed and his wound dressed.
The earl sent him one hundred francs by a herald, with leave to return to his own garrison in safety, adding that he had acquitted himself much to his satisfaction."
3 jousts with lance
3 blows with battle-axe
3 strokes with dagger
Judging:
Not given.
Time Period:
14th Century
Locale:
Northern France
Source:
Chronicles of Froissart. This portion available free, online at:
http://www.unipissing.ca/department/history/froissart/gauvain.htm
Excerpt:
"During the skirmish at Toury, a squire from Beauce, a gentleman of tried courage, who had advanced himself by his own merit, without any assistance from others, came to the barriers, and cried out to the English, "Is there among you any gentleman who for the love of his lady is willing to try with me some feat of arms? If there should be any such, here I am, quite ready to sally forth completely armed and mounted, to tilt three courses with the lance, to give three blows with the battle axe, and three strokes with the dagger. Now look, you English, if there be none among you in love."
...
Gauvian Micaille was much rejoiced on hearing these words. He immediately armed himself, in which the lords assisted, in putting on the different pieces, and mounted him on a horse, which they gave to him. Attended by two others, he came out of the castle; and his varlets carried three lances, three battle-axes, and three daggers. He was much looked at by the English, for they did not think any Frenchman would have engaged body to body. There were besides to be three strokes with a sword, and with all other sorts of arms. Gauvain had had three brought with him for fear any should break.
The earl of Buckingham, hearing of this combat, said he would see it, and mounted his horse, attended by the earls of Stafford and Devonshire. On this account, the assault on Toury ceased. The Englishman that was to tilt was brought forward, completely armed and mounted on a good horse. When they had taken their stations, they gave to each of them a spear, and the tilt began; but neither of them struck the other, form the mettlesomeness of their horses. They hit the second onset, but it was by darting their spears; on which the earl of Buckingham cried out, "Hola hola! It is now late."
He then said to the constable, "Put an end to it, for they have done enough this day: we will make them finish it when we have more leisure than we have at this moment, and take great care that as much attention is paid to the French squire as to our own; and order some one to tell those in the castle not to be uneasy about him, for we shall carry him with us to complete his enterprise, but not as a prisoner; and that when he shall have been delivered, if he escape with his life, we will send him back in all safety."
...
On the day of the feast of our Lady, Gauvain Micaille and Joachim Cator were armed, and mounted to finish their engagement. They met each other roughly with spears, and the French squire tilted much to the satisfaction of the earl: but the Englishman kept his spear too low, and at last struck it into the thigh of the Frenchman. The earl of Buckingham as well as the other lords were much enraged by this, and said it was tilting dishonorably; but he excused himself, by declaring it was solely owing to the restiveness of his horse. Then were given the three thrusts with the sword; and the earl declared they had done enough, and would not have it longer continued, for he perceived the French squire bled exceedingly: the other lords were of the same opinion. Gauvain Micaille was therefore disarmed and his wound dressed.
The earl sent him one hundred francs by a herald, with leave to return to his own garrison in safety, adding that he had acquitted himself much to his satisfaction."
Method:
3 jousts with lance
Judging:
None given
Time Period:
14th Century
Locale:
Northern France
Source:
Chronicles of Froissart. This portion available free, online at:
http://www.unipissing.ca/department/history/froissart/prelude.htm
Excerpt:
"He therefore, on taking leave, said,-" Sir Piers, you are now on the lands of the king of England, whither I have escorted you, by orders of my king and my lord of Burgundy. You may recollect that, the day before yesterday, when we were in the apartment of the countess do St. Pol, who entertained us handsomely, you spoke with too great latitude, as it seemed to me, and too much to the blame and prejudice of the French chivalry for you said, you had come to the court of the king of France, and had found none willing to oppose you in arms: and you seemed to have it understood, that there was not a knight in France who dared to tilt with you three courses with a lance. I wish you therefore to know, that I (who am one of the smallest knights of the realm) offer myself, to maintain that France is not so devoid of knights, but that you may find many willing to accept your challenge; and if you will accept of me to this intent, either this day or to-morrow, I will meet you without hatred or any ill-will. It is solely with a view to defend our honour, andthat you may not return to Calais or England, and boast you have defeated the chivalry of France without striking a blow: now, say whether you will accept my challenge or not."
Sir Piers Courteney was ready with his answer, and said,-" Lord de Clary, you speak well: I accept your challenge, and propose that you be at this place to-morrow, armed as you please. I will be so likewise; and we will tilt three courses with the lance, by which you will recover the honour of France, and give me much satisfaction."
...
Both of them were strongly and completely armed, to abide the event, such as the fortune of arms should decide, and they were well mounted. They had their targets fast buckled on, and their lances given them, which were of sharp, well-tempered Bordeaux steel. Having taken their distance, they spurred their horses full gallop, against each other, hut missed their strokes, which seemed to vex them greatly. On the second course, they met full; and the lord de Clary gave sir Piers so severe a blow with his stiff and well-tempered lance, that it pierced the target, and, entering deeply into the shoulder, struck him off his horse. The lord de Clary, having so ably tilted, passed on, and finished his career as an accomplished knight should, and remained quiet; but seeing the English knight was unhorsed, surrounded by his friends as he lay on the ground, and thinking that he might have wounded him, for his lance with the blow was shivered in pieces, rode towards him. The English advanced to meet him, saying he was not a courteous tilter.
"Why so?" replied the lord de Clary.
"Because you have thrust your lance into sir Piers' shoulder: you ought and could have tilted more liberally."
"It was not my part to be over courteous; for I was ready prepared to meet with such an accident, or perhaps a worse, if it had so happened: but since he had such pleasure in justing, ask him, or I will for you, if he be satisfied, or wish for more."
Sir John Bernes, upon this, said,-" No, sir knight: you may depart, for you have done enough." The lord de Clary went away with his company, and the English carried sir Piers Courteney to Calais, that his wound might be attended to and cured. The lord de Clary returned to France, expecting to receive great praise for the goodly act he thought he had done: but I will tell you how it turned out."
3 jousts with lance
Judging:
None given
Time Period:
14th Century
Locale:
Northern France
Source:
Chronicles of Froissart. This portion available free, online at:
http://www.unipissing.ca/department/history/froissart/prelude.htm
Excerpt:
"He therefore, on taking leave, said,-" Sir Piers, you are now on the lands of the king of England, whither I have escorted you, by orders of my king and my lord of Burgundy. You may recollect that, the day before yesterday, when we were in the apartment of the countess do St. Pol, who entertained us handsomely, you spoke with too great latitude, as it seemed to me, and too much to the blame and prejudice of the French chivalry for you said, you had come to the court of the king of France, and had found none willing to oppose you in arms: and you seemed to have it understood, that there was not a knight in France who dared to tilt with you three courses with a lance. I wish you therefore to know, that I (who am one of the smallest knights of the realm) offer myself, to maintain that France is not so devoid of knights, but that you may find many willing to accept your challenge; and if you will accept of me to this intent, either this day or to-morrow, I will meet you without hatred or any ill-will. It is solely with a view to defend our honour, andthat you may not return to Calais or England, and boast you have defeated the chivalry of France without striking a blow: now, say whether you will accept my challenge or not."
Sir Piers Courteney was ready with his answer, and said,-" Lord de Clary, you speak well: I accept your challenge, and propose that you be at this place to-morrow, armed as you please. I will be so likewise; and we will tilt three courses with the lance, by which you will recover the honour of France, and give me much satisfaction."
...
Both of them were strongly and completely armed, to abide the event, such as the fortune of arms should decide, and they were well mounted. They had their targets fast buckled on, and their lances given them, which were of sharp, well-tempered Bordeaux steel. Having taken their distance, they spurred their horses full gallop, against each other, hut missed their strokes, which seemed to vex them greatly. On the second course, they met full; and the lord de Clary gave sir Piers so severe a blow with his stiff and well-tempered lance, that it pierced the target, and, entering deeply into the shoulder, struck him off his horse. The lord de Clary, having so ably tilted, passed on, and finished his career as an accomplished knight should, and remained quiet; but seeing the English knight was unhorsed, surrounded by his friends as he lay on the ground, and thinking that he might have wounded him, for his lance with the blow was shivered in pieces, rode towards him. The English advanced to meet him, saying he was not a courteous tilter.
"Why so?" replied the lord de Clary.
"Because you have thrust your lance into sir Piers' shoulder: you ought and could have tilted more liberally."
"It was not my part to be over courteous; for I was ready prepared to meet with such an accident, or perhaps a worse, if it had so happened: but since he had such pleasure in justing, ask him, or I will for you, if he be satisfied, or wish for more."
Sir John Bernes, upon this, said,-" No, sir knight: you may depart, for you have done enough." The lord de Clary went away with his company, and the English carried sir Piers Courteney to Calais, that his wound might be attended to and cured. The lord de Clary returned to France, expecting to receive great praise for the goodly act he thought he had done: but I will tell you how it turned out."
In the course of digging up the references I have provided I came across these web sites that I thought might be of interest to archive readers:
http://www.nadn.navy.mil/Users/history/abels/hh381/Chivalry.htm
A good historical discourse on chivalry in general.
http://www.unipissing.ca/department/history/tourbib.htm
A reference list of tournament sources.
http://www.unipissing.ca/department/history/froissart/inglever.htm
A description of the tournamen at St. Inglevert.
http://www.princeton.edu/~ezb/rene/renehome.html
King Rene's tournament book.
http://www.users.wineasy.se/gilliam/ReneTourney/Contents.htm
An account of an SCA Behourdium, very nice
http://www.vikinganswerlady.org/holmgang.htm
Holmgang information. Very good.
http://icg.harvard.edu/~chaucer/special/lifemann/tournmt/ben-tour.htm
Tournament history based on mentions in period romances, good.
http://www.nadn.navy.mil/Users/history/abels/hh381/Chivalry.htm
A good historical discourse on chivalry in general.
http://www.unipissing.ca/department/history/tourbib.htm
A reference list of tournament sources.
http://www.unipissing.ca/department/history/froissart/inglever.htm
A description of the tournamen at St. Inglevert.
http://www.princeton.edu/~ezb/rene/renehome.html
King Rene's tournament book.
http://www.users.wineasy.se/gilliam/ReneTourney/Contents.htm
An account of an SCA Behourdium, very nice
http://www.vikinganswerlady.org/holmgang.htm
Holmgang information. Very good.
http://icg.harvard.edu/~chaucer/special/lifemann/tournmt/ben-tour.htm
Tournament history based on mentions in period romances, good.
Method:
Jousting until one combatant has broken six spears.
Combat on foot:
Each combatant hurling a spear or sword.
Fighting to continue with polaxes, swords or daggers [the typical weapons selection of a dismounted knight].
Judging:
Fighting to continue until one combatant touched the ground with a hand, knee, or his body.
Fight was actually ended when the judge saw one combatant had gained a significant advantage and threw down his baton [a symbol of authority dating back to the Roman Empire].
Time Period:
1445
Locale:
Antwerp (Belgium)
Source:
An excellent essay "The Deeds of Jaques Lalaing" available from The HACA at:
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/Lalaing.htm
I highly recommend reading this article.
Excerpt:
"The rules of the combat were laid out in a document called the "chapters of arms." The conditions laid down by Sir Jean de Boniface were as follows: The combat was to begin on horseback, continuing until one of the combatants broke 6 lances on the other. The lances were to be of equal length. The horses were to be separated by a barrier, no more than 5 feet in height. After this, the combat was to continue on foot in full armor. The foot combat was to begin with each side hurling spears or "throwing-swords."* Thereafter, the combat was to continue with polaxes, swords, and daggers. The combat would end when one of the combatants touched the ground with his hand, knee, or body, or when one of them surrendered. Neither party was to affix any spikes or other "evil device" to his armor, nor was either party to carry any magical charms designed to influence the outcome.
......
At this point, seeing the dire straits that Sir Jean was in, the Duke of Burgundy threw down his baton, ending the match. "
Jousting until one combatant has broken six spears.
Combat on foot:
Each combatant hurling a spear or sword.
Fighting to continue with polaxes, swords or daggers [the typical weapons selection of a dismounted knight].
Judging:
Fighting to continue until one combatant touched the ground with a hand, knee, or his body.
Fight was actually ended when the judge saw one combatant had gained a significant advantage and threw down his baton [a symbol of authority dating back to the Roman Empire].
Time Period:
1445
Locale:
Antwerp (Belgium)
Source:
An excellent essay "The Deeds of Jaques Lalaing" available from The HACA at:
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/Lalaing.htm
I highly recommend reading this article.
Excerpt:
"The rules of the combat were laid out in a document called the "chapters of arms." The conditions laid down by Sir Jean de Boniface were as follows: The combat was to begin on horseback, continuing until one of the combatants broke 6 lances on the other. The lances were to be of equal length. The horses were to be separated by a barrier, no more than 5 feet in height. After this, the combat was to continue on foot in full armor. The foot combat was to begin with each side hurling spears or "throwing-swords."* Thereafter, the combat was to continue with polaxes, swords, and daggers. The combat would end when one of the combatants touched the ground with his hand, knee, or body, or when one of them surrendered. Neither party was to affix any spikes or other "evil device" to his armor, nor was either party to carry any magical charms designed to influence the outcome.
......
At this point, seeing the dire straits that Sir Jean was in, the Duke of Burgundy threw down his baton, ending the match. "
Method:
Teams of six, mutual assistance allowed. Fighting on foot with spears, polaxes, swords, and daggers.
Judging:
Combat to continue until stopped by the judge [the King, in this case].
Time Period:
25 February, 1449.
Locale:
Stirling, Scotland
Source:
An excellent essay, "The Deeds of Jaques Lalaing" available from The HACA at:
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/Lalaing.htm
Excerpt:
"In 1449, Jacques de Lalaing traveled to Stirling, Scotland, to fight with members of the Douglas clan before the King of Scotland. This was to be a combat of six. On the side of Hainault were Jacques, his uncle Simon de Lalaing, and a squire from Brittany named Herve de Meriadec. On the Scottish side were James Douglas (brother of the Earl of Douglas), another James Douglas, and John Ross of Halket. The combat took place on 25 February 1449. A crowd of five or six thousand gathered to watch.
Under the agreed-upon terms, the combat was to take place on foot, armed with spear, polaxe, sword, and dagger. At the request of the Scots, the throwing of spears was forbidden. The combat was fought with sharp weapons, and was to continue until stopped by the king. Each combatant was allowed to help his companions. "
Teams of six, mutual assistance allowed. Fighting on foot with spears, polaxes, swords, and daggers.
Judging:
Combat to continue until stopped by the judge [the King, in this case].
Time Period:
25 February, 1449.
Locale:
Stirling, Scotland
Source:
An excellent essay, "The Deeds of Jaques Lalaing" available from The HACA at:
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/Lalaing.htm
Excerpt:
"In 1449, Jacques de Lalaing traveled to Stirling, Scotland, to fight with members of the Douglas clan before the King of Scotland. This was to be a combat of six. On the side of Hainault were Jacques, his uncle Simon de Lalaing, and a squire from Brittany named Herve de Meriadec. On the Scottish side were James Douglas (brother of the Earl of Douglas), another James Douglas, and John Ross of Halket. The combat took place on 25 February 1449. A crowd of five or six thousand gathered to watch.
Under the agreed-upon terms, the combat was to take place on foot, armed with spear, polaxe, sword, and dagger. At the request of the Scots, the throwing of spears was forbidden. The combat was fought with sharp weapons, and was to continue until stopped by the king. Each combatant was allowed to help his companions. "
Method:
Fight on foot in full armor with polaxe and sword.
Judging:
Combat to continue until one combatant is "carried to the ground".
Time Period:
1449
Locale:
Bruges, Flanders
Source:
An excellent essay, "The Deeds of Jaques Lalaing" available from The HACA at:
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/Lalaing.htm
Excerpt:
"The combat between Jacques de Lalaing and Thomas Que took place in Bruges, Flanders, in 1449. The Duke of Burgundy acted as the referee. According to the agreed-upon terms, the combat was to take place on foot, in full armor, armed with polaxe and sword. The combat was to continue until one of the combatants "was carried to the ground."
.....
Lightly armored and breathing easily because of his light helmet, Jacques sped to the attack. Striking numerous blows at the Englishman’s head, he quickly forced him backwards. Thomas was hard-pressed by this onslaught, and was unable to do anything but attempt to ward off the rain of blows. "But Dame Fortune, who gives to the one and takes from the other, turned that encounter against Jacques..." As he struck at the Englishman, Jacques had the ill-fortune to bring his left hand right down on the spike of his opponent’s polaxe. The point entered the underside of his gauntlet, "piercing entirely through and cutting the nerves and veins, for the spike on the Englishman’s axe was wondrously large and sharp."
Jacques attempted to continue the fight, but his left hand failed him. Holding the head of the polaxe under his left armpit, Jacques continued to fight, wielding the tail-spike with his right hand. Realizing the dire straits he was in, Jacques discarded his polaxe and closed to grapple with his opponent. Grabbing the Englishman’s helmet with one hand, and his left arm with the other, Jacques used a wrestling technique to throw Thomas Que. The English squire hit the ground with such force that the visor of his bascinet was buried in the earth. Seeing this, the duke threw down his baton, stopping the combat.
Later, Thomas Que argued that he had not been defeated, according to the agreed-upon conditions of the combat. Although he had been thrown, he claimed, his entire body had never touched the ground. True, his head, arms, and legs had all touched the earth - but he had used his arms to hold his torso off the ground. The Duke of Burgundy consulted with the other notables who had watched the combat - "Germans, Spaniards, Scots, Italians." The unanimous decision of this international jury was that Jacques had won the combat. Jacques, meanswhile, was in great pain from his injury. Luckily, the wound did not prove to be crippling, and Jacques was soon nursed back to health by the Duke of Burgundy’s physicians."
Note:
This combat is of particular interest to SCA participants because it details a combatant continuing to fight after losing the use of an appendage, in this case his hand.
Fight on foot in full armor with polaxe and sword.
Judging:
Combat to continue until one combatant is "carried to the ground".
Time Period:
1449
Locale:
Bruges, Flanders
Source:
An excellent essay, "The Deeds of Jaques Lalaing" available from The HACA at:
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/Lalaing.htm
Excerpt:
"The combat between Jacques de Lalaing and Thomas Que took place in Bruges, Flanders, in 1449. The Duke of Burgundy acted as the referee. According to the agreed-upon terms, the combat was to take place on foot, in full armor, armed with polaxe and sword. The combat was to continue until one of the combatants "was carried to the ground."
.....
Lightly armored and breathing easily because of his light helmet, Jacques sped to the attack. Striking numerous blows at the Englishman’s head, he quickly forced him backwards. Thomas was hard-pressed by this onslaught, and was unable to do anything but attempt to ward off the rain of blows. "But Dame Fortune, who gives to the one and takes from the other, turned that encounter against Jacques..." As he struck at the Englishman, Jacques had the ill-fortune to bring his left hand right down on the spike of his opponent’s polaxe. The point entered the underside of his gauntlet, "piercing entirely through and cutting the nerves and veins, for the spike on the Englishman’s axe was wondrously large and sharp."
Jacques attempted to continue the fight, but his left hand failed him. Holding the head of the polaxe under his left armpit, Jacques continued to fight, wielding the tail-spike with his right hand. Realizing the dire straits he was in, Jacques discarded his polaxe and closed to grapple with his opponent. Grabbing the Englishman’s helmet with one hand, and his left arm with the other, Jacques used a wrestling technique to throw Thomas Que. The English squire hit the ground with such force that the visor of his bascinet was buried in the earth. Seeing this, the duke threw down his baton, stopping the combat.
Later, Thomas Que argued that he had not been defeated, according to the agreed-upon conditions of the combat. Although he had been thrown, he claimed, his entire body had never touched the ground. True, his head, arms, and legs had all touched the earth - but he had used his arms to hold his torso off the ground. The Duke of Burgundy consulted with the other notables who had watched the combat - "Germans, Spaniards, Scots, Italians." The unanimous decision of this international jury was that Jacques had won the combat. Jacques, meanswhile, was in great pain from his injury. Luckily, the wound did not prove to be crippling, and Jacques was soon nursed back to health by the Duke of Burgundy’s physicians."
Note:
This combat is of particular interest to SCA participants because it details a combatant continuing to fight after losing the use of an appendage, in this case his hand.
Method:
Combat on foot with polaxes and/or
Combat on foot with swords and/or
Jousting on horseback with lances.
Judging:
Until a set number of blows (the number to be set by the challenger) had been struck or
Until the judge stopped the combat.
Time Period:
Circa 1450
Locale:
Northern Europe (sorry, I'll have to look it up).
Source:
An excellent essay, "The Deeds of Jaques Lalaing" available from The HACA at:
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/Lalaing.htm
Excerpt:
"On the same day as his combat with Thomas Que, Jacques de Lalaing announced his intention to accomplish a pas d’armes (passage of arms). In this type of encounter, the knight would usually issue a challenge at large, and take on all comers for a set period of time. In Jacques’ case, he announced his intention to raise a pavilion on the first day of each month for an entire year. Challengers who wished to fight him were invited to approach the pavilion and touch one of 3 shields that hung outside. The first, a white shield, represented a challenge to fight with polaxes. The second, a violet shield, represented a challenge to fight with swords. The third, a black shield, represented a challenge to joust on horseback with lances. Learning from his experience with the Englishman, Jacques stipulated that all of the weapons used in the combats would be identical. He would supply them, but his opponent would have first choice. The terms stated that the combat would continue until a set number of blows had been struck, or until the judge stopped the combat. The number of blows was to be specified by the party who accepted Jacques’ challenge."
[This message has been edited by jester (edited 04-16-2001).]
Combat on foot with polaxes and/or
Combat on foot with swords and/or
Jousting on horseback with lances.
Judging:
Until a set number of blows (the number to be set by the challenger) had been struck or
Until the judge stopped the combat.
Time Period:
Circa 1450
Locale:
Northern Europe (sorry, I'll have to look it up).
Source:
An excellent essay, "The Deeds of Jaques Lalaing" available from The HACA at:
http://www.thehaca.com/essays/Lalaing.htm
Excerpt:
"On the same day as his combat with Thomas Que, Jacques de Lalaing announced his intention to accomplish a pas d’armes (passage of arms). In this type of encounter, the knight would usually issue a challenge at large, and take on all comers for a set period of time. In Jacques’ case, he announced his intention to raise a pavilion on the first day of each month for an entire year. Challengers who wished to fight him were invited to approach the pavilion and touch one of 3 shields that hung outside. The first, a white shield, represented a challenge to fight with polaxes. The second, a violet shield, represented a challenge to fight with swords. The third, a black shield, represented a challenge to joust on horseback with lances. Learning from his experience with the Englishman, Jacques stipulated that all of the weapons used in the combats would be identical. He would supply them, but his opponent would have first choice. The terms stated that the combat would continue until a set number of blows had been struck, or until the judge stopped the combat. The number of blows was to be specified by the party who accepted Jacques’ challenge."
[This message has been edited by jester (edited 04-16-2001).]
-
IainMcClennan
- Archive Member
- Posts: 235
- Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Los Angeles, CA
Jester,
Check out "Petit Jehan de Saintre". It's a novel written in the 15th century with several foot combats. Though fiction, it's realistic in style, no exaggeration. The accounts of the combat have the same feel of Lalaing and Froissart. Check your library, if I have some time I might post exerpts.
Iain
Check out "Petit Jehan de Saintre". It's a novel written in the 15th century with several foot combats. Though fiction, it's realistic in style, no exaggeration. The accounts of the combat have the same feel of Lalaing and Froissart. Check your library, if I have some time I might post exerpts.
Iain