Non-'late period' fencing

Reinhard · Post by **Reinhard** » Mon Sep 24, 2001 10:51 pm

I think I've been clear on this before, but I find the SCA fencing setup to be entrenched in the late period and too structured to be much fun. I believe wholeheartedly in safety but I'd like a more open arrangement that allows the warriors of the holmegang, german judicial combat and other forms of unarmoured armed combat to fit in without trying to be what they're not.

Now, I believe the fencing setup as it stands is okay for portraying late period armed combat, but only for that. I don't advocate the scrapping of the SCA fencing system in *any* way, but I do advocate another system, just as an idea . . .

So, if there was a hypothetical new system for fighting, taking in no armour or very light armour and non-battle weapons, how would it be structured?

I think basing it on Heavy style combat rules is best, it'd be an easy crossover for the disciplines and would present a SCA wide method of combat that would be user friendly. Now, what would the weapons be made of?

Obviously, shlagger blades are out. No one in their right mind allows anyone to run in a poking and cutting system like heavy with a steel blade. I've used built up fibreglass blades and liked it, they're whippy but not too whippy, and only on the bias of the blade section. They're homemade out of kite rod, so don't cost a small fortune to get yourself started and only need the basic marshall inspection before combat for use. I'd use the rules for light helms + mesh for head protection, and an 18 gauge standard for the other classic SCA locations, plus a total covering of leather as exists now.
This may look exactly like the fencing rules now, but I'd leave it at just that.
No various grades, schools etc. Just authorisation when you pick up a new weapon, and running past the marshalls.

I'm not sure how braod bladed weapons such as the scramaseax or basilard would be handled, any ideas?

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Tue Sep 25, 2001 2:33 pm

BAH -
Fiberglass ...Rattan - same thing -
You're not Fighting with a Steel Weapon

The only difficulty IMHO with the current SCA-fencing system (I'm talking East Kingdom rules - which seems to be broader than most)is the lack of "chopping" cuts.

I believe only a slight increase in armour is needed to allow for that with Schlager.
See the rule-set I developed for the Red Kaganate (URL at my signature)

The only reason "late period" personnas predominate on the Fencing field is because they have wrongheadedly bought into the notion that
"modern fencing weapon" = Rapier
(and a Rapier is somehow inherently different from a Longsword)
...but I have seen a Viking or two, a Samurai, and am myself an East European.

I participated in a couple of discussions of this issue on this board fairly recently,
you may want to seek them out.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

woodwose · Post by **woodwose** » Tue Sep 25, 2001 5:45 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Norman:
BAH -
The only difficulty IMHO with the current SCA-fencing system (I'm talking East Kingdom rules - which seems to be broader than most)is the lack of "chopping" cuts.

I believe only a slight increase in armour is needed to allow for that with Schlager.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

from personal experiance... some people seem to think that if someone is wearing more armor, they are allowed to hit them harder.
that could lead to some calibration problems.

I'd go for more training of how to deliver a blow at a level of calibration where more armor is not needed.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Fri Sep 28, 2001 1:38 pm

Dweezle --

Training is always implied.

However, based on my experience as a Saber fencer outside the SCA,
I do not personally believe that a Saber-type cut with a Schlager blade is safe at present SCA-fencing armour grade.

The other implicit issue to prevent ratcheting of power is unhesitating punishment of excessive force.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Reinhard · Post by **Reinhard** » Fri Sep 28, 2001 3:47 pm

Very true Norman, and that's why I'm postulating an *un*armoured combat system, and I'm afraid schlagger blades only have a place within the existing 'fencing' system.
Which is good, because I'm not advocating that we do anything to that, just theorise about something different. (Although I value your views too!)

So, we require something that allows thrusts, chops and draw cuts, possibly even hits from non-cutting weapons. The fibreglass blades I mentioned earlier are quite rigid and you have to watch what you're doing, I stepped into a stop-hit and picked up the best bruise I've recievesd in the SCA to date. They're sadly lacking in the 'chopability' department though.
The thing I advocate about fibreglass blades so strongly is that they're cheap and infinitely customisable, very much like rattan. You're not limited by what is available for purchase from the various manufacturers, so beginners can get right in and play as well as face a large variety of weapons on the field.

Buran · Post by **Buran** » Fri Sep 28, 2001 4:41 pm

Some compromises have to be made. [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img]
In Regia Anglorum, we use naked steel, but with some restrictions. Obviously the steel is blunt

, with special restrictions on blades.

There is also training to keep the blows light enough to tolerate (like hand-clap is the standard). Target areas are restricted; most groups will not allow headshots, even with a helmet and coif.

Also, I think the de-emphasis on winners and losers keeps the tone light, so no one is hell-bent on rhinoing and gamesmanship. S'pose to be fun, huh?

Obviously, this is early period, so plate and helms are not used.

------------------
<><><> <><><> <><><>
Baldurstrand

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Mon Oct 01, 2001 11:31 am

Very true Norman, and that's why I'm postulating an *un*armoured combat system, and I'm afraid schlagger blades only have a place within the existing 'fencing' system.

SHRUG
I don't think the slight increase in armour would qualify it as armoured fighting.
(ie: pretty much an added 4 ounce leather vest over existing gear -- or equivalent)

...not really a fan of the European limited-target and hit systems.
Maybe its just a matter of unfamiliarity, but it seems that you're giving up waay too much of the dynamics of the fight
...seems to me, a lightened weapon is a better compromise
SHRUG - we all give up something, I suppose its all a matter of what pieces we find more important

...have also fought an "unarmoured" no-touch style (with full weight steel swords) --
All attacks are used -- the idea is to pass the opponent's defense -- no touch is necessary to score.
many folks fought in just the clothing necesitated by modesty (and they were not so modest).
I found that gloves were necessary (the few accidents we had were all to hands, and gloves were sufficient to prevent damage), some modicum of clothing a good idea, as well as head protection (accidents can happen, though thank God I didn't see any in my experience of that group) --
Integrating it into the official Red Kaganate rules, I went with the current Schlager-basic armour of the SCA.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Lubeck · Post by **Lubeck** » Mon Oct 01, 2001 12:49 pm

I don't think I understand the topic quite yet. You want something in between fencing and heavy weapons styles that incorporates the freedom to use slash cuts on lightly armoured opponents? I personally would not like to ever get slashed with fiberglass no matter how thick it is. I compete in fencing and heavy weapons styles in the SCA, and I've heard many many arguments about people who cross over onto either list and have calibration issues. If I were to take a fiberglass blade and swing it in a slashing motion I do not think that I could safely contain the momentum enough if someone stepped in on the strike to keep from harming them. I may be misunderstanding the topic though. I've personally been hit with rattan in such a way that I know what can be imparted into a swing using the proper body mechanics. I think that if you get a good to average heavy weapons fighter they may be a dangerous opponent in this new style due to their previous training.

Reinhard · Post by **Reinhard** » Mon Oct 01, 2001 5:29 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lubeck:
I don't think I understand the topic quite yet. You want something in between fencing and heavy weapons styles that incorporates the freedom to use slash cuts on lightly armoured opponents? I personally would not like to ever get slashed with fiberglass no matter how thick it is. I compete in fencing and heavy weapons styles in the SCA, and I've heard many many arguments about people who cross over onto either list and have calibration issues. If I were to take a fiberglass blade and swing it in a slashing motion I do not think that I could safely contain the momentum enough if someone stepped in on the strike to keep from harming them. I may be misunderstanding the topic though. I've personally been hit with rattan in such a way that I know what can be imparted into a swing using the proper body mechanics. I think that if you get a good to average heavy weapons fighter they may be a dangerous opponent in this new style due to their previous training.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Lubeck, but I didn't describe how a fibreglass blade is made.
They're built up with fibreglass 'kite rod' in a diamond pattern. A 4mm rod, then a 5mm, then a 6mm etc, here goes the risky ASCII map!

oO0Oo

That's how your blade is built, and frankly you could be slashed with it all afternoon and just get annoyed. It is also wrapped in that marvellous material for reenactment, duct tape

It's this DIY blade system that makes them infinitely customisable. Short stiff blades, long Elizabethan rapiers, nasty estocs, just sit at home with the hot glue, rod and duct tape. An archery blunt goes on the pointy end. I moved into a powerfull stop-hit and only picked up a bruise on my arm comparable to a strike from a rattan stick.

With this method of construction, it only flexes one way in a similiar method to a blade (it has a more realistic feel than an olympic style foil in my opinion.)

Now, why bother with an intermediate style?
Well, it may be different in the rest of the world(e), but here fencing is almost excusively set up for late period fencers, and I believe in a more egalitarian setup. In heavy, you can wander out as a Celt or a Burgundian knight, and the system caters for both of you. In fencing, you're stuck with a system that is designed by people who're fencing enthusiasts and doesn't really suit earlier styles. Now I know that people have fronted up in earlier personas, but they're the exception from what I can gather. Heavy combat is more 'fun orientated' over 'skill orientated', why do you really need to show a measure of skill in the off hand before you can authorise? Did Bob the Viking work just as well offhanded in the holmgangr? Nope.

Lyelf · Post by **Lyelf** » Tue Oct 02, 2001 2:28 pm

I havwe never handled a fiberglas blade that balanced like steel. It is just too light.

Yeah, a schlager can do finger cuts like a fencing saber safely, but doing a full wrist molinet like a 18th or 19th century saber manual will break a collar bone or a finger. Even through 4 oz leather you can crack a rib.

And when you have a fighter with ten years of rattan experience, one mistake is all you need. We were practicing Saviolo with Del Tins and we had to stop practicing the cuts.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Wed Oct 10, 2001 2:33 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lyelf:
I havwe never handled a fiberglas blade that balanced like steel. It is just too light.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you're interested, gentlemen, the sport of la canne uses this as a compromise. La canne came from both walking cane and french sabre practice. Rather than using a full-weight cane, which would cripple one very quickly, they use very, very lightweight canes -- but stipulate that the blade must be chambered behind the line of the shoulder between blows. [after-post clarification: this forces the sportsman to simulate the actual chamber that the full-weight cane would require while fighting.]

The net effect is to get rid of the fly-fishing so often see in sabre tournaments, while heightening questions of distance and timing: it is a common move, for example, to countercut the back of a man's shoulder while he cuts down at your head, which is a skill/timing move if there ever was one. It makes for a highly intellectual, footwork-intensive, fast sport, and MIGHT be something you'd like to look into. I can easily see such a notion adapting to most of the weapons you're thinking of for the period (with the obvious problem of spears...). I routinely carry a few stripes here and there, but it's otherwise almost totally harmless.

I have been out of the loop for a while, and am likely to stay out of the loop for a longer while (I was recently accepted as a closed-door gung-fu student, which means that my ass is grass if I'm not putting in two hours a day over and above my regular training), but am already committed to presenting at the Midwest Fencer's gig this weekend, and I'd be happy to bring up a couple of light dowels if anybody attending is interested in trying to adapt the system to their own needs.

[This message has been edited by Russ Mitchell (edited 10-10-2001).]

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Thu Oct 11, 2001 1:47 pm

Russ,
would you want to do up a few sketches and a paragraph or several for "The Red Kaganate"??

If you're not much for drawing, give me some stick figure ideas and I'll do the sketches.

It sounds interesting.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Thu Oct 11, 2001 2:10 pm

Sure. No problem. Though there are la canne sources on the web. I'll do you up some stick figures...

I'm doing you up a word file, I'll send it over. Yer lucky, it's a slow day today...

[This message has been edited by Russ Mitchell (edited 10-11-2001).]

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Thu Oct 11, 2001 2:59 pm

you can add some URLs to that word file then,
I'll add them in.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Thu Oct 11, 2001 4:36 pm

Sent to your operamail addy.

There will be a presentation at WMAW in your very own hometown btw.....

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Thu Oct 11, 2001 4:56 pm

Grr,
don't rub it in ...I had to opt out of attending.

...will check e-mail

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Bob H · Post by **Bob H** » Thu Oct 11, 2001 5:05 pm

Please announce when it's up and where you put it, Norman, (or email me if it's not too much trouble), I'm very interested in it.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Thu Oct 11, 2001 5:39 pm

Here it is, unpolished and prior to getting permission for the pic.
http://www.geocities.com/kaganate/canefnc.html

It will, once I get permission (assuming they give it to me) be linked from
http://www.geocities.com/kaganate/weapons.html

You may be interested in an article or two that's there now.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 11:13 am

After digesting the article a little bit --

Russ,
Trying to understand what you mean by "chambering" --
Is the jist of it to allow only mouline (sp?) cuts whatever the weapon?

a couple of doubts that strike me -
1) safety issue -
as a one-time Saber fencer, I can tell you that a substantial amount of force is possilbe even with the very light blade used for modern fencing. ...enough to break something or at the very least put a guy out of commission for a good while.
I suspect this is why the SCA disallows ANY Saber cuts -- even more so the full wind-up mouline.
The problem of Duke Hard Hat picking up a Saber are, if I understand the proposal correctly, exacerbated rather than helped.

2) artificiality -
This is the problem of Foil wielding SCAdians trying to do DiGrassi (or I33, or any other period manual) techniques suitable for essentially a Longsword.
You now have the fighter fighting against the dynamics of his own weapon.

I suppose that with a light dowel simuliating a mace or Chekan (Fokos), the analogy is more like trying period techniques with a Schlager,
but I don't know whether this sort of game will work for simulating the sword.

...Hmn,
obviously experimentation would be necessary but,
perhaps modified la canne type canes as maces and axes in the same game where Schlagers are used for swords??

It looks like the La Canne guys are using fencing gear for protection??

Perhaps pairing it in the Red Kaganate's "un-restricted Schlager" ( http://www.geocities.com/kaganate/rulessft.html#fshlag )??

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 11:37 am

Is the jist of it to allow only mouline (sp?) cuts whatever the weapon?

Nope. Playing just last night I caught a guy with two cross-handed overhead shots with a slight gap in timing between the two. But the hand has to come backwards, that's what prevents the "flicky-game."

I suspect this is why the SCA disallows ANY Saber cuts -- even more so the full wind-up mouline.

I suspect this is regional. Rex Ansteorra here had no problem with me throwing something from a moulinet. Oh, hell, I have loaner armour I need to return to him...

The problem of Duke Hard Hat picking up a Saber are, if I understand the proposal correctly, exacerbated rather than helped.

Your call. the point is that the weapon has so little mass that you basically never get more than a mild stripe. And if a little red line on your skin scares you, you have no place to be playing a combat game.

2) artificiality -

any time you have two people hitting each other for sport, as opposed to bloodshed, you have artificiality. I love to throw ganchos, and they're illegal as hell in American boxing.

I suppose that with a light dowel simuliating a mace or Chekan (Fokos), the analogy is more like trying period techniques with a Schlager,
[/QUOTE]

well, I put this whole thing out with the idea of that guy's fibreglass simulators... a schlager would hurt.

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 12:54 pm

I suspect this is why the SCA disallows ANY Saber cuts -- even more so the full wind-up mouline.
I suspect this is regional. Rex Ansteorra here had no problem with me throwing something from a moulinet.

I meant in "non-armoured" fighting (ie: foil, epee, schlager). I think I've at his point read all (or certainly most) the kingdom rules. The East allowes the largest variety of attacks, none allow any sort of chopping cut (not even the lightest saber "flick")

The problem of Duke Hard Hat picking up a Saber are, if I understand the proposal correctly, exacerbated rather than helped.
Your call. the point is that the weapon has so little mass that you basically never get more than a mild stripe. And if a little red line on your skin scares you, you have no place to be playing a combat game.

I think I misunderstood. I thought you were proposing similar rules to Canne while using a fencing weapon.
If this is the case, with a Saber (a foil is virtualy the same) I can easily cause far more than a stripe on a fully protected (for Olympic fencing) opponent ...and I'm more like a Squire Pell (or maybe Page Pell) than a Duke Hard-Hat-Hamfists.

2) artificiality -
any time you have two people hitting each other for sport, as opposed to bloodshed, you have artificiality.

True enough. It's a matter of levels though.
As per my example, trying to keep to period sword techniques with a foil is just silly.
Doing period sword techniques with a Schlager, however, works quite well, even though it is still substantially lighter.

Thus the statement you quoted below:

I suppose that with a light dowel simuliating a mace or Chekan (Fokos), the analogy is more like trying period techniques with a Schlager
well, I put this whole thing out with the idea of that guy's fibreglass simulators... a schlager would hurt.

I meant to say that (think SAT) -
Canne Dowel is to a light mace or Fokos
the same as
A) Foil is to a Longsword
B) Schlager is to a Longsword

and the answer is B - presumably

Yes? No?
Comment on that final note of mine from the previous post:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
obviously experimentation would be necessary but, perhaps modified la canne type canes as maces and axes (Edit: with la canne striking rules End Edit) in the same game where Schlagers (Edit: with their own striking rules End Edit) are used for swords??
It looks like the La Canne guys are using fencing gear for protection??
Perhaps pairing it in the Red Kaganate's "un-restricted Schlager" ( http://www.geocities.com/kaganate/rulessft.html#fshlag )??
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

[This message has been edited by Norman (edited 10-12-2001).]

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Oct 12, 2001 2:57 pm

With lightweight weapons of whatever sort is desired by said group, using la canne striking rules, modified per common sense.

the guy's whole point was not to get restrictive and legalistic, Norm....

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:08 pm

the guy's whole point was not to get restrictive and legalistic, Norm....

Um,
sorry guys.
With my training and experience,
hard to avoid that sometimes.

...and your idea, Russ, is intriguing, so I been running with it a bit.

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Joe Skeesick · Post by **Joe Skeesick** » Mon Oct 15, 2001 3:31 pm

So long as Russ isn't allowed to have metal quillions on his sword I'm up for damn near any set of rules. He's dangerous.

J

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Oct 19, 2001 11:55 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>So long as Russ isn't allowed to have metal quillions on his sword I'm up for damn near any set of rules. He's dangerous.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm having a slow day today, piddling around the fora, and what do I see? Janos, taking a cheap shot at me just because I was nice enough to let him smack himself in the face with MY weapon.... [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] AFTER I've already let him manchette me in the face...

Lyelf · Post by **Lyelf** » Thu Oct 25, 2001 5:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Russ Mitchell:

I'm having a slow day today, piddling around the fora, and what do I see? Janos, taking a cheap shot at me just because I was nice enough to let him smack himself in the face with MY weapon.... [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] AFTER I've already let him manchette me in the face...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Enlighten me as to what you mean by manchette.
I know manchette from 19th century swordplay (Particularly Burtons <A HREF="http://ejmas.com/jnc/jncart_burtonnewsword_0200.htm" TARGET=_blank>A
New System of Sword Excercise for Infantry</A>). Their it comes from the German and refers to a cut to the forearm to disable and disarm an opponent.

Russ Mitchell · Post by **Russ Mitchell** » Fri Oct 26, 2001 11:01 am

Lyelf: you do know your stuff. This is not the fencing term, but rather from savate. It refers to a kind of full-body backfist striking with the fist, wrist, or outer forearm.

So, basically, he punched me, and then he smacked himself in the face with my quillons while disarming me. Very strange boy, that Janos...

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Fri Oct 26, 2001 11:49 am

What about the new sideswording rules that are experimental SCA wide??

It allows striking and full draw cuts etc....

have you all heard of that??

Maunikar · Post by **Maunikar** » Fri Oct 26, 2001 12:18 pm

Not experimental. Approved, as I hear it. The Middle has adopted those rules, as they have been adopted at the Society level.

I'm...nervous, but anxious. I wish this move would've come once I have a couple more years of fencing under my belt. I'd feel more comfortable experimenting with it then.<hr>Stephen atte Smythe - <img src="http://junior.apk.net/~jdub/pics/OotA.gif" align=center border=0> - The Lycaeum Appendix
When I bite into a York Peppermint Patty, I get the sensation of a cold wind blowing through my chain mail...

Norman · Post by **Norman** » Fri Oct 26, 2001 12:38 pm

Please elaborate.

Where do I find a description of this????

------------------
Norman J. Finkelshteyn
Armour of the Silk Road - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505
The Silk Road Designs Armoury - http://www.enteract.com/~silkroad
Jewish Warriors - http://www.geocities.com/jewishwarriors
The Red Kaganate - http://www.geocities.com/kaganate
silkroad@spam.operamail.com (remove "spam" from e-mail to make it work)

Maunikar · Post by **Maunikar** » Fri Oct 26, 2001 12:50 pm

I was going to hold off saying anything until I had more information, since I knew you would want link.

As far as I can tell, none of the information has been online yet.

It also should have been too late for this issue of the Pale, but I can check the next issue.

A quick check turned up this page:
http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wew/fencing/sca/sca-sidesword.html

Its home site directed me to the group livre_de_combat at www.yahoogroups.com

They seem to be the people organising this movement, and I'd highly recommend that those reading/participating in this thread go check it out.

I'd like to point out that I WAS WRONG above. It is still experimental. According to the post "SCA Sidesword Policy" on the above group:
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Currently the only Kingdoms authorized to be part of the sidesword program and that are allowed to do sidesword practice under the SCA umbrella are Atenveldt, An Tir, The Middle, and Artemesia.

I must stress that the cut off date for the Society is 1600 so anything past that is out of period no matter what people want to think. This being the case the sidesword experiment was set up to allow for combat in a historical style of the 16th C. From 1500 until approximately 1580 the primary sword employed was called by the Italians the spada da lato or in English sidesword. The sidesword experiment was set up so this period form of combat ala Marozzo and di Grassi (and other masters of the time) could
be studied and performed. Plain and simple. Adding in backsword is not
part of the experiment and although I teach it and like it, it will not be part of the program.

And a warning, any Kingdom that is on the program that goes outside the scope of the experiment (i.e. doing backsword, longsword or any other combat form that is not sidesword as "part" of the program) may be removed from the experimental program.

Meistr Gwylym<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It appears that this is a 'first step' movement. If this is a success, I could easily see the early limit being pushed back further, even into the transitional-period unarmoured manuals. Quite a cool idea, IMHO. We'll see how the rules work out.<hr>Stephen atte Smythe - <img src="http://junior.apk.net/~jdub/pics/OotA.gif" align=center border=0> - The Lycaeum Appendix
When I bite into a York Peppermint Patty, I get the sensation of a cold wind blowing through my chain mail...