The Armour Archive

Hello everybody

what I am trying to find is a good training book that shows the correct way to use a sword and shield , please note i don't mean a buckler a "popper" shield

if i place my shield up agents my body it stars at the base of my neck and the v parts end at the top part of my leg - big wooden shield

the reason i ask is 1) i want to train and get my movements right and my strikes correct

2) is that we have a nation competition every year and the guys we fight against , use long sword and are saying that if we don't have manuals about the correct way to fight then there is this long argument over it "politics" and now they are trying to make rules for our way of sword fighting which pisses me off , so if i can find a book i can tell them to stick it where the sun don't shine

the funny thing is with all there manuals and ect we still normally hold the top spots and we are saying if you want to beat us get around our shields "by the way our fighting system you can hit any where head,legs, chest so its not like we dont have to move our shield around alot we earn our kills

Block with shield.
Hit with sword.
Repeat.

I think that Talhoffer has some shield work in it (not much though).

Other than that are it sounds like you are doing it the right way. If they think you style is wrong let them come and show you what is wrong with it.

Ah...you want to beat HEMA folks at their own game, right?

Try this: www.salvatorfabris.com/BologneseSwordAn ... ctions.pdf

Well to be honest the other group believes that when full plate was in use they stopped using shields cause because why use a shield when your armour can fully protect you

they also say that there is no proof that they we still being used other that for decorative reason

they are really stuck up

Hehehe this pdf is good it will really put them in there place thanks alot JohannM i think you just made my day

Lord_Tofu wrote:Hehehe this pdf is good it will really put them in there place thanks alot JohannM i think you just made my day

Well, not to burst your bubble...but they have a point, and any search of historic imagery shows a decline in shield usage alongside of an increase in plate armours.

That said...I hope it helps you improve your fighting skills.

I know but to be honest, i just cant believe that they stopped using shield , i just cant , it is a good fighting style , its cheap and good against arrows saving the armour from getting damaged

I just cant see why it would of been thrown away

maybe its just me grasping at straws

He didn't say the shield was abandoned. There are numerous illustrations showing men in full harness with hand pavices.

They were not abandoned, just nearly abandoned.

The shield was primarily (not entirely) a protection against sharp pointy things like spears and arrows. Against the sword the primary defense has almost always been another sword. So as you enter the age of plate you find the shield is used by the mounted man to deflect lances and, not much more. The unarmored man on foot continues to use the shield as a buckler (easy to transport) in a tradition that stretches back over two hundred years.

That said, you seem to be describing a typically Norman shield which is from far earlier than the age of plate. The earliest fechtbuch that I am aware of is I.33 and that's from ca 1290-1330. No one has anything but iconography and the occasional written description from earlier than that. Not that I'm aware of. What time period does your organization do?

Apples, baseballs and pens.

What happens when you throw them all in duel tournament?

Because that is what is happening. You have sword/shield/mail from 1000 vs longsword/plate from 1400 and now you want to use a document on Bolognese Rotella/unarmoured dueling based from 1500-1600 manuscripts to 'justify' your shield work?

A mixed tournament, while fun, isn't going to prove, well, anything. I don't know your rule set, but I can say that shields work very well with SCA-like rules (chain standard) and that they don't work so well with, say, combat of the 30 like rules (plate standard). If you include grappling actions, that is also in favor of buckler and longsword styles.

To be quit honest, in an earnest fight my money is on the guy in plate. Simply because the guy with the shield is going to be mostly infective against the plate. One handed weapon, limited ability to take down.. it is going to be hard to damage the plate guy. On the other hand, in a tournament I swing the other way, because the guy with the longsword is going to have a much harder time stopping a solid hit from landing (one which would really do very little damage), yet one that 'wins' the bout.

well its kind of weird cause our club is so small +- 6-12 members on a good night , we really dont have much of a period time line 13th - early 16th century is what we are aiming at

and in the country we have 4 groups with around about the same amount of members, most have more

we are the most armoured group in the country have 2 make shift armourers in the group me being one of them and two member buying complete suits

so every year we get together to do what we call emasa Europe martial arts of South Africa which is fun and i look forward to it but there is alot of arguing over "politics" our group although we use full plate armour still use shields and we are the only group the others do German two handed sword and other is Italian two handed

The guy that started our club belonged to a New Zeland

I do kind of agree with you JimC in some ways and not int other i feel that fighting was very personal and personal tastes would of filtered down if you like using a shield why wouldn't you ?

lol i dont want to cause a fight just some food for thought but if there where a few people that like certain weapons rare ones and customized armour so little has surived through till today that i fell it is more than likely lost to time that because only a few did it and the weapons or armour was so unique that it did survive , i know for me i like my sword to have an extended handle just fell alot more comfortable

lol and if i was on the battlefield with a shield vs a guy in full plate i would be using a war pike or axe something that would punch through the plate and a very evil thought to leave you guys with every wonder how many people protect there toes which stick out a little more than the leg does

Lord_Tofu wrote:n if you like using a shield why wouldn't you ?

Because useing a shield required one to use a one handed weapon which was ineffective against a plate clad opponent whom is trying to kill you. You put your likes aside and use...

using a war pike or axe something that would punch through the plate

... something effective.

Thanks for the PDF location!

Should be a good read.

-Ivan

IvanIS wrote:Thanks for the PDF location!

Should be a good read.

-Ivan

Its indeed a fun read...we've been working with it for a little while now and while there are a few discrepancies in the text we really like it.

When do you think the Dagger manual will be translated?

Hey Lord_Tofu-

Check out this group!

www.internationalcombatleague.tk

Based out of europe but new and steadily growing!

Lord_Tofu wrote:I do kind of agree with you JimC in some ways and not int other i feel that fighting was very personal and personal tastes would of filtered down if you like using a shield why wouldn't you ?

I'd use whatever was most efficient and useful for the task/conditions I was facing... regardless of personal taste. Sure, I could hammer a nail into wood with a wrench... but wouldn't using a hammer make more sense, even if I liked the wrench more?

Lord_Tofu wrote: lol and if i was on the battlefield with a shield vs a guy in full plate i would be using a war pike or axe something that would punch through the plate and a very evil thought to leave you guys with every wonder how many people protect there toes which stick out a little more than the leg does

2 handed weapons are far better at defeating armour- and shields would be a hindrance if things came to grappling. Feet? Sabatons, mail, sometimes both. And footwork.[/quote]

IvanIS wrote:When do you think the Dagger manual will be translated?

Who Me? Dunno sorry.

Isn't there some historical documentation of viking era combatants using an axe in two hands with a shield slung on a strap around the neck or back and one arm through a strap also?

I would swear I read something about that on the AA.

Greetings Tofu,

Sadly there are no period fight books that depict combat with an arming sword and “shieldâ€

[quote="ticeetal"]Greetings Tofu,

Sadly there are no period fight books that depict combat with an arming sword and “shieldâ€

Yep, all we have is a few later sources and enticing earlier images.

Now, from these we can extrapolate possible methods...however, "possible methods" cannot be mistaken for "facts". Fun experiments yes, but unless another source comes to light these are only theories.

Fun experiments though...