Marshalls on the Board: Would chains from breastplate to swo

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 5:51 pm

Howdy to the Marshalls on the Board,

Would chains from breastplate to sword be an OK lanyard? During the 14th Century the Germans "dummy-corded" their helms, swords and daggers to their breast plates. Would this be acceptable in the SCA for a lanyard? The sword is chained to my chest -- it's not going anywhere!

-Aaron

DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 6:10 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Howdy to the Marshalls on the Board,

Would chains from breastplate to sword be an OK lanyard? During the 14th Century the Germans "dummy-corded" their helms, swords and daggers to their breast plates. Would this be acceptable in the SCA for a lanyard? The sword is chained to my chest -- it's not going anywhere!

-Aaron<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't see any reason that it wouldn't fit the equivalent rule. You can't pitch your sword into the crowd, or anywhere else. As long as the chain or what have you was long enough for you to move the sword properly, it seems that it would be a good period solution to the problem.

Dan
(Province Knight Marshal, etc.)

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 6:22 pm

Alright Dan, it does do that.
However, if it IS long enough for him to use properly, it would make the chain, what, 2 &1/2 feet long?
(Think about a cross body shot you throw to your off side...)
So, if the sword ISN'T in his hand, what happens to the 2 foot chain?
Where does it go?
vvS

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 6:39 pm

Vermin,

So your concern is that I'll "clothsline" someone with the chain or "garott" them?

Please, voice ANY concerns -- even silly ones. I would like to have answers for the Marshalls if they ask.

What about a chain to the helm? Would that be a safety hazard?

If the sword fell from my hand, it would fall down and hit me in the knees (or "jewels"...let's hear it for cups!!). If it was over someone's shield we might be tangled up and call a hold (I would conceed the fight).

-Aaron

[This message has been edited by Aaron (edited 07-13-2001).]

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 7:01 pm

I think the chain to breastplate would be illegal for the same reason Ball and chains are illegal.
1.It could get wrapped around an arm, head, piece of armour etc and cause some massive damage.

[This message has been edited by Brennus (edited 07-13-2001).]

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 7:05 pm

Aaron.....
"What about a chain to the helm? Would that be a safety hazard?"
Here's a VERY freaky and weird, but true, story that MAY help you re-think this.
A buddy of mine went to go see Fear last year.
At the club they were playing at there was a fem/dom lesbian couple.
One was leading the other around on a leash.
They decided to go into the pit.

It wasn't pretty.
Lee Ving stopped the show and said that he had never, ever, seen anything quite like that.
I believe the girl ended up in the hospital Aaron.
I'd rather you not end up there.
Don't attach things to your noggin man.

It's not the clotheslining I'm worried about, and if you were in a Pas, I wouldn't be too concerned.
But were this device,a sword on the end of a 2 ft chain, entered into a melee, and you dropped your sword, or died and the chain was laying on the ground......

I foresee problems.
vvS

Just grammatical changes.....

[This message has been edited by Vermin (edited 07-13-2001).]

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 7:12 pm

Brennus said:

I think the chain to breastplate would be illegal for the same reason Ball and chains are illegal.
1.It could get wrapped around an arm, head, piece of armour etc and cause some massive damage. 

Silly...the rason ball and chains are verboten is:
1. The rule was made when the society had freoncan helms, padded(only) joint protection, and gumby gloves. In those situations, the flail IS dangerous.
2. The powers that be dont like the idea of having to deal witht he effects of a jointed weapon. (mainly, watch the shield wall fall)

As an aside, do the rules dictate to where the lanyard must attach? i've seen wislt lanyards (that went around the neck) knife lanyards (that attach to the belt) etc...

-+G

DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vermin:

So, if the sword ISN'T in his hand, what happens to the 2 foot chain?
Where does it go?
vvS<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Same place it did in period. It hangs between his chest and the sword hilt, which should either be in a scabbard or his hand. If he drops it, the chain keeps the sword close to his body, where it will fall and the sword will hang from it with the end on the ground. Even laying down, it's not likely to get far enough away to cause a problem, certainly not as much of one as glaves and pikes mixed up in the middle of a pile of "bodies".

Dan

DanNV · Post by **DanNV** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 8:28 pm

Aaron,

My advice to you would be to call your Kingdom Earl Marshal and get his opinion. It'll save you a mountain of time and hassle.

Dan

Aidan Cambel · Post by **Aidan Cambel** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 9:04 pm

I am only a deputy, but my gut says no. Reason being is that in order to have it long enought to allow a full arm extension in any direction that your arm will go it would have to be 3 feet long or more. When you get in close and tight, you now have 2 feet of slack in the chain. the chain is less than an inch thick. it produces a slight possibility of going into an eye slot.

granted that would be a freak thing ... but so is getting the nock of an arrow in there, and see how that has turned out?

Not to mention in a melee situation it will provide a larger tripping hazard that normal if you were on the ground.

I haven't looked up any specific rules yet, but my gut says no.

In Service,
Aidan

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 9:20 pm

I am not a marshall -- but there is a guy in my area who's been doing it for over a year, so my guess would be, it's at least legal in the West.
It does take some getting used to.

[This message has been edited by Dmitriy (edited 07-13-2001).]

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 10:54 pm

Actually Rev if you look in the Known World Handbook you will see my pt dramatically illustrated as a cartoon. the chain of a ball and chain is wrapped around the wrist of a fighter and the user is trying to pull it back snapping the wrist.
That is a problem to me, what happens when you fight a person in a war and in the confusion dont see that the chain has wrapped its self around one of your opponents or friends.

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sic locus dignum, sic dignus placitum http://brennus.stormloader.com/interkin.html

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Fri Jul 13, 2001 11:35 pm

If it is not a suitable equivalent, I would be surprised. I am also getting a little sick of every thing someone suggests being considered a safety hazard when it involves rattan fighters and not a safety hazard when it involves throwing weapons, archery, combat archery, catapults, etc.

When did someone decide to make SCA heavy weapons combat as safe as play with padded dolls?

Give me a break.

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 12:04 am

Brennus... Talk about propaganda.... you also have someone with a "pike maul" shearing thru a shield, and collapsing a helmet. and a bizzaro wierd can opener thingy.
I doubt that the flail/ morning star is as dangerous as that cartoon makes it out to be..
take for example this design:
[img]http://members2.easyspace.com/revgeorge/pics/flail.jpg[/img]
i cant figure out any way this could do that, but it would do the shield wrap...

-+G

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 12:29 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Aaron:
Howdy to the Marshalls on the Board,

Would chains from breastplate to sword be an OK lanyard-Aaron<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did exactly that. At one tourney I had my chain to helm, chain to shield and chain to sword. I wouldn't do it in a war due to the possibility of entangling myself, not someone else... No one beefed about it at all at the events I did it, then I took my armor apart and quit fighting for a bit. I was doing German 1372..

I've been a Sr. Marshal for over 18 yrs. I don't see any rules against it. There are lots of armors that have tangling possibilities. So what? Lots of armor has sharp pointy bits too.. I think people get too paranoid sometimes.

If the Marshals are in doubt of its safety, ask to playtest it with challenges explaining to each opponent that you are in "playtest" mode with it. When they see it is no big deal, they may relent.

The flail/ball and chain issue is the extra torc when used as a weapon.... though we've used them in household tournies for years. You just drill a softball and use 1/2" cord knotted into a chain.

Juliana

Payn · Post by **Payn** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 2:16 am

I'll ask Sir Aethelred the next time I see him (same practice) but I am willing to bet that he says yeah under the premise that as long as the rule book doesn't right out ban it, he'll generally allow it.

Fritz

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 8:12 am

I think the SCA's paranoia regarding flexible weapons is silly. Markland has been using them for many years, with no problems.

They are very effective, because it seems that people instinctively block the shaft, allowing the rope and head to swing around and whack them. At a demo, one fella had a peasant's flail, and was mopping up. I went out with a polearm, and when he swung, blocked the ROPE. It wrapped around my haft, and I yanked it right out his hands! hehehe...

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 10:39 am

Well, Sir Richard....
To give you an example of why
I would not like to see something like this on the field....
And I'll use someone you know to illustrate it.

Lets look at Sir Gunther from the East.

(And NONE of this is because I think Gunther is a bad guy, or is less than chivalrous. )

Now theres a big guy with a early German personna.

Say I'm in a mellee and somehow I get tangled in Gunther's (or somone his size.)chain.

Now I want to go over THERE....
Hey, I'm not moving.
I can't move Gunther.
Now, suppose GUNTHER want to go over THERE.

Now I AM moving.
Whether I like it or not.

If I am not ABLE to move.....
Ouch.

No, really.
Ouch.
I don't really see a happy ending to that story, how about you?

Like I said, I don't think it would happen on purpose, but you start sticking 2-3 foot chains on people, it WILL happen.

Ever played with a manriki-gusari Richard?

I don't think this is an effort to make things as safe as "play with padded dolls" either.
A broken bone would suck, but it'll heal.
But someone as big as Gunther could do some SERIOUS rotator cuff damage to someone if they got caught on an arm in a mellee.

Take it from someone who's had a nasty shoulder injury, you REALLY want to avoid this.
And the MRI's
And the physical rehab.
And all the lost work time.
And the hoping that you get all of your mobility back. (I didn't)
I won't even TOUCH the insurance hassles....

VvS

Brennus · Post by **Brennus** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 11:47 am

I think the argument isnt about flexible weapons but is about chains. While in a tourney I would see no problem, but melees can and do get confusing at times.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 11:56 am

I guess I don't see why anyone would want to use this in melee, because it could get caught on someone and the smaller person could get hurt.

But in singles tourney...go for it. I can't see how it'd be dangerous. The eye slot argument is specious at best. I'll let you try all day long to stab me in the eye with a chain.

Conal · Post by **Conal** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 9:40 pm

Would a chained sword be safe? I'm not 100% sure, but I believe I would allow it on an experimental basis.

Regards,

Conal

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Sat Jul 14, 2001 11:42 pm

Vermin said "Now theres a big guy with a early German personna.

Say I'm in a mellee and somehow I get tangled in Gunther's (or somone his size.)chain.

Now I want to go over THERE....
Hey, I'm not moving.
I can't move Gunther.
Now, suppose GUNTHER want to go over THERE.

Now I AM moving.
Whether I like it or not.

If I am not ABLE to move.....
Ouch.

No, really.
Ouch.
I don't really see a happy ending to that story, how about you?"

RB-Clearly you are right Vermin. The SCA should ban small fighters from participation for safety reasons.

Vermin said "Ever played with a manriki-gusari Richard?"

RB-I have no idea what this is. Does it taste like chicken?

Vermin said "I don't think this is an effort to make things as safe as "play with padded dolls" either.
A broken bone would suck, but it'll heal.
But someone as big as Gunther could do some SERIOUS rotator cuff damage to someone if they got caught on an arm in a mellee."

RB-You have a point, I just don't happen to agree that this is all that dangerous if we use our brains and play responsibly. I would rather see authenticity in harness. I am also overreacting a little to all the recent attempts to remove every possible way you can get hurt from the lists. The final straw for me was the idiots wanting me to pad the wings on my couters and poleyns and the very, very thick shield edges some kingdoms were considering (I think Trimeras actually is enforcing one of these).

Vermin said: "Take it from someone who's had a nasty shoulder injury, you REALLY want to avoid this.
And the MRI's
And the physical rehab.
And all the lost work time.
And the hoping that you get all of your mobility back. (I didn't)
I won't even TOUCH the insurance hassles...."

RB-Valid points all, I just don't think that the risk is truly that great. I am willing to accept a certain amount of risk to play the game the way I like it to be played.

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 9:31 am

Richard,
I have no problems with the idea in Single Combat format.
It would look cool as all get-out.

I just don't think I'd like it in melee situations.

VvS

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 10:44 am

Well, what about a rope rather than a chian? Would that be safer? Or a leather thong?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vermin:

Now theres a big guy with a early German personna.
Say I'm in a mellee and somehow I get tangled in Gunther's (or somone his size.)chain.
Now I want to go over THERE....
Hey, I'm not moving.
I can't move Gunther.
Now, suppose GUNTHER want to go over THERE.
Now I AM moving.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? I weigh 185 lbs (I would like to be 175 lbs) and my armour is ~80 lbs. Now, If I dig in and resist, Lord Gunther isn't moving anywhere. Try it sometime. Put ~250 lbs of weight on ONE leg of Gunther and try to get him to move.

What about the example of the extremely light, minimalist doing the same thing (now what is a minamalist doing with accurate 1370 AD armour I would like to know....). Given 100 pounds of flesh, and 12 pounds of armour, weapon and (optional) shield that is 112 lbs. Now, even then, Lord Gunther would notice the problem (Oh my!! I just gained over 100 pounds....shouldn't have had that extra serving at lunch!

), and the minimalist, Lord Gunther, or someone could call a hold quite quickly.

Does that make sense?

-Aaron

Vermin · Post by **Vermin** » Mon Jul 16, 2001 11:06 am

Ok, did you ever notice that no one ever calls "HOLD!" just once?
And that the action never stops as soon as the hold is called.
Many factors decide reaction time, some we can control, some we can't.
In a perfect world , your solution would work just great!
Unfortunately....melee more resembles chaos than an orderly function.
The best you can manage is a shuddering stop.

So, in theory it works, in application..?
Well, in 10 years of melee's I have YET to see one stop on a dime.
Some HAVE come close, I must admit that.
But, it's nothing I'd want to count on.

And,
Have you ever met Sir Gunther?
You'd remember him. (grin)

VvS

Effingham · Post by **Effingham** » Tue Jul 17, 2001 12:44 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>They are very effective, because it seems that people instinctively block the shaft, allowing the rope and head to
swing around and whack them. At a demo, one fella had a peasant's flail, and was mopping up. I went out with a
polearm, and when he swung, blocked the ROPE. It wrapped around my haft, and I yanked it right out his hands!
hehehe...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, and if the same thing is done with a guy with a sword, and it's lanyarded on, you've just broken his wrist.

Effingham

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 3:41 pm

From the center of my chest to the center of my fist is 2 ft 8 inches.

Now, when my hand is in towards my body, and the longest point I have 1 ft 4 inches slack (up and down).

Getting this into an eyeslot is a non-issue. Someone would have to be held in a headlock under my arm for that to be a problem.

Someone trusting in and getting tangled up in the chain -- maybe.

As was said, I will have to talk to the Kingdom Earl Marshall.

-Aaron

Aaron · Post by **Aaron** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 6:32 pm

Here is a chain on a helm at Pennsic:

http://images.pennsic.net/cgi-bin/pennsic/photos.cgi?cat=garb-armor

It would be unlikely to get caught on something.

But at the same time, here is a Duke in a Barrel Helm...so some really weird things happened at Pennsic!

http://images.pennsic.net/cgi-bin/pennsic/photos.cgi?cat=garb-armor

Hrodir · Post by **Hrodir** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 9:44 pm

Aaron,

as a regional marshall for the Northshield, I would caution you in this.the lanyard would be crossing a very high movment area. your arms,swords,and your opponents weapons speed though this space alot. start with the lanyard on when you practice at the pell, then try it with some buddies. if it works out though all of this then bring it to the marshalls. you can then give them a report of how the testing went with your friends add there experience .

good luck Ulrick

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Fri Jul 20, 2001 11:50 pm

Markland weapons aren't lanyarded. And how would a sword wrap itself around my haft?

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Payn · Post by **Payn** » Sun Jul 22, 2001 9:25 pm

Ok... I talked to Sir Aethelred Saturday night and got the ruling that. in fact. it could be. possibly. okokok He said that "it isn't outlawed in the rules. Go for it."

Fritz

Ogedei · Post by **Ogedei** » Tue Jul 31, 2001 9:26 am

My biggest concern and the reason I would never do this would be getting the chain wrapped around my head when returning off body shots over my head. This may or may not happen but it might.

As for "hold" stopping action...If you yell it loud, it stops it pretty fast.

But as I said before, nothing is 100% perfect and this is a full contact game. Trying to set it up so that fighters on the field are 100% safe is dumb.

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http://members.tripod.com/mongolian_page

Konrad · Post by **Konrad** » Tue Jul 31, 2001 1:46 pm

Here's a shot of my old Tourney harness with a dagger attached to my breastplate with a chain lanyard.

http://www.100megsfree3.com/kragaxe/archive/gallery2/konrad.html

I used this type of arrangement serveral times at Pennsic and Estrella without much trouble. I may be biased, but I think your ideas should be carried out, and they represent another we can clean up our 'non-historical image'. Besides, if they give you trouble about it in you Kingdom, you can always come play with us!

Konrad
Konig Artemisia

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"Pecunia non potest emere elegentium"