neck protection

[Heath B fraychef]

i have never really liked wearing a gorget in combat and have only ever needed one one many years ago with a different helm.
at one of the last events i attended i was instructed that a gorget was required even though i have a chain camail which was specificly added so i would not need the gorget.
the helm i have now sits about and inch and a half above my shoulders and is then covered by the chain.
i was told it did not matter and that the combat handbook specified that a gorget was required at all times.
well i checked the combat handbook and it states


"D. Neck Armor: The neck, including the larynx, cervical vertebrae, and first thoracic vertebra must be covered by one or a combination of the following and must stay covered during typical combat situations, including turning the head, lifting the chin, etc.:
1. The helm,
2. A gorget of rigid material.
3. A mail or heavy leather camail or aventail that hangs or drapes to absorb the force of a blow. If the camail or aventail lays in contact with the larynx, cervical vertebrae, or first thoracic vertebra, that section must be padded with a minimum of .25in (6mm) of close cell foam or equivalent.
4. A collar of heavy leather lined with a minimum of .25in (6mm) of close cell foam or equivalent."

so should i always carry a copy with me whenever i armor up?
i was also looking for the finger gauntlett requirements because it seems to me most people think they cannot be legal without grounding on the weapon.
but nowhere in the handbook does it say this.

[InsaneIrish]

1. carry a copy of the pertinant passages with you.
2. email your KEM, asking him to clarify the passages. Then print off his response and carry that to.

It sucks, but, sometimes it is needed.

[Heath B fraychef]

maybe ill sew a large pocket into my tassets

[zippy]

the rules i believe also state the marshal can bounce anything they deem unsafe
so even if you bring the passage stated, it doesnt matter

also caid has marshals who dont fight that have the final authority at an event
sorry dude
zip

[lochinvar76]

maybe ill sew a large pocket into my tassets

Too bad you're not later period... for the humor you could sew a pouch into your codpiece to carry it. You'd have proof and also demonstrate exactly how you feel about having to carry said proof around

[Baron Alcyoneus]

the rules i believe also state the marshal can bounce anything they deem unsafe
so even if you bring the passage stated, it doesnt matter

sorry dude
zip

You can also appeal it up the food chain.

[Cian of Storvik]

I was told the same thing last year at the local fighter practice, that the key words being "absorbs the force of a blow". Evidently someone had a spear shot or some other weapon bounce off of someone's larynx when they had only a camail and everyone went into panic mode. I added a padded lining to the camail, and I still was the object of a Marshal review.They told me they would feel much better if I had even a dog collar gorget beneath in addition to the camail and padding. But the final resolution was "If YOU feel safe wearing it, then you can fight".

Atlantia has no alterations to the SCA armor standards. And I think Duke Logan wears unpadded camail and no gorget. But you'd have to ask him to confirm.

I understand the marshal's desire for safety, but it's an imperfect system when they want one guy to wear a dog collar gorget, a camail and padding and another guy can wear just the dog collar and it's all good. (And I feel that dog collars are probably less effective themselves then just a chainmail drape, which is really screwy!) I can understand if the dog collar adds lames to the cervical vertibrae, but my gambeson has padded hardened leather plates there).
-Cian

[zippy]

You can also appeal it up the food chain.

that doesnt do you any good for immediate satisfaction
only a finite number of marshals at the event
and everyone is always concerned about liability
so if one person mentions that everyone will get on that bandwagon
not enough personal responsability
safety is important, but to many of the concerns are about
accountability and liability not safety
what we do is not safe, by definition
we are hitting people with sticks

have fun
zip

[Dietrich von Stroheim]

I'm with you there, Heath. I could never get a gorget that fit properly, was comfortable, etc. So I had a helm custom-made with a built-in bevor so I wouldn't have to.

In early 2008 I had a marshal bounce the helm and insist that I needed a gorget underneath my 14 ga stainless bevor

Haven't had that since, but now I bring an 'Overzealous Marshal Kit' in my bag just in case...it has a copy of the applicable rules, and as a last resort, a gorget.

The way I see it, I go to events to scrap with other fighters, not with marshals. So if they say don't use it, I work around. Hasn't happened in a long time though.

[Owyn]

Yeah, I've heard it recommended many times to carry a copy of the rules. Although in my experience most marshals are very well trained and know the rules, every once in a while you get someone who is *dead sure* that the rules say something that they really don't - like requiring a gorget. Sometimes, polite education of the marshal in question is enough to dislodge the misapprehension. Sometimes it's not, and unless you feel like appealing to someone higher up at that event, you're probably out of luck.

That said, marshals are *not* allowed to make up rules on the fly. They are allowed to not pass something which does not meet safety standards, but they still need a reason. If someone is requiring standards above the Kingdom rules, then they need to be (politely) reported to the Kingdom Earl Marshal so that they can be corrected and re-educated.

(as an aside, there's no way I'd fight with just an aventail - no way - just too many chances for the thing to lay against my skin directly if I tilt the wrong way before getting hit)

[Blackoak]

I don't wear a gorget. I have a wax hardened leather piece with foam backing sewn to the back of my aventail that protects my cervical spine.



My front bars come very close to my chest and my aventail comes almost to my nipples.



Keep a copy of the rules in your armour box, or that particular page in a pouch and correct them. Use the chivalry if needed. I know I use the minimum and take a risk, but that is MY choice according to the rules.

Uric

[deflagratio]

Couple of years ago I had a problem at Gulf Wars where the Marshal bounced my Aventail plus thick leather dog collar gorget. When I protested that the gorget was padding as it covered all the points outlined in Kingdom Guidelines she had a look in her eyes that said, "There has been a rule interpretation change and lots of people have complained to me over the past couple of days". She put up with me and handed me a chunk of blue foam and duct tape and told me to tape it to the gorget.

[Blackoak]

Again, care a copy of the rule in your pouch. Or tape the foam on and get inspected then take it out.

On my old helm, I had a marshal stick his hand up under my leather drape and squeeze the foam on my leather gorget and say "that's not 1/4" foam". So I had to stick some blue foam & duct tape to get inspected. Shit happens.

Uric

[Benedek]

I think that if you are patient and willing to maybe sit out a practice or two sometimes that eventually we will get to the point where people realize that just because you wear a gorget it still doesn't mean your safe.


I've run across a few local people who just didn't get it at all. I had a pair of Christian Fletcher gaunts that ground out on both sides if the rattan get bounced. The marshal offered to let me use his pair, a generous gesture to be sure. About half way through my bastard sword fight the CHIGAO SCREWS he had his aluminum gauntlets put together with popped and I fought for nearly a minute with no protection over my right hand in a friggin bastard sword fight. He just didn't get it.


On another silly note, one of the local fighters wife made it a point to ask Josh W if he was wearing his kidney belt under his plate cuirass.




She really didn't get it. DOH.

[Baron Alcyoneus]

You can also appeal it up the food chain.

that doesnt do you any good for immediate satisfaction
only a finite number of marshals at the event
and everyone is always concerned about liability
so if one person mentions that everyone will get on that bandwagon
not enough personal responsability
safety is important, but to many of the concerns are about
accountability and liability not safety
what we do is not safe, by definition
we are hitting people with sticks

have fun
zip

If the KEM says it is good enough, then it is good enough. If the King says it is good enough, the KEM would probably agree.

[CiaranBlackrune]

Heath, I would find out who that marshal was, verify with the KEM that your neck protection is indeed adquate, then find the marshals boss (usually the territorial marshal) and explain that his marshals need more training.

Things like this (inadequatly trained marshals) need to stop. And the only way it is going to stop is if we bring them to the attention of the senior marshals, train current marshals, and we the fighters actively marshal more events. I have also run into this issue and it can be very frustrating especially when you can't find a senior marshall or the King to set the marshal straight.

IMO every fighter should have a copy of the fighter handbook with them or in the car, but shouldn't need it because (Also IMO) every marshal at the event should have one handy already.

One question: Was the marshal a fighter, or a non-fighting marshal?

also caid has marshals who dont fight that have the final authority at an event
zip

I'd love to see this end.

[InsaneIrish]

that doesnt do you any good for immediate satisfaction
only a finite number of marshals at the event
and everyone is always concerned about liability
so if one person mentions that everyone will get on that bandwagon

Your marshals must be VERY different than ours then. If a marshal bounces something then that person can appeal to the Marshal in Charge, then the Kingdom Early Marshal, and finally the Crown. If the KEM or Crown are not present then the final say is the MIC.

But, if you are holding official paperwork stating contrary to the opinion of the marshal, it is MUCH harder for them to say no. That is also why I said contact the KEM and print out their clarification of the rule. That way you have written proof that the KEM thinks it is fine.

[Duke Patrick O'Malley]

[b]“that hangs or drapes to absorb the force of a blowâ€

[blackbow]

Uric: You might have better luck convincing them you were safe if you weren't carrying metal in your right hand.

I don't wear a gorget. I have a wax hardened leather piece with foam backing sewn to the back of my aventail that protects my cervical spine.
Keep a copy of the rules in your armour box, or that particular page in a pouch and correct them. Use the chivalry if needed. I know I use the minimum and take a risk, but that is MY choice according to the rules.

Uric

[Glaukos the Athenian]

I hate gorgets.

I wear them because they are required. But then this past Pennsic mine became loose (or I did not re-attach it tightly after a break) and I got a nice solid thrust to my unprotected larnyx under my Corinthian (picture the trajectory of THAT shot) . I was lucky that spears and swords have mandatory padding. Still I had a bit of a worry for a few seconds, and a sore throat for a few hours.

A well made, properly worn gorget (a plug for Michael of Buslingthorpe's leather gorgets!) is a great idea.

I hate gorgets and I'll continue wearing one every time I fight.

Just my 2 drachmas

Glaukos the Athenian

[Kilian_the_warlike]

...also caid has marshals who dont fight that have the final authority at an event...

Really? This might just be my thug-fighter brain malfunctioning here, but thats like have a vegitarian cook your steak.

[losthelm]

Some of the avintails are to short or light to effectlvly absorb/distribute much force.
I like being lower on the chain of comand If something is borderline I can always let someone higher up make the call.

Each year at Pennsic I bounce at least a dozen people for gorgets.
Almost always its because they are back at camp. Last year three where unsafe covering very little or improperly made.
One was 4 oz veg tan soaking wet about as stiff as a noodle.

Personaly I have had both good and bad gorgets as well as shots that would have been very bad without being picked up and moved.

The difference between good and bad always comes down to fit and material.

as for gauntlets
"F.
2. A gauntlet of rigid material, either lined with ¼ inch (6mm) of closed-cell foam or equivalent or designed to transfer potentially injurious impact to the surfaces being grasped."

So finger gaunts need the 1/4 padding or transfer impact by grounding to the weapon.
If your learning or hand block at all I would sugest suplamental finger bucklers.
I would also incurage finger bucklers if you use hockey gloves.
Missing fight pratice due to broken fingers sucks.

[Heath B fraychef]

too right,
ive had two fingers broke in one day using hockey gloves.
finger shields are definately a must.
im using finger gauntletts for better grip and flexibility in my hand but i dont want to lose that solid protection.

[Magnus_Jager]

I wear a gorget under my bevor after being bounced years ago at pennsic. I was told that a thrust could come from the side and hit IF my neck was craned just so.. It was the year that they where putting mudflaps on all the helms because a rising thrust could come under the grill. Shortly after they first allowed face thrusts and everyone was way over the top "For Great Safety!"

I'm with you there, Heath. I could never get a gorget that fit properly, was comfortable, etc. So I had a helm custom-made with a built-in bevor so I wouldn't have to.

In early 2008 I had a marshal bounce the helm and insist that I needed a gorget underneath my 14 ga stainless bevor

Haven't had that since, but now I bring an 'Overzealous Marshal Kit' in my bag just in case...it has a copy of the applicable rules, and as a last resort, a gorget.

The way I see it, I go to events to scrap with other fighters, not with marshals. So if they say don't use it, I work around. Hasn't happened in a long time though.

[dukelogan]

yet another poorly written rule.

1. "A mail or heavy leather camail or aventail that hangs or drapes to absorb the force of a blow". holy shit that is a heavy piece of equipment!!! my helm is 12ga stainless steel and weighs 18 lbs which, by the way, is required to have twice as much padding as my neck (and hey, at least they bothered to do the correct math when converting that thickness to that tricky decimal system) and it cannot completely absorb the force of most blows. i mean even the lightest blows still transfer some force through my helm. but the rule doesnt state "some" of the force, it implies all of the force.

2. "....... must be padded with a minimum of .25in (6mm) of close cell foam or equivalent......" look, i know the decimal system confuses american children but come on. is it 1/4" or 6mm? they are not the same.

3. speaking of padding, the society marshals handbook states: "Padding: quilted or multi-layered cloth material, such as mattress pads, moving pads, carpet, felt, or equivalent" ive handled both closed cell foam (which in, and of, itself comes in a huge variety of resiliencies that vary dramatically in their ability to absorb pressure) and moving pads. they are so dissimilar its silly to call them the same thing.

and carpet? are you serious? since when did a piece of carpet have the resistance to pressure that even the cheapest closed cell foam has? besides, if you really want to try to comfort the blow i would suggest some dense open cell foam, you know.... something that actually would absorb a great deal of force when placed behind something rigid.

4. now lets go back to this ditty.... "If the camail or aventail lays in contact with the larynx, cervical vertebrae, or first thoracic vertebra, that section must be padded with a minimum of .25in (6mm) of close cell foam or equivalent.". if your camail is in contact with any of those pieces of your anatomy you, my friend, will need an awful lot of soothing aloe and some nice class 2 narcotics. what i mean is that i already have 6mm (im using that because its less than 1/4") of fat, skin, tissue, muscle, etc in front of each of those. hell, ive seen guys (and girls) that had way more fat alone than this requirement. another poorly written rule dreamed up as some attempt to "make us safe".

kind of like the kidney belt silliness. first, what shot is going to actually damage someones kidney? and, if such a thing even existed, i would understand that little skinny dude needing to wear it but why on earth would you worry about the 370lb guy with the gut that hangs 6 inches over his belt? yet, i am sure some marshal would fail mr big bones if he didnt cover up those poor helpless little beans in his back. but thats another story.....

anyway, dont blame all of the marshals for being stupid (sure plenty of them are, truly, stupid). they are working in a system with little to no training within the confines of a horribly written set of rules that really make little to no sense. no matter what color you spray paint a pile of doggie poo its, well, still poo.

would i like to see our rules paired down to something that made sense, was easy to understand (booo that tricky decimal system.... boo!), and provided enough of a guideline for each person to take the field and enjoy an adequate level of protection while assuming some personal liability? yes, of course.

i would also like to see all kingdoms fight under one set of rules, one understanding of blow force, one expectation of appearance to participate (like the rest of the folks at events have to, but noooooo not the fighters. we can look however we want to. so there!), one set of weapons (you know, things that look like weapons or, at least, were used by the european knightly class in tournaments). but a boy can dream and there is little else he can do........

poorly written rules dont make the job of the marshals any easier. when poorly written rules are coupled with less than bright folks the recipe is ripe for disaster. try to educate your marshals. be patient with them. unless they are so power maddened or too stupid to think you should be able to work something out with them to help them understand the importance of fighters safety and not, so much, about measuring padding or understanding exactly what the first thoracic vertebra is (at least we got rid of the idiotic "neck knob" verbiage. wow...... )

regards
logan

[Dietrich von Stroheim]

Agreed, Logan hit the nail on the head. Getting hit on the kidneys feels pretty much like getting hit on any other heavily-muscled (or otherwise 'padded') part of the body. The kidney belt is another piece of armor I only wear because the rules require it.

Anyway, back to neck covering requirements, the neck is actually pretty muscular and resistant to blunt impact...it's constriction that it is so weak against.

A friend of mine was struck in the side of the gorget by a spear...the (properly padded and fitted) gorget folded around his throat, squeezing it and causing him to black out. If he hadn't had the gorget, he probably would have just said,

"*cough* Good!" and gone off to rez.

I wear a gorget under my bevor after being bounced years ago at pennsic. I was told that a thrust could come from the side and hit IF my neck was craned just so.. snip

Now that is just all KINDS of crazy....

[Heath B fraychef]

i had a similar experiance with a metal gorget the one time i got hit in the neck.
i was on my way to the ground face first when a very polite gentleman thought it would be a good idea to smash my neck for good measure.
the gorget was severely bent, luckily i got it removed before i suffocated.
for some reason marshals dont like when you rip your helm and gorget off right in the middle of the battlefield.

[dukelogan]

blame hollywood. all of the kung fu and super spy movies that show guys chopping people in the neck and killing them instantly (much like when you see the palm strike to the nose and the guy dies, supposedly from some magical part of his nose piercing his brian). its just silly, but it makes for entertaining movie watching.

the neck is extremely durable with little inside it that can cause severe injury. mma guys take shots to the throat all the time, punches with 4oz gloves (from guys that actually know how to punch, elbows, knees, etc. still, youve not found a single mma guy seriously injured from these strikes. blame hollywood.

could someone be seriously injured from a rattan strike to the throat? sure. is it likely? hardly. any type of drape attached to a helm will offer a huge amount of protection against such strikes. adding a little padding to it honestly offers nothing substaintial. in fact i think that most of these hard "dog collars" are more dangerous than helpful when you look at overall protection. a well fitted helm that covers the required "1" below the jawline" coverage makes it very unlikely that a blow could come in unimpeded not to mention that we really dont hit that hard with our flexible weapons. misaligned thrust is more likely but even those, with our crazy amounts of required squish on the ends, dont pose that much of a risk. not as much as hay bales and overweight non-atheletes do.

we should, i think, protect our throats from the occasional shots. if someone is really worried about it after watching steven segal karate chop a guy to death with a throat strike he certainly should go nuts with a gorget. but our marshals need to take a realistic look at risk, be better trained, and provided with an easy to understand set of rules regarding armour.

that training combined with better written rules would do wonders for lowering the shocking amount of varied interpretation that you run into if you are inspected by 10 different marshals on any given day. the human body is a terribly rugged machine, not the fragile sack of goo that some marshals (and rule writers) think it is. we are not indestructable, certainly, but we are also not eggs tossed about outside of our cartons.

regards
logan

Agreed, Logan hit the nail on the head. Getting hit on the kidneys feels pretty much like getting hit on any other heavily-muscled (or otherwise 'padded') part of the body. The kidney belt is another piece of armor I only wear because the rules require it.

Anyway, back to neck covering requirements, the neck is actually pretty muscular and resistant to blunt impact...it's constriction that it is so weak against.

A friend of mine was struck in the side of the gorget by a spear...the (properly padded and fitted) gorget folded around his throat, squeezing it and causing him to black out. If he hadn't had the gorget, he probably would have just said,

"*cough* Good!" and gone off to rez.

I wear a gorget under my bevor after being bounced years ago at pennsic. I was told that a thrust could come from the side and hit IF my neck was craned just so.. snip

Now that is just all KINDS of crazy....

[Diglach Mac Cein]

What percentage of Marshals are we REALLY talking about who are the problem children?

I imagine the rules were written up to cover the largest common denominator for SCA combatants. Yeah, some people might have the muscle (or other) mass to take a shot on the throat, but not everyone. beyond the physical attributes, there is the experience difference between the multi-time Duke with 20+ years of high activtity, and the guy in armor for less than a year.

At least in my exepreicne in the Midrealm, the marshallate has been decently trained, polite, and willing to listen to reason. Of course the fact that I try to avoid coming across like a jerk when I disagree with them helps too. Insulting or bitching at them usually won't encourage discussion.



.

[dukelogan]

problem children? i would say very few. the only place ive personally run into really inept marshals has been at gulf wars. in nearly every case the issue boiled down to an inexpierenced marshal doing inspections based on what his local group does/requires and ill prepared for a larger interkingdom event with varying armour standards. none of them impolite, just ill prepared. a situation easily avoided if each kingdom were responsible for inpecting their own people. i have witnessed some rude marshals at pennsic once or twice as well but very very few.

not sure why you would comment on how one comes across as arent we all bound to be polite? arent all of these folks part of our small and unique community? anyone that is insulting, be they marshal or fighter, for no reason is out of line. im not sure how that is relevant in this conversation though.

regards
logan

What percentage of Marshals are we REALLY talking about who are the problem children?

I imagine the rules were written up to cover the largest common denominator for SCA combatants. Yeah, some people might have the muscle (or other) mass to take a shot on the throat, but not everyone. beyond the physical attributes, there is the experience difference between the multi-time Duke with 20+ years of high activtity, and the guy in armor for less than a year.

At least in my exepreicne in the Midrealm, the marshallate has been decently trained, polite, and willing to listen to reason. Of course the fact that I try to avoid coming across like a jerk when I disagree with them helps too. Insulting or bitching at them usually won't encourage discussion.



.

[Diglach Mac Cein]

I guess my point is that the problem marshal is probably as common as the problem combat archer, or the rhino-hide.

The few times I've seen a inspecting marshal get bull-headed was generally when the guy he was inspecting decided to overrride his decision by being louder, swearing, or "pulling rank" as a senior fighter / Knight / whatever.

Seem that the AA gives a lot of grief to a lot of people becuase of the actions of a minority.

For the OP, I imagine getting that note from their KEM would probably satisfy 99% of the marshals he runs into. At least in my area, gorgets are so ubiquitous that NOT having one would take them by surprise - I'll bet some marshals haven't inspected someone who didn't have one. But once they see that this unique situation is OK with the higer ups, then it would be accepted.



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