Grills, a gentlemens conversation :^P

Harold the Bear · Post by **Harold the Bear** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 9:22 am

Ok i will agree that Bargrills are period. I wont agree that helms like Spangens Suttun Hoos and other early type helms had them. So if you want to be period and wear a grill i suggest living in the late 15th century to the 16th century.

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"the teutons are comming the teutons are comming"
Vita et Viktoria!
Heil Rittertum,

Harold the Bear
Herzog von Sachsen

Adriano · Post by **Adriano** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 10:09 am

Are you trolling, Harold? I think we've covered this subject exhaustively.

Micah_Rose · Post by **Micah_Rose** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 11:50 am

Nobody will claim that an early period helm had a grille. But if you want to wear one for SCA combat, you've got to have one.

Besides, who would opt for an early period helm with a grille when it looks like you can have a pig-face grille instead?

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Long live the Prince and Princess of Cynagua!

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 2:13 pm

Good point Harold, I'm not crazy bout those bargrills either, They did use them some during the 15th and 16th centurys, but only for combat with clubs, which is what the SCA does I guess.In the late 16th cent they were used on 3/4 harnesses to some extent also.Even then they were far from common.They werent really common until the 17th century for use with Lobstertails.There interestingly enough is one reference for a bar grill on a 14th century Bascinet...Otto

David deKunstenaar · Post by **David deKunstenaar** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 5:27 pm

OK, so I 'm new and old here. (I use to read it when it first started, but my employer made me stop.... bad employer, no sences of priorities.)

Could someone point me in the directions to read the past discussions? I have an opinion on grills, but I would like to read everyone elses with out making them re-write them.

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Sir David deKunstenaar
Midrealm, House Erine Torr

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 5:44 pm

I've never even tried to claim that bargrills are pariod, just that to use the helmet I want, I have to have one for SCA/Markland fighting. I'm not willing to restrict myself only to those helmets that were closed face; for my period, there is no indication that such helmets were ever used by Legionaries in combat. I'm not trying to recreate what a Roman would do if confronted with our game; I'm trying to recreate a Roman Legionary, with additional pieces added to comply with the armor standards, in as unobtrusive a manner as I can. A bargrill over my face is one of those compromises.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Gaston · Post by **Gaston** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 6:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by David deKunstenaar:

Could someone point me in the directions to read the past discussions? I have an opinion on grills, but I would like to read everyone elses with out making them re-write them.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sir David, you might click the Search button and look that way. You'll have to walk through each of the fora one by one, but this one is the most likely, followed by Armour Technique.

James Schardt · Post by **James Schardt** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 6:12 pm

Bargrills were not restricted to use with tournament fighting. There are many examples of Burgonets with bargrills for standard military uses in the 1500's. I wish I had examples I could post, but they were all in a friends very exstensive (expensive!

) library and he is now in Arizona. However, most of these were armouries in Austria

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It's all fun and games until somebody burns a village.

Osmod · Post by **Osmod** » Sat Apr 07, 2001 6:37 pm

iirc, the commen view on bargrills was.

1. some where period,but the standard SCA grill might not have been.
2. The standard SCA grill makes a work of art look like a football helmet,but can't be avoided for safety reasons(yet another point for those who say the SCA has a clear early period bias on the field,which it does,imho)

I also recall that points where made, for most of the time period covered by the sca,a helm could be constructed without much in the way of visable barwork(iirc). But its been a while.

Osmod

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Tue Apr 10, 2001 1:41 pm

Sir David, I got a kick out of your chapel plate picture on the Midrealm's website!

http://www.midrealm.org/chiv/knight.phtml?backpage=listing.phtml&input=27&scaname=David+deKunstenaar

for anyone who wants to see it.

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Wed Apr 11, 2001 9:45 am

Regarding the SCA's "bias" towards early period[armor], it is helpful to recall that, at the beginning, almost no one had armor that was actually as good as the "assumed armor" (this was the day of carpet knights), as opposed to today, when many have far better. Back then, a fighter in full plate would have been seen as finessing the rules for advantage of better protection, instead of speed.

Agreed, most periods had helms that can be reconstructed with minimal or no bargrill, but most also have helms that must have a bargrill to be usable under SCA rules. We should be restricted to just those helmets that don't need them. As has been stated, even the "assumed armor" would need an added bargrill or faceplate (neither authentic)to be list legal.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Wed Apr 11, 2001 11:22 am

Owen wrote-"We should be restricted to just those helmets that don't need them. "
So, unless I'm missing something, you want EVERYONE to be in a slot faced helm, regardless if it fits their personna or not?
No more bar grills?
The people with Viking personna's will just love THAT.
How about the combat archers?
Etc. etc. etc.

Maybe YOU should join a group that fits YOUR wants and needs, instead of making everyone ELSE conform to yours.
Maybe a tournament company, or a European re-enactment group.

There are live steel groups out there as well.
You see, NO ONE is FORCING you to play in the SCA, you have other options.

VvS

The Lost Scott · Post by **The Lost Scott** » Wed Apr 11, 2001 12:12 pm

Go over to the armour construction board and look at the helm by White Mountain Armoury that is a good way to deal with the bar grill or at wombats or lonely mountain forge's helms early perion helms little or no bargrill not quit period but much better looking, also check out Melichor bar work.
I hate to do this but Ice Falcon has nice helms and ruins them by sticking ugly bar grills over them instead of incorperating them in to the design, that is my problem with bar grill.
LS

David deKunstenaar · Post by **David deKunstenaar** » Wed Apr 11, 2001 12:18 pm

posted 04-10-2001 01:41 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morgan writes: Sir David, I got a kick out of your chapel plate picture on the Midrealm's website!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Hay, I just don't know how to draw hocky gloves and tennis shoes. After all, I am a midrealm Knight.

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Sir David deKunstenaar
Midrealm, House Erine Torr

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Wed Apr 11, 2001 1:16 pm

I agree, a bar grill can either make or break a helm.
You can have a really swell hat, but rush the bar grill.....
Ick.
Personally, I use stainless square stock.
I can make everything "flow" into it's self by using a rotary grinder and metal cutting bit.
It's really hard to get that effect with round stock, no facets, etc.
I like to use piercework/edge work on the attachment tabs as well.
A little time with a jewelers saw goes a LONG way.
Little touches like that really make a HUGE difference in how a helm looks when finished.
VvS

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Wed Apr 11, 2001 4:51 pm

Harold --
Bad show for starting people up with no reason!!!
We've done this to death already!

Micah_Rose
Nobody will claim that an early period helm had a grille. But if you want to wear one for SCA combat, you've got to have one.

No Micah, if you look hard enough, you are likely to find a helm in most any period that at the very least can minimise the need for any sort of suplementary protection.
If there's a particular period you're interested in, anti-bargrill activists like myself can probably help you out.

David deKunstenaar -
I think the most extensive dispute was between Owen and Myself using an SCA Roman Legionary as example. I think it was on the Armour Construction Board.

Vermin -
Reread Owen's posts. He is a rabid defender of SCA bargrills for all.
I am the rabbid anti-Bargril guy.
What he was trying to do was encapsulate my arguments and argue against them before I even brought them up.

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Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Wed Apr 11, 2001 9:43 pm

Ahhhhh......
I see.
Sort of.
<grin>
VvS

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Thu Apr 12, 2001 8:59 am

Vermin- I missed a question mark. "We should be restricted to just those helmets
that don't need them?" is how it should have read. If you've read my posts, you'll know I fight in a bargrilled helmet, and don't think they should be banned. Hell, if you'd read the rest of THAT post, you should have gotten that.

Oh, and I'm not rabid. That foam is beer.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:03 am

Norman- and what's wrong with a preemptive strike?

Let's just take Vermin's comments as if directed at you, and, ... action!

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:06 am

Hmmmmmm.
Now that you have said that....it makes alot more sense.
Without the question mark, it was rather uncertain which way you were going.
(Even after re-reading it....)
But, I'm on your side.
"Sorry, didn't see the tape....."
(grin)
VvS

jagatei · Post by **jagatei** » Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:44 am

I have to agree with the other two on here. There are just some cases where a closed face helm is not very appropriate. The anthromorphic face plate could be an option for my persona for instance but it would be a very far stretch, so much so as no primary source documents one used. In this case the only option is to pick the lesser of the two evils. A completely inapropriate faceplate or a completely inappropriate bar grill. The choice for me was simply money. I can pay 300-400 for a perfectly documentable helmet that has an inapropriate bargrill or 1900-2500 for perfectly documentable helmet that has an inapropriate face plate that will hold up to combat.

[This message has been edited by Jagatei (edited 04-12-2001).]

Osmod · Post by **Osmod** » Thu Apr 12, 2001 6:19 pm

The entire authentic helm vs helm that's not list legal(aka great helm vs spagenhelm) is a mute point.

The final question is,would a total mundane that's seen a dozen or so films,ect,ect consider a standard bargrill to look odd,or worse?

Take a period looking spagen,make it list legal for all but the faceplate.

Put a grill on it and you now have a fansy piece of modern sports gear.

Put a plain piece of metel on it(aka like a greathelm faceplate),and you've got a helm that will pass the "movie-goeing mundane's" idea of what armour should look like.

Imho,at least

Osmod

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Thu Apr 12, 2001 6:25 pm

Osmod- by that logic, a completely fantasy helmet, with horns and everything, would be better than a completely accurate piece with a bargrill added for safety.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

The Lost Scott · Post by **The Lost Scott** » Thu Apr 12, 2001 6:27 pm

Jagatei 300 to 400 will get you a nice ocular helm, or faced helm check out the Wombats site. Look at Janos's post and White Mountains it doesn't take much money to make an avantail (it does take time) and that can work very well to hide a bar grill and you still keep some ventalation and vision.
LS

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Fri Apr 13, 2001 12:22 am

Owen -
No - I'm not going to bother -- let them find our original discussion if they are curious.
and I believe Vermin knows my position and arguments from my conversation with him regarding different option for putting together an SCA Landsknecht kit.

Jagatei -
What's your personna ??
Guessing some type of Mongol -
There is more and more evidence for quite wide use of anthropomorphic masks by the Mongols.
There is absolutely No evidence whatsoever for use of a SCA-style Bargril.
-- and your price estimate is waay to high.
I'd make one far far cheaper - though you'd have to wait forever for it.

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Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

jagatei · Post by **jagatei** » Fri Apr 13, 2001 8:15 am

The Lost Scott and Norman - I am a mongol on campaign in europe in 1241. so the occulars and aventail isead is not acceptable. There is a lot of good descriptions of the armour of the mongols on this campaign from the monks that traveled with them and the soldiers that fought against them. Carpini gives some great descriptions of the armour he saw while traveling with them and he didn't see one single face plate used. They were used in other areas and in later periods but for my specific area and time, an anthromorphic face plate would be inappropriate. All of the helms described were of the open face type but since the marshals won't let me do that no matter how much documentation I show them

I will have to use a bargrill to comply with SCA safety standards

The Lost Scott · Post by **The Lost Scott** » Fri Apr 13, 2001 8:30 am

Just avoid the football grill get who ever makes your helm to incorperate the grill in to the helm not just slap it on top of the helm.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Fri Apr 13, 2001 8:52 am

I'm as perhaps not as much an authenticity nut as some. I'd rather see a spangen with a good bar grill like WMA. I like the wild face plate ones, but I don't want to see a billion of them for some reason. I don't think there's anything wrong at all with a good grill on a historically open faced helm. I HATE seeing someone cut a big circle in the middle of a great helm so they can put a bar grill on it. Makes you look like you're from Monty Python.

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Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
http://www.geocities.com/morgunnmac

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Fri Apr 13, 2001 9:03 am

Well, Norman...
I'm sure you'll be happy to hear I'm actually going to WEAR and fight in my overweight "period" Landsknecht munitions harness this weekend. (grin)
Still haven't worked the elbow problems out to the point where I feel safe,so I'll still be using the hidden lacross elbow armor but I'm working on it.
I think if I have to, and it WILL mean a good deal of replacing over the year, I'm going to go with 20g stainless gutter rere/vambraces with a 16g cop.....
There's someone moving to my shire with a mig welder, sooo...the fun begins soon.
VvS

jagatei · Post by **jagatei** » Fri Apr 13, 2001 9:51 am

Morgan - That bugs me to no end as well. I hate seeing a perfectly good closed faced helm turned into a monty python monstosity like that.

Bojei Temur · Post by **Bojei Temur** » Fri Apr 13, 2001 4:34 pm

Hi Norman --- what Jagatei said

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Guessing some type of Mongol -
There is more and more evidence for quite wide use of anthropomorphic masks by the Mongols.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The earliest I can remember is from the 1400's (given that most of my sources are off with a friend right now.) Do you have anything earlier? Say, 1250ish? (Please)

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>There is absolutely No evidence whatsoever for use of a SCA-style Bargril.
-- and your price estimate is waay to high.
I'd make one far far cheaper - though you'd have to wait forever for it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. And they also have to be custom fit which can only happen if you happen to live near the armourer

[/B][/QUOTE]

Osmod · Post by **Osmod** » Fri Apr 13, 2001 6:21 pm

Owen- I agree,by that logic,yes. But if a person doen't aspire to a kit that will easly pass the "mundanes at demos" test,then what do they aspire to? I would like to think that the most fanasy inspired of helms,closed face of course would pass this test most easlly,baring of course the ineveitable "what kind of helm is that?" question

In my mind the "mutant spagen",like the one in the fighters handboke(iirc),looks more the part of a warrior than the average bargrill helm. Along those lines I'm almost willing to bet a closed-face spuntop would be 100% less noticable than a average bargrill helm(spangan,basinet,ect).

As for the great/barrel helms with bargrills,yep their a bit uglier than a average openface with grill. But whats wrong with them? Such faceplates are no less non-period/"asteticly pleasing" than the average bargrill open-face. Why? because neither "looks" the part.

To say a bargrill is a needed device,over something that is even "qusi-period"(such as a soild faceplate on a spagen,ect,ect) clearly shows how competive ablity and outward apperance rank in repect to each other..

Osmod(who fights bargrill and closed face,and is trying hard to get used to 1/4" eyeslots on his pig-face)

Otto von Teich · Post by **Otto von Teich** » Fri Apr 13, 2001 7:11 pm

Ahh sooo...Now I know where Monty Python got the Idea for those helms, he must have gone to a SCA event....hee hee....Otto

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Fri Apr 13, 2001 10:31 pm

I was going to argue for bargrills in some cases. However, seeing that you have managed to convert Owen to the no bargrills side, I will herebye vote for no more bargrills.

Joke. You will never convert Owen. Romans will defend to the death their right to be stubborn. Especially when their point is somewhat valid. The only thing more stubborn is a Roman who has been drinking. Owen is an excellent brewer.

randy · Post by **randy** » Sat Apr 14, 2001 12:45 am

there are plenty of period examples out there that had a grill of sorts, and we are recreating tournys( i am assuming sca cuz almost noone else comes here) and as such there are several extant museum pieces, A BASINETTE WITH A GRILL WAS NOT IN PERIOD TILL THE ADVENT OF NFL. now that said i think they look silly and they clash with the rest of my armour so i wouldnt be cought dead in one, fashion police would have me written up you know!