The Most Important Places to Have Armour – The Greek Hoplite

[Aaron]

I bring up this subject because there have been comments that my 14 gauge greaves are “non-periodâ€

[Matthew Amt]

Kaire!
Since you're citing my very fine Hoplite website, I better jump in, eh?

There is great debate as to why there were changes in hoplite gear between the 7th and 4th centuries BC, but suffice it to say that whether they were "heavy" or "light" in terms of body armor, the shield had absolute first priority, followed by the helmet and then greaves. The obvious answer is that since the shield covers from neck to knees, the helmet and greaves cover the rest pretty well. The thickness of those pieces is also debated and for some reason very poorly documented. I believe the helmets ran 3 or 4 pounds, thinner than some folks think. My greaves are 18 gauge, and are too thick to "spring" onto my legs, so I think the real ones were a little thinner. All the stuff has to do is serve as metal skin, keeping the sharp edge of a spearpoint from cutting you. They are NOT intended to shrug off a battle-axe, halberd, or SCA sword.

When plate armor re-appears in the middle ages, you'll note that it follows a pattern, the arms being one step behind the legs. First the knees get a cop, then the elbows, then the shins get a plate, then the forearms. Again, probably a bit of debate about why, but I think the simple answer is that knights are mounted, their legs are more easily reached by footmen, and they know that broken knees hurt!

I wouldn't get too far into comparing the 13th and 14th centuries AD with the 5th century BC. The methods of warfare were very different, the big one being that hoplites were infantry while knights were cavalry. Also, it was common at some times for a hoplite to have no body armor, while I don't think there are many examples of a knight discarding body armor but leaving his limbs armored.

I would agree that 14 gauge is probably heavier than greaves were in ancient times, and probably heavier than in the middle ages, too. But you are facing different threats and needs in SCA combat, and if you need 14 gauge to be able to walk back to your car after a fight, by golly, wear them!

Thanks for using my website!

Matthew/Quintus/Aelfric/Mathaios/whatever

[chef de chambre]

Hi Guys,

An interesting theory. Here is a list of 14th century effigies of knights showing no greaves.

Bertold V last Duke of Zahringen (Frieburg-in-Breisgau Cathederal)

A carved effigy of a sleeping knight from an Easter sepulchre (carved 1345) (Musee de l'Oeure Notre Dame, Strasbourg)

The earliest carved alabaster (1340) effigy of a knight in England - the fellow is unknown (Hanbury Church)

The brass of Sir Hugh Hastings (1347)

The brass of Sir Robert de Bures (1331 - Church of All Saints, Acton, Suffolk)

Other objects showing a lack of greaves on 14th c. knights

an early 14th century bronze aquamanile (Bargello Museum, Florence)

Most of the illuminations in the Velislav Bible (Bohemian, 1340)

Matthew is dead on to the evolution of bits of plate (as the best current theory out there - not my theory, but the experts) on the European Knight, and the reason why.

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Bob R.

[The Lost Scott]

My comments on the heavyness of your greeves comes from functionallity stand point, simply put they don't need to be that heavy, in the middle ages most armour was closer to the 18 guage range with the exeption of special jousting harnesses. My greeves are 18 guage I've only been hit in the lower leg once or twice now in SCA combat, I think in period they would be suffecient as armour only needed to last the battle and not repeaty weekly abuse with clubs as ours does, with out the bennifit of an armourer on hand to fix it.

I think you are right the lower legs are important to armour, but the weapon technology was far more advance by the middleages and you may want to look at Greek weapons and tactics then look at the weapons and tactics of middle ages and you may find some answers as to why the greeks fought almost naked. Climate I think would also be a factor in it.

LS

LS

[Harold the Bear]

Aaron you must remember the Greek Hoplites had large Hoplon shields that covered most of their body except their head and their lower legs. So they can forgoe most armour, I do remember seeing in a book that Greeks also had iron breast plates, But i believe that to be in Alexanders time period.

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"All glory is fleeting"

Harold der Bär von Bayern

[Matthew Amt]

Right, Harold, the big shield is a major factor. And yes, an iron version of the older linen cuirass has been found, and we know that iron and bronze mail came into use in the Macedonian or Hellenistic period. But even then, most helmets and armor were bronze--it just seems to be what they liked to work with!

Interestingly, there seems to have been much more armor in the Archaic period, between the Bronze Age and the Classical era (which started c. 500 BC). Bronze cuirasses were apparently pretty common, as were greaves, thigh guards, upper and lower armguards (right side only), and even a few foot guards (hinged at the toes!). But by the Persian Wars (490-480 BC), the most common body armor seems to have been the linen cuirass, and greaves were just about the only limb armor used. After that, things got even lighter for a while, with more open-faced helmets in use and less body armor, though that may have been influenced by the wider use of mercenaries rather than property-owning citizen forces. In the middle ages, the trend is towards more thorough coverage, first in mail and then in plate. You know, Lost Scott, you could be right--it could be the heat! I wonder if anyone has come up with evidence for a warming trend late in the Archaic period? (Now you got my head going!)

Matthew

[Chris]

Hay Guys;
I was watching a show last night on The History Channel International about the Greek Hoplite. They started out with the guys in bronze breast plate, greeves, helm, large round shield, short sword, and a spear about 6 to 7 feet long. There idea seemed to be that as the spear became longer, they stoped the bronze breast plate. When the spear got to be over 10 feet, they were down to just a helm, sheild, short sword, and greaves. Could it have been that they rarely got to sword distance anymore? Could they have only had to worry about the spears hitting them in the head and legs? Just some questions for you more knowledgeable peoples out there.
Chris

[Aaron]

Chef,

Thanks again for the correction. Apparently I've missed some effigies. (I really should e-mail you before I post somthing questionable...you always have the answer readily available...that's a compliment by the way).


Matthew Amt,

Truely, a great web-site. Thank you for taking the time to comment on it.

Lost Scott,

I'm still going with 14 ga for the sake of safety...and some 8 year olds made me this GREAT 14 ga mild greave (one piece!) at the last event. I had cut out the steel, and with my dishing stump and hammers, they hammered out a greave for me. It was fun! You should have seen it! I had lines of nearly six kids long to try this out. And, they did a GREAT job too!

Harold,

Your reasoning is sound.

[Harold the Bear]

"Chris Read Steven Pressfields Gates of Fire. It CONVINCINGLY tells you about Greek Hoplite fighting. They COULD HAVE march with spears out front till they are pushing at each others sheilds. Yes Sheild to sheild pushing. IN THIS THEORY Who ever had the strength to push the enemy out of formation for the slaughter won. RUMOR HAD IT THAT The spartans used to push trees down for training their formations."

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"All glory is fleeting"

Harold der Bär von Bayern

[This message has been edited by Harold the Bear (edited 06-18-2001).]

[Clay]

Damn, Aaron, 14 gauge is pretty thick for your greaves. The thickest I've had is 16 gauge, and those are just splints.

Since the SCA doesn't allow shin shots, why go with such a heavy gauge?

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I'm not being mean, I'm just telling you how it is.
Salinas Swordsman
Darkmoor Armoury (closed until June 25, 2001)

[Aaron]

Ah Harold?

You've made several plausible statements with a small reference... However interesting or amusing they are, they may not be accurate. You could say the same thing with:

"Chris Read Steven Pressfields Gates of Fire. It CONVINCINGLY tells you about Greek Hoplite fighting. They COULD HAVE march with spears out front till they are pushing at each others sheilds. Yes Sheild to sheild pushing. IN THIS THEORY Who ever had the strength to push the enemy out of formation for the slaughter won. RUMOR HAD IT THAT The spartans used to push trees down for training their formations."

My parts are in CAPITAL LETTERS. Now you have said what you have wished to say, without baiting Bob and Glen. You have stated nothing about historical fact, just historical THEORY. Historical theory may be askew and implausible, but it can't really be WRONG.

Gates of Fire is a historical novel.

Bob and Glen will be on you so fast it will make MY head spin -- you might want to rephrase your statement before they notice.

Quoting a historical novel as proof is like me quoting a Harlequin Romance (Historical Romance section) as proof of something being historically correct. And trust me, I've read some of my wife's Harlequin Romances, and they're amusing but not that accurate.

I would suggest Book VII of Herodotus' "Histories" as a more accurate account of the battle of Thermopylae....even if it is boring.

I use 14 ga because I can get scrap 14 ga around here, but no scrap 16 ga. The scrap 18 ga I have tends to be too thin for my taste. I EXPECT to get hit in the shins by newbies (I'm a newbie too...I might even hit myself in the shins!!) and kids during the "Wack-a-Knight" sessions. Given the choice between 14 and 18 ga, I'm going with 14ga. The arms are OK for 18 ga, but they can move. If you hit me in the arm, my arm will move a little and absorb the blow a little. If you hit me in the shins, my planted foot (holding half of the weight of myself and my armour) will "anvil" the hit...and I'll end up with a broken or very bruised shin.

Try this. Plant a pole in the ground. Now swing an axe at it low. You (especially Clay) will either splinter it, or cut through. Now, attach the same size pole to a tether on an overhanging tree limb. Now try to cut the pole. You should notice that the damage to the pole is much less, because the pole moved a little when you swung at it. The pole in the ground simulates my shin. The pole on the tether simulates my arm.

See? Or am I wrong again?


[This message has been edited by Aaron (edited 06-18-2001).]

[Le Brassey]

Matthew Amt's Hoplite site----OUTSTANDING!!! Makes me regret having already started my 2nd c. A.D. Roman kit.

Maybe I'll just sell my Roman stuff on e-bay and put the profits towards a Corinthian & greaves!

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Timothy Finkas (aka: Henri le Brassey)
The Historical Forgerie- http://finkas.home.netcom.com/Forgerie/Index.html