Cross guard vs basket hilt?

Khutudei · Post by **Khutudei** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 9:06 am

Hello all,

I don't know if this topic has come up in the past, but I will ask about it now. Since I've determined my current SCA broadsword basket hilt to be rather unfriendly with my half-gauntlets, I've started to think about purchasing some full clamshell gauntlets and switching to a cross guard. I think this might be a good idea in terms of period-ness and maneuverability.

However, when I brought this up at our local fighter practice, a lot of the older fighters tried to steer me away from the idea. They were telling me about how the cross guard would totally change the way I'd need to throw a strike, that the strike wouldn't be "as effective," and that the sword would be too hard to control with the full gauntlets. Of course, though, I am sure these are things fighters would have had to deal with and work around in period, so, being a fan of authenticity, I'm still very interested in swapping my basket for the cross hilt.

I just wanted to know what you guys think of this. Do any of you a cross guard (on single hand sword) instead of a basket hilt? Do you have any particular opinions on the use of a cross guard?

Thanks!

- Khutudei

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 9:17 am

Ok...novice fighter here (or rather one with little practice)

The way I was taught to throw a wrap involved using the basket to help control the sword on the backswing.

The other problem I cna think of is that many times SCA gauntlets are a good deal deeper than period gautlets so depending on how the strapping is, you might notice a reduced gripstrength on the sword.

I say go for it. I'm sure you can learn how to use them effectively. If it aids your gaol of being more period, then rock out.

-+G

Kevin the Hound · Post by **Kevin the Hound** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 9:27 am

Well, if you want to know what I do, for 20 years of SCA combat I have ALWAYS used crossguards and full gauntlets. I don't like basket hilted sword balance, I personally think basket hilts are ugly and VERY non-period looking, and, from what I have researched (not overly extensive on this particular topic) basket-hilted swords pretty much were not used in Medieval Tourneys. They are a very late period addition to swords. Think about it: if your persona is some 13th century warrior, and you are blocking shots with your sword baskets, and you are pretty sure your persona would NEVER have seen or concieved of a sword basket hilt, then are you really fighting in an appropriate and period manner?
I know that the needs of non-broken fingers DRASTICALLY outweigh periodness, because clamshell gauntlets are also fairly late period, but I have seen way too many people over the years block with their basket-hilts and teach others to do the same. If you want to do sport SCA fighting, then great. That is how the Modern Sport of SCA Fighting is done. But if you want to learn a little more about period sword handling (and I know the SCA doesn't do a really great job of that either) then you may want to try learning a style that doesn't PURPOSEFULLY put your "invulnerable" hands at risk.

On the other hand (pun intended) basket hilts provide excellent protection for your fingers, which is a big plus if your regular life job requires you not have hand injuries. I have even heard the potentially apocryphal story of a surgeon who took up SCA fighting who fought in clamshell gauntlets under full basket hilts.

And I STILL don't like what a basket hilt does to the balance of a sword.

Kevin the Hound

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Pars Acuta in Alio (The Pointy End Goes into the Other Man)

Roderick · Post by **Roderick** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 9:40 am

I've fought with both cross hilts and baskets off and on for 19 years. Each have different charecteristics depending on the weight and balance of the sword. A 1/4 mild steel basket will perform significantly different from a solid aluminum sheet basket.

For SCA Sport Fighting the baskets are the way to go. Solid protection for a low price. The baskets will affect the way you throw blows. They will help you to throw certain blows like the wrap.

For aesthetics cross hilts are the best. Nothing looks worse on a period harness than basket hilts, except perhaps tennis shoes! The balance can be adjusted by using different wieght pommels. In doing just that I have a sword that I believe is about period weight and balance. Wraps are not a problem. The important thing with cross hilted swords is of course the gauntlets used with them. If your gauntlets are too heavy or restrictive then the "cross hilted sword" won't work well.

Sorry for the spelling errors or poor logic train, just got a call and have to run.

Roderick

bela of kaffa · Post by **bela of kaffa** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 10:36 am

i switched from basket hilts to cross guards about 3 years ago, and will now use a basket hilt only with the greatest reluctance!
the 2 types definately are balanced and handle differently, but once you get accustomed to the difference your shot availibility should not change... plus, you get the added advantage of learning very quickly how not to block with your hands!
I don't know if it's me or my equipment, but i really believe that when a shot is well thrown, the cross-hilted sword can do much of the work for you!

ps, i love my anshelm arms quillon/pommel set!
add-on: mandrake has some nice ones also!

your milage may vary,
bela

[This message has been edited by bela of kaffa (edited 10-12-2001).]

Captain Jamie · Post by **Captain Jamie** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 11:01 am

Cross hilted swords with an appropriate pommel weight do act differently than basket hilted swords. The weight distribution is very different and can make your sword able to react more quickly. There can be differences in power also mostly for the good. That pommel is on the end of a lever arm now and because it is a concentrated mass way down there on the end instead of distributed over a 6-8 inch sphere around the hand you will pick up some force.
Try to find Mark Schneider's pommels. They are very well done.

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Captain Jamie

Bedlam · Post by **Bedlam** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 11:03 am

Yes the dynamics are different. Radically different? I am not sure. The best way to find out is pell work and fighter practice. Then weigh the following:
Desire for authenticity
Need for protection
Effectiveness in combat.

I seldom fight with anything but GS and Polearm but when I do use a sword and shield, I wear full gauntlets and a cup hilt sword. My decision was primarily based on protection. I got my thumb broken while wearing gaunts. It was a freak shot that didn't crunch my thumb, but hit it end on and drove the second bone into the third, thereby causing a Y fracture on the end of the second bone. Needless to say I don't want to repeat that!
Anyway, I also like to punch shields and hook them with the sword hand and having that much weight on my fist is pretty effective.

BEDLAM

Marcus Von Westphal · Fri Oct 12, 2001 11:37 am

I fought with basket hilts for 12+ years, but then decided that I wanted to go with a more period look so I began designing some cast brass pommels. Wow, what a difference this makes. Once I switched to the cross and pommel, I will never go back. I will admit that the basket gives you excellent hand protection, but the balance and movement of a cross and hilt can not be matched. (Gee you mean they made them that way for a reason??) With the cross and pommel, I have found that
1. Your weapon looks much more period.
2. Your weapon will turn or â€œchange upâ€

yoshimitsu · Post by **yoshimitsu** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 1:19 pm

Now I have only been playing for about 2 years now. I used a basket hilt for about 5 months. Then I borrowed a freinds full gaunts and katana (tsuba vise a cross hilt, more period for my persona) I will never use a basket again in my life. The way a sword swings when you can twist it around the sides of your hand gives it an added momentum and therefore power. I have also experimented with weighting the pommel and have had some good things come out of it. One other thing is that my bread and butter shot got about 50% faster with the katana vise a basket hilt. My advise would be to try it out. Use it for a couple of months and decide from there. If you dont like it well then you have the gaunts to start playing with GS or pole arms or a spear.
good luck with what ever you decide.

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TEKEDA YOSHIMITSU
live long enuf to win the fight

Bedlam · Post by **Bedlam** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:08 pm

Yoshimitsu:
I am confused, you went from a sword with a basket to katana. Are you fighting single sword or two katanas (Shiiten Ryu)?
Please don't say you are fighting katana and heater! I am not an authenticity nut by any means, but I have never been able to deal with a samurai with a shield.

BEDLAM

Aelric · Post by **Aelric** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:57 pm

Just make sure you have good gauntlets! If they work right and dont restrict your hand then it will be almost as easy for you to fight in them as a basket. I use Mandrake gaunts and have for a few years. They work well with a cross hilt and dont pull against my hand at all.

Aelric

Thaddeus · Post by **Thaddeus** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 4:04 pm

Could those of you with experience fighting with cross hilts give us some input on gauntlet design. What are the important ranges of motion, should it ground out on the rattan, or use a healthly amount of padding instead. What is an optimal (if any) weight. And any other detail that might be important.
BTW great to see you on the archive Marcus, your castings are fabulous. How are the plans to expand your line going?

Marcus Von Westphal · Sat Oct 13, 2001 10:41 am

For gauntlets, I my advice would be use a pair that allows you close your hand on a small stick comfortably. It seems like many gauntlets are made for pole or GS and wonâ€™t close sufficiently for single sword. The other thing is, when mounting the glove, leave either the first and last OR the first 2 fingers free. The other fingers will hold the gauntlet closed, but having the first and last finger free will give you the control you need for a sword.

BTW great to see you on the archive Marcus, your castings are fabulous. How are the plans to expand your line going?

Thanks, I am currently working up a wheel pommel and a new guard to match. The wheel is easy, getting a later period cross that looks right, is light enough and meets the SCA combat conventions is a little tricky though.

Marcus

Reinhard · Post by **Reinhard** » Sat Oct 13, 2001 1:54 pm

On leaving a finger free.
How safe is it for the finger left free? I use a trigger flick and I was wondering if the marshals would see this finger sticking out from under the gauntlet and bounce me, either that or I'd get my index finger broken. Were any period gaunts shaped to take this into account?
Also, I was talking this over with a mate and he showed me several leather or steel gaunts, but pointed out that they still require a sort of squeeze between the index finger and the thumb about half way down the digitd rather than a good grip. Is this just me or are they all like this?

bela of kaffa · Post by **bela of kaffa** » Sat Oct 13, 2001 3:37 pm

as far as gauntlets go, i use egg harbour, um, ah, non-metallic/non leather... oh, whatthehell, they're non-glossy black kydex and i love them! I don't know how period the design is, but they have the lames that float on straps, as opposed to being hinged. I was first familiarized with this design by a pair of gauntlets made by sir seoseah (sp?) of trimaris'.
I love the design, it seems to give the flexibility needed for the subtle hand pressures required for single sword,(ie, i can use different amounts of pressure with different finger groupings) and definately gives the needed protection!

bela

Marcus Von Westphal · Post by **Marcus Von Westphal** » Sat Oct 13, 2001 3:55 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>On leaving a finger free.
How safe is it for the finger left free? I use a trigger flick and I was wondering if the marshals would see this finger sticking out from under the gauntlet and bounce me, either that or I'd get my index finger broken.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On my setup the fingers that are free don't actually stick out. What I do is attach a tab of leather to the two center fingers and attach that to the gauntlet. This allows me fine control with the two fingers that are free and the two attached fingers keep the gauntlet closed. When you close your hand around the weapon, from the outside, it looks the same as if all fingers were attached, but on the inside you have the freedom to move or wiggle the free fingers. This is where the control comes from. On my sword I actually have a leather trigger on the grip that my fist finger goes through. I have never had a finger slip outside of the closed gauntlet, and I have never had a problem with the marshals. Hope this helps to clarify things.

Ulfar · Post by **Ulfar** » Sat Oct 13, 2001 8:51 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Marcus Von Westphal:
I fought with basket hilts for 12+ years, but then decided that I wanted to go with a more period look so I began designing some cast brass pommels<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you ever considered selling them?

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If you risk nothing, you risk everything.

Marcus Von Westphal · Sat Oct 13, 2001 10:33 pm

Have you ever considered selling them?

Actually I do sell them. I merchant at Pennsic under the shop name The Otters Den. I currently offer the brazil nut (see earlier post) and a lobated Viking style. I made 44 sets up for war and only have a few left right now so if you are interested you can drop me an email. Eventually we will get our web site finished ( http://www.ottersden.com )...never enough time to do it all...
Marcus

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:36 pm

So how much? I'd hate to have to reinvent the wheel for more than you are charging...

Marcus Von Westphal · Tue Oct 16, 2001 11:01 am

So how much? I'd hate to have to reinvent the wheel for more than you are charging...

With shipping they are $75.00 If you are interested, you can contact me via email and I will give you more details.

Ned Chaney · Post by **Ned Chaney** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 11:29 am

I'm too new a fighter to comment on technique with a cross hilt. I chose cross hilt with gauntlets because I want to fight as closely as I can to the way our ancestors fought back in their day. Granted full mitten gauntlets didn't come along until late in our period, and for the period my persona would have inhabited it would have been finger gaunts, but I 'm willing to make that one compromise to try and fight more like someone from that time period would have fought and stay within what the SCA requires. This desire to be like they were drives what I have for a harness, what I wear for garb, what my camp looks like and most everything else I do in the SCA. That's why I chose to use a Cross guard. Besides, I never have liked those ugly basket hilts.
One other thing I forgot to add so I'm editing this. Anshelm, Mandrake, and Dragon Forge all make Quillions and pommel sets that rock. I have a set by Anshelm that i'm using right now that I really like.
Here's a pic of my Anshelm set: [img]http://www.members.home.net/nolead/sword.jpg[/img]

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Emm aye sea kayee why. Emm ohyou essee.

[This message has been edited by edward atte flynt (edited 10-16-2001).]

[This message has been edited by edward atte flynt (edited 10-16-2001).]

albatros · Post by **albatros** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 2:13 pm

I use Marcus' pomel and cross hilt. The are a bit heavy, but they give your sword perfect balance. you can really whip your shots in fast with a minimul amount of effort. Plus they look damn nice!!

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Conrad the Mad
Man-at-arms to Robert' De Tyre Esq.

Templar Bob/De Tyre · Post by **Templar Bob/De Tyre** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 2:39 pm

Marcus, et al:

By way of commentary, Iâ€™ve used Marcusâ€™ pommels and crosshilts. They are different from those of other manufactures in that they use a flange to attach the pommel and cross to the rattan, rather than a lag-bolt and screw or hose-clamp. This gives the weapon a much cleaner look.

In addition, Iâ€™ve etched the pommels of two of his pommel sets---theyâ€™re pretty. Use a bit of Nevr-Dull polish on them and they shine like new. Add a leather scabbard and belt, and you look a lot more convincing on the list.

ADDENDUM

I have used (or constructed) swords with three of the merchants currently selling pommels and cross combos for rattan swords. The ones sold by Mandrake come in both bronze and in aluminum. Those supplied by Anshelm are aluminum. The ones sold by Marcus von Westphal are bronze.

All are well-made products, and comparable in construction. Anshelmâ€™s pommel sets will stand up to a lot of punishing combat, and are easy to wield. Mandrakeâ€™s pommel sets arenâ€™t as â€œshinyâ€

Ned Chaney · Post by **Ned Chaney** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:07 pm

Where can one see this Marcus' work?

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Emm aye sea kayee why. Emm ohyou essee.

Marcus Von Westphal · Post by **Marcus Von Westphal** » Tue Oct 16, 2001 4:52 pm

Where can one see this Marcus' work?

Our pommels can be viewed here:

http://www.ottersden.com/product/fighting_pommels.htm

Please keep in mind that our website is still under construction. If you would like more specific information please drop me an email.

Thanks
Marcus

Alexander · Post by **Alexander** » Wed Oct 17, 2001 6:05 am

Servus,

Hey Marcus, you paying Templar Bob to give you such glowing praise?

Seriously though, I haven't fought with a sword in some time but will definitely have a cross and pommel on any new broadswords I construct. Having them on my bastard sword has made fighting that style infinitely simpler and gives my shot combos fantastic flow. I swung one of the chaps' broadswords with a cross and pommel and the feel was markedly superior to the `ol bird cage!

Your Milage May Vary....

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Pax Vobiscum,

Herr Alexander

[This message has been edited by Alexander (edited 10-17-2001).]

Templar Bob/De Tyre · Post by **Templar Bob/De Tyre** » Wed Oct 17, 2001 6:24 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by edward atte flynt:
Where can one see this Marcus' work?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Edward:

An example of Marcus' "Brazil-nut" pommel set is shown above in this thread. His "Lobated-Viking pommel set can be seen on his site.

He has a "Beveled-wheel" style pommel set in development.

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Robert Coleman, Jr.

The Noble Companie and Order of St. Maurice

Those who beat their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who don't.

[This message has been edited by Templar Bob/De Tyre (edited 10-17-2001).]

albatros · Post by **albatros** » Wed Oct 17, 2001 8:11 am

Actually praise is for the quality of Marcus's work. The pomels and cross hilt are exceptional and like T-Bob said, you get a really nice feel with them.

You should see marcus fight with them, he is ruthless!!!

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Conrad the Mad
Man-at-arms to Robert' De Tyre Esq.

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Wed Oct 17, 2001 8:54 am

I hate basket hilts. A lot. But I will only fight in them. I beat my hands up too badly fighting in hockey gloves and gauntlets with cross hilted broadswords. I never found a pair of gauntlets (made of steel) that would protect my hands adequately for SCA combat and allow me a reasonable level of control of the weapon. As far as period gauntlets, most of them were very light with minimal padding and if you try to fight in in them in the SCA, you are likely to break fingers. The majority of the period gauntlets designed for swords (not tournament gauntlets or gauntlets for other weapons) tended to be finger gauntlets, right up into the 15th century (I don't care for most armour after that period) and lends credence the idea that the medievals avoided making hand blocks.

If someone comes up with a metal gauntly that will protect me and let me reasonably control the weapon, I will use it. Also, if you want to be competitive at the higher levels of the SCA, you will notice basket hilts are used by 99.9% of the competitors. There is a reason and all of the comments about basket hilts not balancing as well as a cross guard tend to fall by the wayside when you consider that fact. I do agree that most basket hilts change the balance and feel of the weapons, not to mention the weight. If you pick up a real medieval broadsword (not a replica) you might be amazed at how light and well balanced these things really are. Even a cross hilted/metal pommelled SCA rattan weapon does not feel or move like these.

Another point that never seems to come up is period sword grips. If you look at the shape and width of period grips, they are much smaller and different than modern SCA grips (thick, round or oval at best). The period swords allow for subtle control inputs that simply don't do much on SCA broadswords. In the SCA's defense, if you shave a rattan sword down like that, it will break. But I did want to point that out as a major difference in construction that is overlooked.

[This message has been edited by Richard Blackmoore (edited 10-17-2001).]

Joe Skeesick · Post by **Joe Skeesick** » Wed Oct 17, 2001 9:15 am

Marcus,

Very nice work. I do hope you end up offering some later period sets as well. You will certainly sell a few if you do. The connection method makes alot of sence considering the limited strength of ratan.

Oh, and you've got a nice beginning on the site.... looks to be several interesting products comming in the future.

J

Marcus Von Westphal · Wed Oct 17, 2001 10:07 am

if you want to be competitive at the higher levels of the SCA, you will notice basket hilts are used by 99.9% of the competitors. There is a reason and all of the comments about basket hilts not balancing as well as a cross guard tend to fall by the wayside when you consider that fact.

Hmmm, so are you implying that those of us that use a cross and pommel are not competing at the top level? Iâ€™m not sure what it is like in your area but I can give you a long list of Dukes, Counts and knights in our region that do not use baskets. I think that they would be surprised to find that they are not competing at a â€œhigher levelâ€

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Wed Oct 17, 2001 11:51 am

"Hmmm, so are you implying that those of us that use a cross and pommel are not competing at the top level? Iâ€™m not sure what it is like in your area but I can give you a long list of Dukes, Counts and knights in our region that do not use baskets. I think that they would be surprised to find that they are not competing at a â€œhigher levelâ€

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Sun Oct 21, 2001 11:00 pm

having fought with both i prefer the gauntlet and cross hilt. looks way better and with good gauntlets(andy ward gaunts work great with a broadsword since they dont restrict wrist movement) i find that im just as effective as with a basket.

i still use a basket for tourney fighting(more to do with not having a pommel and cross hilt set) but for melees i will only use a gauntlet with a cross hilted sword or a mace or hand ax. that gives you the ability to pick up other weapons in a melee(i.e. a spear or polearm)

yoshimitsu · Post by **yoshimitsu** » Mon Oct 22, 2001 8:54 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bedlam:
Yoshimitsu:
I am confused, you went from a sword with a basket to katana. Are you fighting single sword or two katanas (Shiiten Ryu)?
Please don't say you are fighting katana and heater! I am not an authenticity nut by any means, but I have never been able to deal with a samurai with a shield.

BEDLAM<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bedlam I use katana and wakasashi. When I need to use a sheild I use a rectangular flat. It is really small and not good for meele but oll right for touney.

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TEKEDA YOSHIMITSU
live long enuf to win the fight

Ld. Ondart de Clermont · Mon Oct 22, 2001 10:54 pm

Just a personal observation for you. I purchased the crossguard/pommel that Marcus sells and had the opportunity to try them out tonight on a new sword. Well, it's different I say that. I didn't appreciate the fact that my hockey gloves fit so tightly in my basket hilts that I barely had to hold onto the sword when fighting. Now, I actually have to hold onto it and I became rather fatigued in the forearm. Yeah, I'm rather out of shape but I've been fighting basket hilts for 12 years and the ol' forearms didn't have to do near as much work just to hold onto the sword. Control was very good, seemed right on target even when tired. The best was a noticeable increase in power. Not one call of light tonight, though most kills were head shots. I like the crossguard/pommel set and will be doing pell work to build up the forearms just so I can use them. Try it, you might just like it. I do, and boy did I get some nice comments about how sharp the sword looked.

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Ld. Ondart de Clermont
Squire to Ivar Rhidri Eithr Drenger
Haus Kriegsturm
Barony of Sternfeld
Middle Kingdom
House Kriegsturm Message Board