The Armour Archive

Ulric wrote:However, at least from some(chiv) that I've spoken to, taking legs as kills is "not how the game is played" and would greatly hurt such a person's chance of elevation- which makes me sad- I am glad that not all think that way.

Personally, anyone electing to do that would get my support in the Circle (assuming he or she was a likely candidate in all other respects). Such a person would be attempting, by employing a more realistic convention, to become a better swordfighter, not just better at the game/sport of stick tag.

That view is not, of course, unanimous among the chiv. In fact, a not-inconsiderable contingent in this kingdom (An Tir) seem to be of the opinion that the top priority of a person seeking a belt should be to work at the sport aspect of this game (and travel constantly...but that's a separate issue).

Dafydd wrote:

Ulric wrote:However, at least from some(chiv) that I've spoken to, taking legs as kills is "not how the game is played" and would greatly hurt such a person's chance of elevation- which makes me sad- I am glad that not all think that way.

Personally, anyone electing to do that would get my support in the Circle (assuming he or she was a likely candidate in all other respects). Such a person would be attempting, by employing a more realistic convention, to become a better swordfighter, not just better at the game/sport of stick tag.

That view is not, of course, unanimous among the chiv. In fact, a not-inconsiderable contingent in this kingdom (An Tir) seem to be of the opinion that the top priority of a person seeking a belt should be to work at the sport aspect of this game (and travel constantly...but that's a separate issue).

Really? I am surprised by this. I guess I hadn't thought about that so much and never saw it as an issue. I do not know for certain but I would think that most of the chiv that I am familiar and on a friendly basis with are of like mind. I don't think I could point out a knight that I know that would have a problem with a fighter on any chivalric level if he chose to accept leg shots as a loss. I would think most knights would automatically assume the fighter had a good reason for doing so and would not question them fo playing the game using a more difficult method of blow acceptance. I have chosen to just accept legs or arms as losses in practice and in pick ups. For tourney I have normally opted to just be annoyed at myself for poor defense and take the penalty of reduced mobilty and sore knees so that I may continue and try to make up for my initial failure with a chance at victory from a disadvantaged position.

It has never seemed odd to me for a fighter to choose either option at his/her leisure for whatever reason they might have.

dukelogan wrote:how about:...

I'm in for most of this. I usually disguise my modern chair and I feel bad about it when I forget. I like bridge fights with landscape timbers nailed deeply to the ground and blue tarp "water" so there is no question about who stepped in it.

My objections:

fighting with unpadded polearms,

My unpadded glaive looks as close as I can get it to a leaf-bladed cutting spear. I've tried making a padded version and it comes out looking like a canoe paddle. A split rattan option would be great but is not allowed in my kingdom as I understand it.

And...

oh, and no hitting the logan....... ever.....

Which eliminates one of my fondest memories of a pick-up fight at Gulf Wars. I'm not giving that one up!

Meanwhile I'll look into sponsoring a tiny tourney at our local practice with the Vitus rule set, just to see how it goes.

And Your Excellency's position is laudable.

However, this is exactly the problem that I perceive with the system.. unless someone can take direct action to start the debate, then there are MANY people who will be forced, in effect, to either handicap themselves in one manner or another, or keep doing things the "traditional" way.

Think about it.. Starry-Eyed The Noob of An-Tir, comes out and sees Sir Magnificent the Very Shiny and Duke Glorious the Unstoppable talking about "How we play the game", perhaps with disapproval in Their voices, do you think that he feels he "has an option" of doing things differently?

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:Sean, unfortunately "armour as worn" WOULD break the rules in favour of late-period guys- to the point of making it useless for nearly anyone else to try and fight them. Which is where we run into a balance between outright accuracy and keeping it fun.

Which is why I prefaced my comments with 'If someone asked me'. Actually someone did ask me, Aaron. The two of us plan on having some counted blow fun in mid-April:

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB2/ ... p?t=114103

How much a rule is broken and in which direction depends entirely on perspective. One could say right now that it is broken in favor of minamilist safety gear selected to provide maximum sporting advantage. I'm not making that argument. I'm going out to play my game as best I can with the gear that I want. If someone is willing to fight me armor as worn, I'll accept. If someone is willing to fight me Cot30 rules, I'll accept. If someone is willing to fight me Sir Vitus/Duke Logan rules, I'll accept. If someone is willing to fight me basic SCA rules only then I will decide to yield to a leg shot based on a lot of factors for the day... but of the four this is my least prefered format. I'm 37 and my knees belong to a geriatric old man.

I don't know everyone who is on the AA by sight and not everyone who would favor this rules set is on the AA. It would be nice to have a little badge or similar indicating a willingness to use an alternate rule set. It would make identifying people easier so each did not assume that the other was inherantly biased towards the generic rule set. You never know wearing a green garter or some other badge and fighting in a different rule set might become 'trendy' with the hip active crowd.

Sean

My Queer/Leather Fetish friends would call this "flagging"... advertising what you do/are into by displaying a complex array of bandanas on your person.

Green scarf on right leg means I fight counted blows, armour as worn. Left leg means simply counted "stout" blows.

Blue scarf right arm: paired weapons only, please. left arm: paired pole-arms only.

and so on...

Mind you, as we DO have a large number of fetishists in the SCA, things could get REALLY confusing really fast... especially with all the leather armour involved.

Beat you to it - as a result of basically this same discussion on the AA 6 years ago I think:

http://www.historiccombat.org/in_modo.html

fter three decades of researching and recreating "knightly" foot combat within the context of SCA tournaments, our understanding of how tournaments on foot were held has widened considerably. There is a greater general understanding about what armour was worn, the weapons that were usually employed and the appearance of noble combatants on the field than ever before. Today it is possible to go to many tournaments and observe combatants in highly accurate recreations of arms and armour of a particular time period. Dedicated individuals have driven this movement, finding that, to them, combat in more historical armour is both more enjoyable and more fulfilling, while benefiting all who attend our tourneys by deepening the medieval experience.
Over the past decade, we have also found many ways in which our actual combats can be safely brought closer to the experiences of noble knights and squires we seek to emulate. Whether through such conventions as counted blows(1), armour as worn(2), or others, many of our combatants have found that combat in a more historical manner is more satisfying and enjoyable to them. The difficulty has been that unlike historical armour, historical combat must of needs be a shared experience, and finding an opponent of the same mind is often a greater challenge than the bout itself.

We ask that those who would like to indicate their willingness to fight in a more historical fashion, wear the motto, "In modo antiquo," (In the ancient manner) visibly on their person, so that any seeing you may know your desire to fight in a more historical fashion.

We ask that any who would wear this motto abide by the following items:

To always fight with honor and without rancor.

To judge whether it is necessary to ask the permission of the sponsor of the tourney to fight with different rules, and if it is necessary, to request for permission from the sponsor, and abide by their decision.

To come to clear agreement with my opponent on the rules that will be used in the bout.

To inform the marshal observing the bout of the rules to be used.

To declare, or cause to be declared, the rules of the bout to the crowd attending.

To never wear the motto in such a way as to appear to claim rank or title which have not been earned.

We shall call all those who choose to display our motto our comrades, and together endeavor to strive for excellence in the honorable and ancient skills of arms.

(Any who wish to display the motto need only abide by items.

By the way I"m not actually here, I'm supposed to be completing two huge papers, while volunteering, while looking for a job...

I'll throw in my support for the Duke Logan-Sir Vitus system.

I don't mind knee fighting, but the Sir Vitus system just seems more appealing.

I'm training for Dragonslayer (baronial championship) this year, by the Grace of the Gods... If I get it, the next few baronial tourneys will be in this format.

Count Johnathan wrote:

Dafydd wrote:

Ulric wrote:However, at least from some(chiv) that I've spoken to, taking legs as kills is "not how the game is played" and would greatly hurt such a person's chance of elevation- which makes me sad- I am glad that not all think that way.

Personally, anyone electing to do that would get my support in the Circle (assuming he or she was a likely candidate in all other respects). Such a person would be attempting, by employing a more realistic convention, to become a better swordfighter, not just better at the game/sport of stick tag.

That view is not, of course, unanimous among the chiv. In fact, a not-inconsiderable contingent in this kingdom (An Tir) seem to be of the opinion that the top priority of a person seeking a belt should be to work at the sport aspect of this game (and travel constantly...but that's a separate issue).

Really? I am surprised by this. I guess I hadn't thought about that so much and never saw it as an issue. I do not know for certain but I would think that most of the chiv that I am familiar and on a friendly basis with are of like mind. I don't think I could point out a knight that I know that would have a problem with a fighter on any chivalric level if he chose to accept leg shots as a loss. I would think most knights would automatically assume the fighter had a good reason for doing so and would not question them fo playing the game using a more difficult method of blow acceptance. I have chosen to just accept legs or arms as losses in practice and in pick ups. For tourney I have normally opted to just be annoyed at myself for poor defense and take the penalty of reduced mobilty and sore knees so that I may continue and try to make up for my initial failure with a chance at victory from a disadvantaged position.

It has never seemed odd to me for a fighter to choose either option at his/her leisure for whatever reason they might have.

Ah, forgive me: I was unclear. I'm not sure if any of the Chivalry here in An Tir would actually hold it against a fighter who elected to accept blows to the extremities as fight-ending. I suspect that many, even among the more hardcore sportfighting advocates, would respect such a person. As you say, they've elected to make things more difficult for themselves, to reduce their margin for error.

What I meant to say was that there are a good many members of the An Tir Chivalry who seem to feel that the only legit path to knighthood lies in pursuing the sportfighting aspect as the fighter's unquestioned top priority. Some might view the blow-counting practice above as an indication that the person wasn't sufficiently "serious" about tournament results, but I suspect most would not.

Again, sorry for not writing clearly!

Daffyd: Some might also view it as "cockiness, arrogance, hoity-toityness," etc.

Others might just shrug, grin and shoot for the leg to rack up the nothces on the tourney tile.

I can't think of anyone in particular, and wouldn't name names if I could, but there are those EVERYWHERE who are either so set in their ways that all else is the Devil's path, or who are simply content to capitalize (as is their right, by our rules- my choices should not handicap my opponent, after all).

Again, I just don't see alternative methods of blow acknowledgement having a chance if those of us who care don't try to level the playing field from the Established and Orthodox Way.

If I had a cathedral, I'd nail these resolutions to its door.

As someone who takes legs as kills, I like this response best. it teaches me to block my legs better.

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:
Others might just shrug, grin and shoot for the leg to rack up the nothces on the tourney tile.

All of this is rather interesting, I am currently recovering from shoulder surgery and as such have a forced extended break in fighting. This means I am watching more fights then I would like to and the whole leg shot issue is painfully apparent. It looks ridiculous and to some fighters it is a boon rather than a penalty , worse still is if the other fighter decides to take their own leg to match their combatant then you get a static display resembling two bull walrus having a go.

I will run some of these rules ideas past the combatants of the Barony, they would certainly be good for a tournament here and there as it would mean less standing around for them and would preserve some of the nicer kits legs (and surcoats from people throwing themselves about the ground in death throws).

But I don't think I could in good conscience make it a norm. Although we only have one fellow who is actively pursuing crown at the moment, the hope for the future is more. And to throw a "Barony" special around tournaments would mean that I could be doing them a disservice when they go off to fight in crown lists.

Until your guy wins crown and makes it norm for one reign

Personally, unless I accidentally drop cause that is what I've been trained to do, I'll never take a knee again.


My right knee is blown... from soccer... from sca knee fighting... hell, who the fuck knows... could be from masterbation... but regardless, all I know is I'm 35, and taking meds for folks who normally get it around 65.... just to kill the pain, and allow me to walk normally.

I'll not be taking a knee at all, ever... and it doesn't bother me...

Way I figure it, is, I'll either adapt and survive, or not...

I'm cool with it...

But, its just "good!" and fall over from this point on...

Leg or whatnot...

Either way... no worries... its just a dumb game, that for some stretch of the imagination, that I really love...

I think this thread proves the point I made. There just is not the ground swell of people wanting the chage. Pretty much the same handful of people are posting here. You don't see a mass of people from all over supporting it. When the mass wants the change it may change.

Pesoanlly I like Vitus's idea but would love to see it in play, use it, and see how it works. I have arthritis in my ankles so standing or knee fighting hurts the same.

I don't lose any sleep over fighting from my knees.

Vebrand

Vebrand wrote:I think this thread proves the point I made. There just is not the ground swell of people wanting the chage. Pretty much the same handful of people are posting here. You don't see a mass of people from all over supporting it. When the mass wants the change it may change.

Whether this is correct or not, groundswells of support do not 'just happen'. It always starts with a few motivated (crazy) people. Show people it looks better, doesn't detract from the game, is simple, and - most of all - fun, and see where it leads.

Vebrand wrote:I think this thread proves the point I made. There just is not the ground swell of people wanting the chage. Pretty much the same handful of people are posting here. You don't see a mass of people from all over supporting it. When the mass wants the change it may change.

Pesoanlly I like Vitus's idea but would love to see it in play, use it, and see how it works. I have arthritis in my ankles so standing or knee fighting hurts the same.

I don't lose any sleep over fighting from my knees.

Vebrand

Also, there might not be groundswells because very few people understand that there ARE other ways.

My local Barony fights every Tuesday (and every other Sunday) in a gym whose floor is basically like your typical rush-job sidewalk.
My household has private practices during the winter in a different gym (on alternate Sundays) where the church staff doesn't want the floor massacred by assjacks flopping around in armour. Many of our local fighters will NOT knee fight until we go back outside in the spring.

I also got totally fed up with with going to winter events where I was forced to knee fight on concrete floors. If the floor was unpolished it scratched up my expensive knee armour, and if the floor was polished I slid around like a hockey puck every time I went to my knees.

Knee fighting and hand-switching (NOBODY EVER DOES THIS EXCEPT AT CROWN ANYWAY) are just a pain-in-the-ass that don't really serve any useful purpose.

Some traditions (not just SCA ones) are just stupid. Does it mean a person is stupid for doing it? No. Does it mean a person is stupid for wanting to retain it because of sentiment? No.

I ain't going to do it unless ORDERED to do it by somebody of greater rank. When this happens it pisses me off, but I do it.

Hang on, can someone ORDER you to fight from your knees?

I would be peeved.

-Aaron

Uh, yeah. Duke Edmund has forced me -on two seperate occasions- to fight in tourneys that I had absolutely no interest in.

He knows I will do what he asks me to do, so yes- it is a way to force me to do stuff I should do that I don't want to do.

Is this just because you are a knight?

I don't think there is anything in the rules requiring fighting from the knees, and I'll stand on principle rather than kneel to despotic whimsy.

-Aaron

If the rules of a scenario or tournament require it, you may have to fight from your knees. I think Vitus encountered such a tournament, and was compelled to participate by his sovereign and/or commander.

I can recall an Estrella where one bridge required all unbelted fighters to fight on their knees. It was at least optional as the other bridges had no such restriction. Still, it was (unsurprisingly) the least clogged bridge. Getting dust kicked directly into my face, backed up by an Estrella gale, was unpleasant but c'est la guerre.

At least one Pennsic used a variation of this scenario in the early 90s.

Personally I love the idea of no knee fighting, my wife and I got married a few years ago, and at the first practice she attended she remarked how silly the fighting from the knees looks.

I dropped out of the SCA for awhile for many reasons, one being that I had a nasty MRSA staff infection in my knee. They had to go in and remove the bursa sack from the knee cap, and scrape all the infection out and off the bone.

My knee will never be normal, and between the weird numbness in some spots, and the over sensitivity in others, I wont be kneeling when I start to play again this spring. Whether ordered to or not, its not gonna happen.

I can always bow out of the bout, and let my opponent win, if knee fighting were required. If it were required for the fighting, I would pack up my gear, get into garb (now where is my garb....?) and enjoy an afternoon of juggling in the "central square".

If I was peeved, I'd just juggle at the tournament, in armour, on the sidelines.

-Aaron

Point of "order" as it were: I know my knight can order me. I know My Sovereign can order me. I know My Prince can order me. I know My Baron can order me.

Can Duke Random Mucky-muck order me? really?

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:Point of "order" as it were: I know my knight can order me. I know My Sovereign can order me. I know My Prince can order me. I know My Baron can order me.

Can Duke Random Mucky-muck order me? really?

Vitus is talking about Peer Pressure and the good natured cajoling that takes place between members of the order. If Vitus chooses to do something he normally doesn’t like to do out of RESPECT for someone he admires, it isn’t anyone's place to judge. Everyone unclench for a moment please.

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:Point of "order" as it were: I know my knight can order me. I know My Sovereign can order me. I know My Prince can order me. I know My Baron can order me.

Can Duke Random Mucky-muck order me? really?

Well I dont think a random Duke is going to "order" you.

I can see that a marshal or marshal in charge of an event may try and order you to your knees as it is part of the "rule set". If I were struck in the leg and took it as a kill, but was told by a marshal "Hey your not dead just legged", I would explain that kneeling is not much of an option for me medically, and and instead of damaging my already screwed up knee I withdraw, with all courtesy to my opponent. If this disgualifies me from continuing in the tourney then so be it, off to do some pick up fights.

And for my two pence I also like The rule set Sir Vitus proposed.

When I get back to practices I will suggest it to my fellow fighters, especially at practice, where we normally dont lose limbs we just concede and start over.

I'm not clenched at all. I was seriosuly just wondering if a Royal Peer could, thoretically, order me to do something even if I'm not 2)resident in a territory over which they are feudal lord or b)somehow in direct fealty to them.

Is this different from kingdom to kingdom?

I would like to offer or expound on a suggestion to the original issue of knee fighting and point out or remind folks that there is a society rule set that establishes leg shots as a kill – cut and thrust. I believe Maeryk may have mentioned this earlier.

From the society rapier handbook section 4. F. ii.

ii. For cut and thrust rapier, valid blows to the leg or foot are considered incapacitating,
rendering the fighter incapable of further combat.

So, I would propose that cut and thrust solves some of the issues being presented here.

Shot to the leg or foot = dead
You can target below the knee
Switching hands is not an issue as you are either wearing a glove on both hands and/or ½ gauntlets depending on your kingdom requirements. Thus no need to stop and rearrange or ask for other equipment
You cannot be forced to fight from you knees as it would be in direct violation of society rules
I am sure there are others that I cannot think of at the moment

Now, I also understand that there are some from an earlier topic who felt that cut and thrust could be, or will be the complete death of the society and bring an end to the world. To them I would offer the following:

If cut and thrust is a chaotic and disorderly activity
Then it is part of the natural law of entropy
Entropy being a natural law comes from God and is of his will
Therefore participation in cut and thrust is Gods will

GOD WILLS IT

I would recommend that everyone should go and get your cut and thrust authorizations to keep baby Jesus from crying and to no longer have to fight from your knees.

I am firmly in favour of the Vitus Convention, I shall attempt to implement it where possible.

Knee fighting is farcical.

Methods I've used in the past to minimise it are,

Tourneys fought to the first good blow. (eg Canterbury Tourneys)

Melées in which legged and unengaged fighters are deemd to be defeated.
(A no-Brainer in unlimited Resurrection scenarios)

Let's build that Groundswell.

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:Uh, yeah. Duke Edmund has forced me -on two seperate occasions- to fight in tourneys that I had absolutely no interest in.

He knows I will do what he asks me to do, so yes- it is a way to force me to do stuff I should do that I don't want to do.

BdeB wrote:

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:Point of "order" as it were: I know my knight can order me. I know My Sovereign can order me. I know My Prince can order me. I know My Baron can order me.

Can Duke Random Mucky-muck order me? really?

Vitus is talking about Peer Pressure and the good natured cajoling that takes place between members of the order. If Vitus chooses to do something he normally doesn’t like to do out of RESPECT for someone he admires, it isn’t anyone's place to judge. Everyone unclench for a moment please.

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:I'm not clenched at all. I was seriosuly just wondering if a Royal Peer could, thoretically, order me to do something even if I'm not 2)resident in a territory over which they are feudal lord or b)somehow in direct fealty to them.

Is this different from kingdom to kingdom?

Just chiming in here as I ran into this same situation at GW from His Grace as well, but would like to point out the last line of good Sir Vitus' statement.

"He knows I will do what he asks me to do, so yes- it is a way to force me to do stuff I should do that I don't want to do."

I had just gotten done fighting the town battle and then the unlimited rez fort battle all while wearing my full 14th C. transitional harness (56# total weight). I'd flopped down on the hay bales and was enjoying resting and catching up on water. I'd finally talked myself out of doing pickup fights and instead going back for a shower and lighter clothing when his Grace clapped me on the shoulder and noted I'd been sitting on the bale since he had returned to the field and suggested I get out and fight some more.

This was totally against what I wanted to do and my body screamed I shouldn't do, but I knew in my heart I should be doing as an unbelt wanting to improve my prowess. Whining in front of a duke is unseemly and only leads to further 'remedial training' down the line so I slapped my helm back on and gathered my shield. My 1st draw was HRM Henri of AEthelmearc ... and thus my education in prowess kept going.

This is what I believe Sir Vitus was pointing at. Not forcing one to fight from ones knees but to do some things you don't want to do but should be doing.

If I might steal a quote ... 'Sometimes you get the Duke you need, not the Duke you want ...' With some it's not that they are trying to test their political clout, but rather being someone who's been there and done that along with wearing out the t-shirt who see's someone sitting on the cusp of things and just needing that nudge over the edge. It's a 'what you should be doing v. what you want to be doing' in order to achieve a goal.

What Iain said...and Bryce.

See? There are guys with f'ed up knees all OVER the place. Knee fighting must go!!! This is exactly my problem-

WHY SHOULD GUYS WITH F'ED UP KNEES NEVER GET KNIGHTED JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN'T KNEE FIGHT ANYMORE????

This this doesn't happen? Hahahahah! Think again.

Another issue that crops up. Here is the answer. How can you trust a guy who will shrug one shot to take two?

You can't trust him- he's already a cheater.

How many guys like this are there? Who knows. It's situational- the more important the fight is the less this type of guy wants to lose...he gets thicker. These people are also rare- but there are certainly some famous ones.

There are very, very few instances of outright 100% shrugging going on. If a guy is trustworthy enough to take one good blow, he's trustworthy enough to take two.

Unless he can't count that high.