SCA: Do you need some award to display East Tyger on Shield?

[Baron Alcyoneus]

the use of Laurel Wreaths on coats of arms is required and reserved for territorial groups in the SCA

They'd think it a territorial group.


If I were you, for a pennant, I'd go with tyger section, laurel wreath section, your stuff.

Or, tyger, your stuff with laurel wreath(s) somewhere on the field, but not surrounding anything.

[dukelogan]

you might be able to diaper the tyger. putting the wreath in its mouth or in its hand/paw. not totally sure though, i aint no herald type. i know you can do that to your own personal heraldry (ie my wolf is diapered with a ducal coronet on its head and if i were a laurel i could have him grasping a wreath).

regards
logan

If it is all by it self (a laurel wreath on a solid color background) people will know what it means. Anything else added to it and people will be asking "What group (Barnoy, Shire, etc) is that?"

OK, so if I took the blue tyger and put the Laurel wreath around it, would it be unallowable or would it just be confusing but allowable?

-Tasha

[Cet]

OK, so if I took the blue tyger and put the Laurel wreath around it, would it be unallowable or would it just be confusing but allowable?

For use on a banner I would keep the wreath an the tiger separate as I think of them as tow distinct badges rather than one i.e a laurel wreath and tiger rather than a tiger within a laurel wreath.

[kaiö]

Logan - I understand, thanks for clarifying. We're cool

[white mountain armoury]

I can dig out my banner Tiberius made me and have a look, it has my personal arms, motto, EK Pop badge and a laurel wreath.
I dont recall the order.
Tiberius knows what he is doing and did a fine job.

[Jan]

the use of Laurel Wreaths on coats of arms is required and reserved for territorial groups in the SCA

They'd think it a territorial group.


If I were you, for a pennant, I'd go with tyger section, laurel wreath section, your stuff.

Or, tyger, your stuff with laurel wreath(s) somewhere on the field, but not surrounding anything.

...or, depending upon your arms and the elements within do a diapering of laurel wreathes. As a member of the order you do have the right to use the charge, but as you have already cited, it could cause confusion.

[Amanda M]

You just have to keep it separate from any other charges so it doesn't look like a group's armory. You could as a group pass an animal charge maintaining a laurel wreath so the idea of having it be gripped is cool but it's not the same as say a ducal coronet or something. The Laurel wreath is weird because it's not exclusive to the OL unlike the other peerages. There was a push to change that recently if I remember correctly to give the OL exclusive regalia or something but I don't know what ever came of it if anything.

[Tailoress]

I hate to keep beating this horse, but does the following passage mean that I would be violating corpora if I use a Laurel wreath (standing alone) on my banner?? Obviously I'm not submitting this as my arms (already have registered arms), so I wouldn't be placing it "on my armory" as stated below, but I would be displaying it heraldically.

So, what's the final word on this? If there is one?

RULES FOR SUBMISSIONS of the College of Arms of the Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc. Part XI, Section 1. Reserved Charges. - Armory that contains elements reserved ...... Symbols reserved or required solely inside the Society may only be registered to those entitled to the status associated with those symbols.

Examples of such elements include the field Azure, semy-de-lys Or, which is restricted to French royalty; a laurel wreath, required for official Society branches; the knights annulet of chain, etc. Lists of these charges can be found in the glossary. Some elements, like the French royal field, are always restricted. Others are limited to specific segments of the Society. For example, individuals may not place laurel wreaths on their armory, while only those who are royal peers may use the insignia of those ranks.

This page was last updated on Monday, April 7th, 2008 @ 10:36 pm CDT

Copyright © 1995 - 2010 Society for Creative Anachronism, Inc."

[Amanda M]

IMO it's kind of a grey area. There's no Society rules of any kind that I know of which govern heraldic display like banners outside of the submission process. Some Kingdoms have sumptuary laws dealing with banners but if your Kingdom doesn't, then I would just display it as a separate charge on a field by itself. I've made banners that don't follow that and so far I haven't heard of any comments or complaints from anyone. But I have run into sort of a related problem and displaying it separately would clear it up.

What I have run into is problems with the use of group armory with the wreath instead of the populace badge because it's reserved for use by the Crown/Coronet or what have you. So since the wreath is reserved in terms of heraldic display as being for use by Society branches, if you display it by itself it should avoid any confusion or nit pickiness of some people. Another option would be to place a small inescutcheon with the wreath on your arms which stylistically would separate the two. The only problem with that is from a historical perspective it's kind of back asswards.

[Cet]

Banners are not coat of arms- they can many elements that can not be registered as heraldry such as mottoes etc... and I think the laurel wreath on a banner falls withing heraldic adornment (sic) " the Laurel Wreath as a personal heraldic adornment is reserved to members of the Order of the Laurel. "

I have a laurel wreath on the guidon Isabella made for me so you can always point complainers my way

[Derian le Breton]

in response to your statements/questions below if the east has some sort of populace symbol or badge of course someone can display it. they can display most items related to their kingdoms heraldry without worrying about anyone getting bent out of shape so long as they dont use certain elements (laurel wreath, crown, etc). a good example, if youve been to pennsic, is the amount of cats from the midrealm that have shields painted with something very close tot he mids arms.

Interestingly, the <A HREF="http://www.midrealm.org/heraldry/images/mkbadge.gif">Midrealm's populace badge</A> includes the dragon, but many people choose just to display the pale. The dragon is often used in augmentations of arms, IIRC.

-Derian.

[Derian le Breton]

So, what's the final word on this? If there is one?

I'm not a herald, but I think the answer lies in the definition of "personal heraldic ornament"; perhaps how many knights display their arms within a circular white belt?

-Derian.

[Amanda M]

Yeah but the Laurel is the only Peerage that doesn't have a charge reserved for display with their arms because it's already reserved for something else. If you put a laurel wreath on your device it looks like the arms of a Society branch.

If I were a Laurel and I were making myself a banner I'd just say f-it and put the wreath on there myself then explain later if necessary.

[Tailoress]

I'm satisfied. I'm using the wreath. It'll be exiled out on the tail, separated from my arms and the populace badge by a motto.

I'm glad Cet said I can direct complainers to him. I love how he handles complainers.

[Tiberius Iulius Rufus]

I can dig out my banner Tiberius made me and have a look, it has my personal arms, motto, EK Pop badge and a laurel wreath.
I dont recall the order.
Tiberius knows what he is doing and did a fine job.

Thanks, Master.

I usually craft the populace badge closest to the pole, declaring loyalty.

The other elements follow.