The Armour Archive

I've been looking into a rapier to use with my HEMA group, and maybe one day SCA rapier as well. Whats the consensus on this sword from Zen warrior with the 40 inch rapier blade?

If not this, then what would you recommend? I want a hilt that can be used with both hands equally well, and a blade that is good for C&T as well as heavy rapier in the SCA. My HEMA group doesnt have any serious requirements, so thats not much of a concern. I just want to get as much bang for my buck as possible.

Thanks!

Zen Warrior is a good supplier. They make a nice product for the market. I've still got a couple of their swords.

However Darkwood Armory also has a line of introductory weapons check out:this link for their economy line.

Jean-Michel
Meridies

The amount of flex can vary depending on model and even in the same lot usualy is a small variance but I still like buying them in person...
To much flex makes it feal like I have a noodle not a sword To little and your force leavels will be higher untill you become acustome to the blade.

What's the legality of the Darkwood rapier blades in a schlager kingdom? I'm guessing it's just different terminology.

Kenric, East

I'd go with a 35" or 37" rapier blade. I find the 40" blades to long. If you plan on doing C&T with it, the 40" blade is just to long IMHO.

kenrickb wrote:What's the legality of the Darkwood rapier blades in a schlager kingdom? I'm guessing it's just different terminology.

Kenric, East

This is something to take up with an East marshal. My guess is the East is a heavy blade kingdom and not, specifically, a schalger kingdom.

kenrickb wrote:What's the legality of the Darkwood rapier blades in a schlager kingdom? I'm guessing it's just different terminology.

All Darkwood blades are legal for heavy rapier and C&T in all kingdoms that allow rapier, with the exception of the sidesword/backsword and grosse messer blades, which are C&T only.

I highly recommend Darkwood's bated or practice rapier blades in the 38" range for maximum utility, and Darkwood in general.

My primary Darkwood weapon was run over by a semi. I had to replace the swept hilt (the quillons and knucklebow were undamaged), and the blade has a very minor (and legal) bend near the tip from the semi, but is otherwise undamaged.

Saritor wrote:All Darkwood blades are legal for heavy rapier and C&T in all kingdoms that allow rapier, with the exception of the sidesword/backsword and grosse messer blades, which are C&T only.

Thread jack here:

This is something I STILL don't understand. If Rapier and C&T force levels are the equal, and you can Thrust in C&T with C&T only blades, Then why is there a distinction of C&T only blades and Rapier/C&T blades?

Why are some blades ONLY legal for C&T? All things equal, shouldn't those blades be good for Heavy Rapier as well?

kenrickb wrote:What's the legality of the Darkwood rapier blades in a schlager kingdom? I'm guessing it's just different terminology.

Kenric, East

See answer here;

http://sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/

You want appendix 5.

Milan H wrote:I've been looking into a rapier to use with my HEMA group, and maybe one day SCA rapier as well. Whats the consensus on this sword from Zen warrior with the 40 inch rapier blade?

That is the best setup you can get at that price point. Those blades are forged in France by a hardened veteran of the Franco-Algerian War, using the latest and greatest technology, and high-quality steel.

DISCLAIMER; I occasionally work for them.

InsaneIrish wrote:

Saritor wrote:All Darkwood blades are legal for heavy rapier and C&T in all kingdoms that allow rapier, with the exception of the sidesword/backsword and grosse messer blades, which are C&T only.

Thread jack here:

This is something I STILL don't understand. If Rapier and C&T force levels are the equal, and you can Thrust in C&T with C&T only blades, Then why is there a distinction of C&T only blades and Rapier/C&T blades?

Why are some blades ONLY legal for C&T? All things equal, shouldn't those blades be good for Heavy Rapier as well?

I'm just guessing, but it may be because percussive cuts are allowed in C&T and not in heavy rapier.

InsaneIrish wrote:Why are some blades ONLY legal for C&T? All things equal, shouldn't those blades be good for Heavy Rapier as well?

The sidesword/backsword blades are a lot thicker/wider and have less flex than heavy/C&T combo blades. They'll also take a lot more punishment.

It's a lot easier to see the difference if you have them side by side. Really wish I'd been able to make Lilies this last year with my C&T toys for the demo. :\

Cool, so it seems either Darkwood or ZWA is the way to go, but probably best to have a somewhat shorter blade. I like the fact that ZWA has stainless and finished hilts even if they are slightly more than the darkwoods newbie line.

Im curious if the darkwood blades are that much more superior to justify the extra work to make a nice looking weapon. (The rough look doesnt work for me, and polishing bars sucks).

Thanks guys!

Saritor wrote:

InsaneIrish wrote:Why are some blades ONLY legal for C&T? All things equal, shouldn't those blades be good for Heavy Rapier as well?

The sidesword/backsword blades are a lot thicker/wider and have less flex than heavy/C&T combo blades. They'll also take a lot more punishment.

It's a lot easier to see the difference if you have them side by side. Really wish I'd been able to make Lilies this last year with my C&T toys for the demo. :\

I asked this of a former SRM not too long ago. Essentially, a sidesword-style blade has the potential to do meaningful damage to a schlager-style blade. Most HR blades are okay with CT, but some aren't because they can't hold up to the abuse.

Personally, I like the hilt work of James the Just http://www.jamesthejust.com/

I am not being clear. Lets try this:

This blade is heavy rapier and C&T legal:
[img]http://www.warriorsandwonders.com/images/SH1099l.jpg[/img]
Paul Chen practical rapier

This blade is ONLY C&T legal:

Paul Chen Practical Sidesword


Now, by society rules, The rapier can be used for rapier and C&T, but the Sidesword can ONLY be used for C&T. BUT, the rapier can be used against the sidesword.

Now, if the shot calibration is the supposed to be the same, and BOTH disciplines can thrust, then why only the Rapier able to be used for Society HR?

Is it because Society still allows certainly blades that are so small that they are ONLY Heavy Rapier usable and thus the Heavier end of the spectrum (Sidesword) would break them?

And if so, if society dropped the HR ONLY blades altogether, then would that make the C&T only catagory un-needed?

InsaneIrish wrote:I am not being clear. Lets try this:

at risk of insulting a large number of SCA rule-writing types... no, you are not the one not being clear.

I would be absolutely overjoyed to be able to offer my skills in manufacture of rebated rapier, arming sword and longsword to the SCA's practicioners. I'd be over the moon to offer bronze of steel fittings, horn, wire wrap in a range of metals, leather or ivory hilts, and mounted to beautiful blades - blades that could be shaped to a client's chosen geometry if they have an idea of what they want, created by myself from exact copies of any of the countless originals I've studied, or onto off-the-shelf Armourclass or Darkwood blades of choice, for those wanting a simple, effective peice of kit that's unique.


However the insanely labyrinthine documentation of the SCA makes that wish nigh-on impossible - to make sense of what's needed for so many regional areas, to know what type of blades are used, and when there seems to be absolutely no clear-cut defination of what the terminologies used are actually meaning - if they are even consistent at all, and to know what purpose any given blade is allowed to be for or not.

frankly, it's a ****ing clusterfuck of epic proportions, and I have no clue how you guys have'nt had an armed revolt and lynched the people writing the stuff.

Suzerain wrote:

InsaneIrish wrote:I am not being clear. Lets try this:

at risk of insulting a large number of SCA rule-writing types... no, you are not the one not being clear.

I would be absolutely overjoyed to be able to offer my skills in manufacture of rebated rapier, arming sword and longsword to the SCA's practicioners. I'd be over the moon to offer bronze of steel fittings, horn, wire wrap in a range of metals, leather or ivory hilts, and mounted to beautiful blades - blades that could be shaped to a client's chosen geometry if they have an idea of what they want, created by myself from exact copies of any of the countless originals I've studied, or onto off-the-shelf Armourclass or Darkwood blades of choice, for those wanting a simple, effective peice of kit that's unique.


However the insanely labyrinthine documentation of the SCA makes that wish nigh-on impossible - to make sense of what's needed for so many regional areas, to know what type of blades are used, and when there seems to be absolutely no clear-cut defination of what the terminologies used are actually meaning - if they are even consistent at all, and to know what purpose any given blade is allowed to be for or not.

frankly, it's a ****ing clusterfuck of epic proportions, and I have no clue how you guys have'nt had an armed revolt and lynched the people writing the stuff.

I agree wholeheartedly. It is due to this convoluted style of writing concerning the rules that has kept me and my Lady from getting involved in Rapier/Cut & Thrust, as I am unwilling to buy a sword only to be told my kingdom/area doesn't use 'that' style sword.
And I can't for the life of me, figure out what style I do need...

Swete wrote:And I can't for the life of me, figure out what style I do need...

Baron Alejandro wrote:
See answer here;

http://sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/

You want appendix 5.

Baron Alejandro wrote:

Swete wrote:And I can't for the life of me, figure out what style I do need...

Baron Alejandro wrote:
See answer here;

http://sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/rapier/

You want appendix 5.

now, what chicken bones are required for the rites to know what the differences between light rapier, heavy rapier, and cut and thrust are?
And where do the (rare) mentions I've seen of use of rebated longsword for,for example, lichtenaur or fiore fit into this byzantine maze of classifications...? what are the criteria for those blades?


I used to work in the games industry. let's just say if we'd done design documentation as obtuse as those two pdf files... we'd have been taken out the back, up against the wall, and shot.

and then shot again just in case the job was'nt done properly.

InsaneIrish wrote:I am not being clear. Lets try this:

This blade is heavy rapier and C&T legal:
http://www.warriorsandwonders.com/images/SH1099l.jpg
Paul Chen practical rapier

This blade is ONLY C&T legal:
http://www.weaponsemporium.com/WE-Pract ... SH2279.jpg
Paul Chen Practical Sidesword


Now, by society rules, The rapier can be used for rapier and C&T, but the Sidesword can ONLY be used for C&T. BUT, the rapier can be used against the sidesword.

Now, if the shot calibration is the supposed to be the same, and BOTH disciplines can thrust, then why only the Rapier able to be used for Society HR?

Is it because Society still allows certainly blades that are so small that they are ONLY Heavy Rapier usable and thus the Heavier end of the spectrum (Sidesword) would break them?

And if so, if society dropped the HR ONLY blades altogether, then would that make the C&T only catagory un-needed?

A sidesword blade will not, with percussion, do significant and immediate damage to a rebated or practice rapier blade. They are sturdy enough for percussive use.

A rebated or practice rapier blade will not do significant damage to a schlager blade when employed in thrust-oriented HR combat.

A sidesword or longsword, with percussion, will do significant damage to a schlager blade.

Thus: 10% of the available blades can't fight against 10% of the available blades, but 80% of the available blades are good for anything.

Yes, if HR only blades were dropped, then all blades could face all blades. Give it a few years, since schlagers and flexidaggers are becoming less and less common as better and better simulators are produced at affordable prices. I'm estimating about 5 years for C&T to phase out HR nearly entirely as helms become readily available, and in 10 I think HR will be as extinct as epee and foil are now-- which is to say, as soon as helms are commonplace and C&T melee rules exist.

And let me just say: C&T melee would be fantastic. I'd go for these being legal too: http://www.woodenswords.com/WMA/leather_halberd.htm An unarmored calibration standard can handle a lot more than you'd think as long as everyone remembers that skin is soft and throws accordingly. Paulus Hector Mair offers quite a bit on the use of halberds in an unarmored context.

Suzerain wrote:now, what chicken bones are required for the rites to know what the differences between light rapier, heavy rapier, and cut and thrust are?
And where do the (rare) mentions I've seen of use of rebated longsword for,for example, lichtenaur or fiore fit into this byzantine maze of classifications...? what are the criteria for those blades?

Stop being dramatic and look at the table. L = light rapier. H = heavy rapier. C = Cut & thrust.

So say you lived in Caid, and wanted a curved Darkwood blade. Find your kingdom on the top row. Look for the manufacturer on the left column. Darkwood, sabre. Follow that row to the right until you get to the column for Caid, and Y for 'Yes'.

See? Not so hard.

Baron Alejandro wrote:
Stop being dramatic and look at the table. L = light rapier. H = heavy rapier. C = Cut & thrust.

that was'nt drama. that was sarcasm.

I can follow appendix 5 well enough, that one they'll not be up against the wall for; I rather more meant the differences in terms of "what the bloody hell is considered a "light", "heavy" or "cut and thrust", and what criteria are used for the classification thereof?

all that stuff is what I'm trying to hunt down, and you can bugger me sideways and call me sally before I can find the data in that documentation...

Suzerain wrote:... and you can bugger me sideways and call me sally before I can find the data in that documentation...

Well, he is a Spaniard, so that may be taken as a given...

I can follow appendix 5 well enough, that one they'll not be up against the wall for; I rather more meant the differences in terms of "what the bloody hell is considered a "light", "heavy" or "cut and thrust"

These 2 statements are contradictory. If you can follow appendix 5 you should be able to discern that:

Light means modern fencing weapons Foils and Epees

Heavy means weapons which are more like a rapier sometimes given the generic name schlager (just to confuse those who know that Schlager is a specific blade).

Cut and Thrust means the weapon won't die when doing percussive actions. e.g. The WKC Schlager is heavy rapier only. I had one which I attempted to use to learn C&T with. The instructor said OK for the weekend, but get a better weapon ASAP. During the weekend, one of the other weapons (same as mine) broke at the cross without the person ever hitting anything, just practicing cuts in the air. The WKC is not meant to handle those actions, so don't use it.

co10Broek wrote:These 2 statements are contradictory. If you can follow appendix 5 you should be able to discern that:

Light means modern fencing weapons Foils and Epees

Heavy means weapons which are more like a rapier sometimes given the generic name schlager (just to confuse those who know that Schlager is a specific blade).

Cut and Thrust means the weapon won't die when doing percussive actions.

I suspect this is clearly much easier to follow if you're a member, steeped in the terminologies you use, as opposed to anyone looking at this stuff from the point of view of a supplier. personally the idea of using modern fencing foils for pre-17th C techniques is so patently absurd that I assumed that was some sort of strange misuse of a term rather than actual use of foil and epee...

and for C&T "not dying on percussion strokes", I rather fear that the absolute inconsistency of what is represented there is one thing causing my confusion. Flagellum Dei Duelist Hand and Half, for example, seems to come up with nothing on web searches. the terminology there, however, would indicate to me that it's a blade suited to lichtenaur/meyer type longsword work, not marozzo/agrippa/capo fero type work. is it? I have no idea, given the only link to a maker was a dead link, (or stuff to a black metal band....)

co10Broek wrote: e.g. The WKC Schlager is heavy rapier only. I had one which I attempted to use to learn C&T with. The instructor said OK for the weekend, but get a better weapon ASAP. During the weekend, one of the other weapons (same as mine) broke at the cross without the person ever hitting anything, just practicing cuts in the air. The WKC is not meant to handle those actions, so don't use it.

I... What the... *facepalm*

oh soddit, I'm not even going to say a word, before I end up rapidly becoming very unpopular.

Please do not bring foils or epees into this conversation. They mean just that - modern foils and epees, but they are evil and not to be discussed here...

Suzerain wrote: personally the idea of using modern fencing foils for pre-17th C techniques is so patently absurd that I assumed that was some sort of strange misuse of a term rather than actual use of foil and epee...

They are basically a holdover from when they were all that was commercially available. In Caid (essentially, SoCal), their use is legal, but extinct. They are only used for training complete newbies and youth, if that.

The evolution of available blades is what accounts for the somewhat byzantine list. First came modern "dry" fencing blades. These constitute the "light" category.

Then, someone found the blunts used to practice German Messer/Schlaeger, which were stouter, stiffer and available in oval or diamond x-section. Then, manufacturers began to make flexible rapier simulators in historical lengths and weights, Del Tin being the first I recall. These are the "heavy" blades.

Now, with the expansion of the market for the WMA simulators, we have an embarrassment of riches, with everything from Silver's side sword to Marozzo's spada to Fiore's longswords available. These are still evolving, and constitute what is available for "C&T". Some of these are able to be used with the "heavy" category, and some are not. For example, a longsword simulator would shortly damage a rapier simulator that was used to practice Fiore with.

To add to Alex's post, a there are a number of blades on the approved blade list that are no longer manufactured.

These include the MK Armory, Zamarano, Scotty and (possibly) the Flagellum Dei blades. (thus why you can't find links to them).

On thing that you have to keep in mind about SCA rapier is that it's more a set of rules, than a style of fighting. There are people who fence like modern epeeists (including the bouncing), there are people who just get out and fight with little or no training, and there are people who diligently study period fencing texts. As long as everyone adheres to the rules, we can all play together. (just as the SCA can be a "reenactment" group but include romans, and samurai at the same event)

Kevin M wrote:On thing that you have to keep in mind about SCA rapier is that it's more a set of rules, than a style of fighting.

*nods* it's more a right pain in the arse working out what those rules actually mean, so that if I do start whoring myself ou*ahem* expanding my commercial talents, I mean then I really need to know what a potential customer means when they might say "I need SCA heavy rapier" or whatever, so that I have an informed understanding of what the hell each actually is, and can then competently reply with "yes, I can use X, or Y blades on the lists for your stated purpose, or can have z cut that will fit your use exactly..."

If I were to do it Suzerain, I would just make hilts, and have them designed to mount to a specific, common manufacturers blade. This is for a couple of reasons...

1) Since they have the appendix 5 list, anything not on that list is likely to get bounced or stuffed into an experimental status. Offer to make blades, but make sure the client knows they may not be acceptable for SCA use in their region.
2) Shipping... a hilt is much smaller and cheaper to ship across the pond in small numbers.
3) Leaves the whole blade selection problem up to the client. Guide them, but make sure they know you will make the hilt fit a specific family of blades.
4) Personal cost will be lower, since you wont have to front for the blades or materials to make them. You will need a few of the major blades (or really good measurements of them) so you can build hilts to match.
5) Hilts are really unregulated under SCA rapier rules. The major one I can think of is that you have to have rounded points on your quillions and such, which is quite easy to do.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents.

Cheers!

Milan H wrote:If I were to do it Suzerain, I would just make hilts, and have them designed to mount to a specific, common manufacturers blade. This is for a couple of reasons...

I'd be inclined to agree, but at the same time it's a case that I have certain Opinions (ie, through tangs, heated to red, and peined over. Screw threaded hilts are naughty in mine sight, and heretical. ), and there is a certain desire to produce absolutely spot-on fixture and fitting, particularly if it's a flash peice in bronzes, rather than a simple tool of a sword.

even with sample blades I've found there's invariably adjustment to be made to get a blade to fit the hilt, as tangs do distort in heat-treating.

and lastly, it's that little bit of ego of being able to do the whole thing, to a client's specs, including scabbards.

Glad to see you are a craftsman, and not just a business man. I understand your feelings completely.

Cheers,

Suzerain wrote: I really need to know what a potential customer means when they might say "I need SCA heavy rapier" or whatever, so that I have an informed understanding of what the hell each actually is, and can then competently reply with "yes, I can use X, or Y blades on the lists for your stated purpose

You can do that by reading the chart.

From what i can tell, your difficulty is in trying to understand something that you are not a participant or even a truly interested observer in.

Just like any Drag racing fan can instantly tell the difference between "top fue" and "funny car" class, any active SCA rapier fighter knows the difference between "Light", "heavy" and "C&T".

The rules aren't complicated at all- you just don't have the frame of reference to understand them.

Suzerain, why do you want to make SCA swords at all? Why not stick with making custom swords for WMA people and reenactors, who seem to outnumber SCA folks in the UK anyway? The whole idea just seems like a bad fit with your skills and preferences.