Ideas for war tabards/surcoats

[FrauHirsch]

I'm thinking of making surcoats/tabards/jupons for our little warband.

I've found a nice linen, now I just need to decide what style to do.

I'd like to do a later period style. The cut would need to look good over a variety of armor. A number of us wear a fair amount of plate.

I'll also need something generic for loaner tabards for those fighting with us temporarily.

Does anyone have pictures of a heraldic armor covering that they've seen work well for a mixed period SCA warband?

[InsaneIrish]

try these:

[Gorm]

I can't link it from work, since the pic is on facebook, but Caer Mear had an excellent bunch of sleeved tabards at Pennsic 5 or so years ago.

You can probably find the pic, I believe it's off Sir Corby's account. If it's still an issue tonight when I get home I'll link it.

[FrauHirsch]

I kind of like the ones in The Medieval Soldier by Gary Embleton, but they aren't shown over armor:
http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Soldier- ... 1859150365

I'm thinking they would be about 5" longer than the guy in this picture below:
http://www.bucks-retinue.org.uk/index.p ... itemId=184

These seem somewhat shorter than the typical SCA tabard and often have a rounded bottom (and narrower shoulders than in the pictures below.)

http://s327.photobucket.com/albums/k452 ... =slideshow

http://www.companie-of-st-george.ch/cms ... y_Military

http://www.amazon.com/Medieval-Military ... 1861263716

I'm thinking they could be full cotes even, and even have sleeves if the individuals want to make their own, but our loaner ones would be generic.

http://www.bucks-retinue.org.uk/index.p ... itemId=190

We have several 15th and some early 16th c. personas. It is my understanding that the tabards in the previous posts are herald's tabards. Does anyone have picts of them worn over armor like livery?

[zachos]

Here's some examples from our group:

the "Herald" tabard:

[img]http://photos-g.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs017.snc1/2998_71439774094_515864094_1563730_659521_n.jpg[/img]

The "sleeveless"

[img]http://photos-h.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs017.snc1/2998_71767859094_515864094_1569866_5845947_n.jpg[/img]

The captains coat:

[img]http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs017.snc1/2998_71439779094_515864094_1563731_4780398_n.jpg[/img]

Finally, lots of us have bends, as they'r much easier to make and just as historical:



Hope this helps.

[FrauHirsch]

Very nice! Zachos. I was thinking about bends too.

Do you have more information about the officers' coat?

When, where, what group, etc? Interesting.

I assume these are wool?

I am in So. CA and we fight in such warm weather, I was going to go with linen, but considering putting the heraldic stuff in wool.

[Corby de la Flamme]

No matter what else, avoid tabards!

Tabards are fine for heralds.

Fighters need a surcoat, or depending on era, at least something that ties on the sides. (The ones 2 posts up look like they tie. The ones in Irish's post don't.)

A belt is not sufficient. Open sided tabards, while more or less one size fits all, are really one size fits none and as soon as you start moving in it, it pulls up through the belt and you start looking like you're half undressed. They are a mess for anything but shouting or serving feast.

Oh and Frau: while one style looks really, well, uniform, I personally suggest that you customize for each fighter's period. A viking in a 15th C. tabard is just wrong.

[InsaneIrish]

http://www.larsdatter.com/mens-surcoats.htm

More specifically:

http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/gg0949_071b.jpg

http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/p ... tgall.html

Andrea del Castagno. Farinata degli Uberti. From the Cycle of Famous Men and Women. c. 1448. Fresco transferred to wood. 250 x 154 cm. Galleria degli Uffizi, Florence, Italy.

http://northernelectric.ca/medieval/hat ... tagno7.jpg

[MJBlazek]

http://www.larsdatter.com/mens-surcoats.htm

More specifically:

http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/gg0949_071b.jpg

http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/p ... tgall.html

Andrea del Castagno. Farinata degli Uberti. From the Cycle of Famous Men and Women. c. 1448. Fresco transferred to wood. 250 x 154 cm. Galleria degli Uffizi, Florence, Italy.

http://northernelectric.ca/medieval/hat ... tagno7.jpg

I've always liked this guy:
http://fr.academic.ru/pictures/frwiki/6 ... no_004.jpg

[James B.]

I put a few articles about livery together:

http://www.replications.com/greys/Stand ... Livery.htm

http://www.historiclife.com/pdf/KASF200 ... Livery.pdf

[zachos]

Very nice! Zachos. I was thinking about bends too.

Do you have more information about the officers' coat?

When, where, what group, etc? Interesting.

I assume these are wool?

I am in So. CA and we fight in such warm weather, I was going to go with linen, but considering putting the heraldic stuff in wool.

The officers coat is just based on a loose coat from the late 15th century, but its been given a twist with the livery pattern. That and the two tabards (which I think tie at the sides) are from my 1470s group where we represent the household of Sir James Tyrrell. None of us is group captain, so the coat is actually group property, and everyone owns either a tabard or a bend.
As Tyrrell was Captain of Calais for a while, the tabards are all Calais Garrison (red cross) and have a blue knot on them somewhere (as seen on the right breast of the sleeveless tabard). Are Tyrrell bends are made of the same undyed wool, with the knot on them to mark us as Tyrells men.
The red and Blue bend is from my other group. We are a group of welshmen who followed ap Harry and all died at edgecote in 1469. Red and blue are his colours, and we all wear woolen bends given to us by our group captain. In battles that take place after 1469 the red and blue becomes the red and blue of the Yorkist kings. This is super handy.

Another thing we've done is we all have a painted little bit of canvas in the shape of a shield. Its the Coat of arms of the Town that the ap Harry's protected, and serves as the badge for the town watch. This is unobtrusive enough to be sewn onto hoods, coats or cloaks, but shows who we are to anyone who knows what it is.

What we have done in each group, is had one part the same, but then everyone gets to personalize it somehow. All of the blue knots are made by one lady, and then we choose where to put them. I may even make a coat and sew it my next one to that. In my other groups, all the bends are made of the same two pieces of wool, so they all match, but then of course they show off our different armours underneath.

If I were you, I would choose one small thing that can be mass produced: A badge or something similar, and then make enough to give to all your fighters. They can then do with it what they want to show their allegiance.

[FrauHirsch]

Thanks all!

We are a small group, and while most of us have decent armor that is nice to show off, there are often newer folks or pickups that have random loaner gear or fantasy or sca-oid armor, which would be nice to hide so that the group looks more cohesive.

We had some incidents where the battle got pretty jumbled and some of our guys were taken out by friendly fire because we weren't well marked.

Most of the personas tend to hover last quarter of the 15th through first quarter of the 16th c. Most of us are continental: Italian or German personas, or personas who are working for Italian or German companies.

[Donald St. Colin]

No matter what else, avoid tabards!

Tabards are fine for heralds.

Fighters need a surcoat, or depending on era, at least something that ties on the sides. (The ones 2 posts up look like they tie. The ones in Irish's post don't.)

A belt is not sufficient. Open sided tabards, while more or less one size fits all, are really one size fits none and as soon as you start moving in it, it pulls up through the belt and you start looking like you're half undressed. They are a mess for anything but shouting or serving feast.

Oh and Frau: while one style looks really, well, uniform, I personally suggest that you customize for each fighter's period. A viking in a 15th C. tabard is just wrong.

+1 Thankyou.