The Armour Archive

I have tried to find rules stating whether or not a person may fight in the sca with a shield and 6' spear. I know that the 9 footers are way to long, but so many historical battles where fought with short spears and shields, that there has to be someway to do it. Can anybody help?

Yes, you can.

The only hitch is that if you grip the spear with both hands, the sheild becomes "armour" and is subject to all blows that would be recognized as "good".

As long as you grasp the spear in one hand and the shield in the other you are good to go.

you certainly can, with the restriction irish noted above.

whether or not it's a tactically sound idea given the rules and equipment of sca combat really is more of an open question

I have always wanted to fight spear and shield as well but haven't because of the lack of control.

Would it be possible to have a, say, small round shield, with a flat, thin handle making one able to grip the spear haft and handle at the same time? Would that be legal? The shield would still be controlled with the hand...

Not quite the question, but tangentially related.

I've been fighting sword and one handed spear for a few months now and it seems to be working tolerably well.

Swete, yes you can use a small shield/buckler but see II's response above. As long as you use both hands on the spear it becomes armour. Nothing saying you can't grab and release the spear as much as want. Just if you get hit there while both hands are on the spear it is not a shield at that time.

Do not concur. As long as you are gripping the shield and controlling it with the hand, it's a shield.

If it's just strapped to the forearm, or slung from a guige and not grasped... then it's a passive shield, and considered armour.

As long as a shield is controlled by the hand, you could use both the shield and grip the spear with both hands. Making a grip for the shield that allows you to control it effectively and wield a spear two handed is something different.

I have played with a center grip round and a six foot spear before. I never bothered to use the spear two handed with the shield. I would often drop the shield when it got in the way. It was fun fighting poles and other two handed weapons, but I didn't have much fun fighting shield men. Weighting the spear to have a balance point about four feet behind the pointy bit helps a lot and so does having a butt spike.

Gavin

ok, what about this. Can shots be thrown using the shield as a guide. Shield held in front of you and the rim of the shield acts as a stabilizer. Ive been toying around against the pell, and have developed some very controllable shots, but havent used them against an opponent yet.
Or can the shield have a recess for the spear to slide through, like a u shaped cut in the corner of the shield? No sure if there are any period examples of this. I just think that it would be interesting to fight with a spear and shield in small melees and such.

SCA Marshall Handbook wrote:IV. THE USE OF WEAPONS AND SHIELDS
...
E. Shields must be controlled by the hand; use of passive shields (not controlled by the hand) will be treated as decorative armor and subject to effective blow acknowledgment.

Seems as there is contention about what "controlled by the hand" means. Does it mean a hand holding the shield is considered controlling even if holding something else as well, or does it mean that the hand must be exclusively holding the shield.

Since it doesn't specifically say the hand may only be holding the shield, it seems like initial interpretation would be the first assumption. I'm not a marshall though, take it for what it's worth.

-Ramius/Elias

somomailler wrote:ok, what about this. Can shots be thrown using the shield as a guide. Shield held in front of you and the rim of the shield acts as a stabilizer. Ive been toying around against the pell, and have developed some very controllable shots, but havent used them against an opponent yet.

I don't see a reason why not, I've seen spearmen using other people's shields as a stabilizer before.

it's been done, and it's been done successfully. Duke Prothal (sp?) won the Laurel's Prize tourney at Estrella this way at least once.

I was always under the "it's armour" impression, but after re-reading that passage, I'm not so sure.

There were 2 guys at Bordermarch who fought sword & shield and were very good. Neither used the shield to guide the spear or has a strap handle.

Both spears has butt spikes that they used when you closed on them. One thing that BOTH of these guys had over the average Scadian is that they were both in excellent shape.

That seems to be important with this style.

Uric

I do spear and shield fairly often.
Though my favorite form is spear and sword.
Both forms do require a lot of movement
and agility.
Think of the fight between Hector and Achilles
in the movie "Troy".

The biggest problem with one handed spear
is that in the SCA, a spear does not act like a
real spear.
The point does not grab and punch through
a shield or mail the way a real spear would.

It is a good form to try though,
as most of us, especially in the earlier periods
would be using this form.

-Graedwyn

somomailler wrote:ok, what about this. Can shots be thrown using the shield as a guide. Shield held in front of you and the rim of the shield acts as a stabilizer. Ive been toying around against the pell, and have developed some very controllable shots, but havent used them against an opponent yet.
Or can the shield have a recess for the spear to slide through, like a u shaped cut in the corner of the shield? No sure if there are any period examples of this. I just think that it would be interesting to fight with a spear and shield in small melees and such.

Yes you can and Yes you can.

Morgan wrote:I was always under the "it's armour" impression, but after re-reading that passage, I'm not so sure.

The way I have understood it was that if you are grasping the spear with the same hand you are holding the shield, then you are CONTROLLING the spear and only HOLDING the shield. Making the shield passive armour at that point.

Spear and shield is a ton of fun in singles.

VERY tough in melees.

Of course, with thrust and throw javelins there is a whole nother level....

well thanks for all the help. Think I might have to make me a new shield, for spear and shield fighting.

somomailler wrote:well thanks for all the help. Think I might have to make me a new shield, for spear and shield fighting.

Great! I hope you enjoy yourself.

Just one teensy little request. If you decide to fight this style in a large melee, pls. be aware of how you're holding the spear.

Say for instance your unit gets hit in the front while another enemy unit is coming up on your flank. If you happen to become disengaged from your unit and are holding your spear above your shoulder and somewhat over your head (kind of like a javelin thrower), you look like your declaring yourself dead. When that happens, the flanking spearman is going to give you a really dirty look when you face thrust him.

In singles, it can be a lot of fun. In melee, thrust and throw is better than just thrust, and it CAN work as part of a team, and an intermediate threat weapon.

For a longer (like 6') spear one handed, you need a counterweight. Or really strong forearms and wrists.


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well maille working has beefed up the wrists. And I would love to make some thrust and throws but cant figure out how

Here is the west kingdom standard. Never built one but it looks like it would work fine. Your kingdom may vary.

http://www.westkingdom.org/files/westki ... _29_08.pdf

Cheers!

somomailler wrote:well maille working has beefed up the wrists.

I use a different technique for strengthening my wrists...

hm maybe thats why maille work is so easy

InsaneIrish wrote:The way I have understood it was that if you are grasping the spear with the same hand you are holding the shield, then you are CONTROLLING the spear and only HOLDING the shield. Making the shield passive armour at that point.

I'd say you are controlling both. Let's look at the idea behind the rule. It was done, so I was told, to keep rules weenies from festooning their bodies with "invulnerable" shields.

InsaneIrish wrote:

Morgan wrote:I was always under the "it's armour" impression, but after re-reading that passage, I'm not so sure.

The way I have understood it was that if you are grasping the spear with the same hand you are holding the shield, then you are CONTROLLING the spear and only HOLDING the shield. Making the shield passive armour at that point.

There was a brief "fad" for hand and a half sword, and heater shield (with guige) about twenty or so years ago, Typicly the arm straps on the sield were set, but the hand was free.
Lots of fun, damn effective, and slapped down by the marshallate

I'm thinking you can strap a shield so that you can control it with the hand and still hold a spear with both hands, but it seems to me the shield would be in a position to do much good.

I might be wrong though.


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olaf haraldson wrote:Do not concur. As long as you are gripping the shield and controlling it with the hand, it's a shield.

If it's just strapped to the forearm, or slung from a guige and not grasped... then it's a passive shield, and considered armour.

+1
That is the way the rule is interpreted here in Trimaris and at Gulf Wars. I'm pretty sure at Pennsic as well.

It doesn't make much sense to me the other way with the shield becoming armour then shield again as you grasp the spear and let go.

This has been done effectively both in melee and even in tournament. There was an Ansteoran squire who was quite effective with short spear and shield at Gulf Wars last couple years and our own Count Yoan has fought this style in crown list and went pretty far.

It can be done, but expect to sweat a lot as it's not a passive style.

G

Diglach mac Cein wrote:I'm thinking you can strap a shield so that you can control it with the hand and still hold a spear with both hands, but it seems to me the shield would be in a position to do much good.

I might be wrong though.


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Yep, that's wery effective, and illegal (at least here in Drachenwald).
We interpret the rules the same way as Olof Haraldsson states.

Were considered to be wearing a set standard, added to that standard is what you hold in your hands. The rest is ornaments.

I did not make myself clear then. I stated the if it's held in the hand, then it's still a shield... even if you have something else in the hand.

Arngrim wrote:

Diglach mac Cein wrote:I'm thinking you can strap a shield so that you can control it with the hand and still hold a spear with both hands, but it seems to me the shield would be in a position to do much good.

I might be wrong though.


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Yep, that's wery effective, and illegal (at least here in Drachenwald).
We interpret the rules the same way as Olof Haraldsson states.

Were considered to be wearing a set standard, added to that standard is what you hold in your hands. The rest is ornaments.

olaf haraldson wrote:I did not make myself clear then. I stated the if it's held in the hand, then it's still a shield... even if you have something else in the hand.

Arngrim wrote:

Diglach mac Cein wrote:I'm thinking you can strap a shield so that you can control it with the hand and still hold a spear with both hands, but it seems to me the shield would be in a position to do much good.

I might be wrong though.


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Yep, that's wery effective, and illegal (at least here in Drachenwald).
We interpret the rules the same way as Olof Haraldsson states.

Were considered to be wearing a set standard, added to that standard is what you hold in your hands. The rest is ornaments.

Um.. I think you made it perfectly clear.
If you strap it on it's a shield, unless you hold a weapon in your hand, thereby not controlling the shield with the hand.

If this was not your meaning then I did misunderstand.

Olaf -

That's what I gathered from your post.

About the only way I can see this working 2-handed is with a strapped round - even then, the shield won't be oriented in a way to do you any good.

I occasionally used a thrust and throw as the single hand spear, and carry a second one in my shield hand (centergrip). Really doesn't offer a ton of defense (a hit tends to knock it out of the way).

Hope to do it some more when my knees and the like heal up.
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I think people are still confusing what Olaf (and Gaston) are saying...

Rule IV E states:
Shields must be controlled by the hand;use of passive shields (not controlled by the hand) will be treated as decorative armour and subject to effective blow acknowledgement.

What (I think) Olaf and Gaston have said is that one MAY use a weapon in their shield hand, as long as that hand simultaneously controls the shield.

Picture holding a shield in your hand with a leather strap for a handle. If the hand that is holding that leather handle is also able to grasp a spear to help control it, they may do so and still retain the benefits of the shield as a shield.

At least, that is how I understand the rule and what Olaf stated.

That's what he's saying (pretty sure, anyway!).

Locally, there used to be a fighter (moved west now) who fought spear and shield using a sling for the shield. The sling looped around from lower left across his back and over his right shoulder, hooking to the shield. In addition, he had a hand grip on the right side of the shield. The location of the grip enabled him to control the shield with the left hand while at the same time using the left hand to guide the front of the spear.

Master Tearlach and his students in polearm use often have a small buckler strapped to one hand. The strap doesn't interfere with their use of the pole arm, but can be helpful for blocks (I've seen Master Tearlach block arrows with the thing...)

A couple of years ago I tried a max length one handed sword with a bastard sword style grip, along with a small heater. The strapping arrangement on the heater let me use the left hand as a second hand on the sword at will, enabling me to rapidly switch back and forth between a 2H or 1H grip on the weapon. Versatile, and VERY useful in our heavy polearm environment or vs CA, although I've drifted away from this style toward more period combat forms. I've fiddled with using the same shield and a short spear, but MAN is that a tough form to master! =)

Using a shield with a 2H weapon is common enough up here that I don't recall ever seeing it challenged. Your milage may vary in other areas.

Yep, that's what i was trying to say. When I was using a strapped shield, I often kept a second weapon in my shield hand, and I knew several fighters... Master Tearlach, Sir Karl, Master Rhioblin... who used a small shield in their left hand.