is this technique a legal shot?

[Cailin]

I was working on the pell tonight, and I came up with something I thought might be effective.

Its a simple wrap fient to a face shot. But instead of being a whipped shot, it would be a bunch, with the basket hilt going to the side of the head. (clearing the side, not impacting it) and the sword blade contacting over the nasal, about 8-12 inches above the guard.

It feels really solid against the pell. But would you take exception to being hit so? Fwiw, I've been hit like that with hafts plenty, and shields a few times, in the hands of over enthusiastic new folk, and I wouldn't mind taking such a shot.

What are your thoughts on it?

Add it to the tool box, or dirty pool?

Thanks for your time,

Cailin

[Maeryk]

Totally legal, and actually, pretty common.

As long as you aren't hitting an illegal target area, or hitting with the basket.. you are good to go.

[Corby de la Flamme]

Round here we call this a short stem blow and yes it is perfectly legal.

There are no illegal SCA blows if you're hitting with a striking surface. All problems are either illegal target areas, bad technique, unwise technique (that will injure the person throwing the blow) and/or excessive force.

[losthelm]

Just make sure its the rattan that contacts the helm.

The dents in my 12 guage spun dome came from basket hilts with a symalir technique.

[herrhauptmann]

I was working on the pell tonight, and I came up with something I thought might be effective.

Its a simple wrap fient to a face shot. But instead of being a whipped shot, it would be a bunch, with the basket hilt going to the side of the head. (clearing the side, not impacting it) and the sword blade contacting over the nasal, about 8-12 inches above the guard.
It feels really solid against the pell. But would you take exception to being hit so? Fwiw, I've been hit like that with hafts plenty, and shields a few times, in the hands of over enthusiastic new folk, and I wouldn't mind taking such a shot.

Would you mind re-describing that shot? It sounds like it might be a useful shot to add into my pell/slow work. But I guess my vocab for fighting is a little weak, so I'm having a hard time visualizing the shot you've described.

[Maeryk]

I was working on the pell tonight, and I came up with something I thought might be effective.

Its a simple wrap fient to a face shot. But instead of being a whipped shot, it would be a bunch, with the basket hilt going to the side of the head. (clearing the side, not impacting it) and the sword blade contacting over the nasal, about 8-12 inches above the guard.
It feels really solid against the pell. But would you take exception to being hit so? Fwiw, I've been hit like that with hafts plenty, and shields a few times, in the hands of over enthusiastic new folk, and I wouldn't mind taking such a shot.

Would you mind re-describing that shot? It sounds like it might be a useful shot to add into my pell/slow work. But I guess my vocab for fighting is a little weak, so I'm having a hard time visualizing the shot you've described.

Fake arm move like you are going to throw a wrap (head wrap, I'm assuming) but instead, flip the sword in and down, and punch through, with the sword parallel to your shoulders, into his grill.


kinda like throwing an offside leg, but higher.. and more punch, less whip.

[Cailin]

Maeryk's got what I mean.

I'll do better than describe it, I'll video tape it this weekend.

Of course, then you guys can all have a laugh at my 'form'.

Cailin

[Mrmiles]

Round these hear parts in the west kingdom we call it a short stick.
everytime i land one my knight walks in a circle and either a. rubs his head or b. rubs his pockets. lol

[Vlasta]

I've hit a couple of folks with that shot. It either lands as a "push" and doesn't have much impact, or tends to rock their world. The latter is due, I think, to there being not nearly as much flex in the blade that close to the hilt as farther out. The only time I broke someone glasses inside their helm was a shot that landed like that.

[Mord]

That shots been done for years, or variations of that shot been done for years. However, be careful...the impact can affect your shoulder.

Mord.

[Kilkenny]

That shots been done for years, or variations of that shot been done for years. However, be careful...the impact can affect your shoulder.

Mord.

All of our sword techniques can affect your shoulder. Punch techniques should be very minimal in that regard, so long as you have some flex in the elbow through contact. Lock out the elbow at/during impact and you may not notice the shoulder damage because of the pain in your elbow - but both are suffering.

To the OP, which side of your opponent is your hand on at impact ?

And yes, perfectly legal technique, just don't punch them in the face with the basket, or the shoulder (which can happen while focused on not hitting their face...)

[raito]

All of our sword techniques can affect your shoulder. Punch techniques should be very minimal in that regard, so long as you have some flex in the elbow through contact.

... And assuming your punching mechanics are good. I see a lot of people trying to do this sort of thing with their hand outside their shoulder, instead of in line with it. That tears things up a lot, and reduces power.

[Cailin]

Right hand, to the left side of opponents head.

I studied shotokan for five years pretty intensively, so I more or less know how to throw a punch. I'm sure practice will improve the mechanic if I get it slotted in correctly.

Cailin

[Saritor]

Unsurprisingly, this can be found in Meyer's section on dussack, described in slightly different terminology.

[lochinvar76]

I've done that same thing single handed with a greatsword when the opportunity was there and it was do or die. The best part is the look of shock in their face after you rock their helmet back.

I agree though, be careful with it. It's one of those techniques that can go wrong and hurt someone. A misplaced quillon or baskethilt to the point of the shoulder or an unpadded collarbone... yeowch.

[DukeAvery]

I tried for awhile using a shot I call a 'slap shot' with a spear. I'd start with the spear pointing up at a high angle and slap a shield down then thrust hard.

Most fighters didn't like it, even though it was legal. It was generally effective. I stopped using it however, because overall I thought it made the day's fighting less fun rather than more.

Maybe that applies here, maybe it doesn't.

Regards

Avery

[Kilkenny]

Right hand, to the left side of opponents head.

I studied shotokan for five years pretty intensively, so I more or less know how to throw a punch. I'm sure practice will improve the mechanic if I get it slotted in correctly.

Cailin

That comes across as being pretty defensive. Please don't be.

The mechanics of throwing a punch empty handed and with a stick are not the same. It's not really practical to try and explain them in text, but holding onto the end of a lever and torquing it around has an impact on what you do and how you do it.

[Donal Mac Ruiseart]

Right hand, to the left side of opponents head.

Hmmm . . . "right" and "left" always confuses me when talking of this sort of subject. Is the "right" in this case the thrower's right or the target's right? With the sword hand palm up or palm down?

[Cailin]

That comes across as being pretty defensive. Please don't be.

The mechanics of throwing a punch empty handed and with a stick are not the same. It's not really practical to try and explain them in text, but holding onto the end of a lever and torquing it around has an impact on what you do and how you do it.

Whoops! No, not defensive at all. There's a lot to this game, so i was just trying to assure people I'm not spaghetti noodling or anything like that. I love feedback, and was just trying to add information.

To elaborate, in the course of my studies, I did have some some weapons training, Sai in particular. While its not a direct translation or anything like that, I've gone through the process of learning how a weapon responds to body movements and what not. What I meant by getting it slotted in was I was doing a lot of slow work looking at how the sword traveled and where my mechanics needed to be for an effective blow.

Sorry to anyone who took my comment as defensive or truculent.

Cailin

[Kilkenny]

Right hand, to the left side of opponents head.

Hmmm . . . "right" and "left" always confuses me when talking of this sort of subject. Is the "right" in this case the thrower's right or the target's right? With the sword hand palm up or palm down?

I'm assuming (I know) that he's referring to his right and his opponent's left. I'm jumping to this conclusion due to the reference to shotokan, and presuming that he's effectively throwing a reverse punch.

But, it's always possible that I am misinterpreting. It has happened before

[Cailin]

Right hand, to the left side of opponents head.

Hmmm . . . "right" and "left" always confuses me when talking of this sort of subject. Is the "right" in this case the thrower's right or the target's right? With the sword hand palm up or palm down?

Okay. I'm right handed. The shot starts looking like a head wrap. So for me, that's coming out with the sword at about a 45 degree angle away from centerline, tip up and out. As the blow transitions to the 'punch', The tip and sword rotate inwards. If the sword did not exist, my right hand would continue past my opponent's left ear. The blow finishes looking much like a punch, with the palm facing down, torso rotated, shoulder engaged. In practice, its coming out like a descending hook, since its coming from where the wrap feint ends.

I'll tape it saturday or sunday, as time and homework allow.

Cailin

[zippy]

sounds pretty standard to me
where you living that you would worry about that sort of thing
any knights in your region
zip

[Cailin]

I live in a corner of Aethelmaerc surrounded by atlantia. And, while there are no members of the Chivalry, there are fighters whose skill and demeanor I consider to be knightly. Its just that we've been under crippling snow this winter, and I've had to attend to mundane things, etc. We haven't had a fighter practice since January, or maybe early February.

So, when ever I come up with an idea that I've never run across in a fight before, I submit it to the hive mind to see what everyone thinks of it, in the name of avoiding bad times.

Incidentally, Sir Zippy, I've got pictures of a bout between us from about 5 or 6 years ago if you're interested. It was my second tournament bout ever.

Cailin

[zippy]

awesome man
my email is zippydclown@hotmail.com
i would love to see pics

i get spoiled year round fighter practices in AZ
and we have dukes and a bunch of knights that come out
the group of people i spend time with do a lot of talking about fighting

have fun
zip

[Cailin]

I remember and pine for those days! My first three years in the SCA were in BTY. My first camping event was highlands war. St. Patrick's day demo downtown, the dragon tournament, sable knight, bar maids, great helm, estrella...

You guys have it good.

[zippy]

great helm is tomorrow