The Armour Archive

http://www.ibew353.org/wsib/doc/Ergonom ... uching.pdf

It's about electricians, who undoubtedly spend a LOT more time on their knees than most of us (or not, I'm not here to judge), but the facts are still pertinent.

Conrad the Mad wrote:Personally I love the idea of no knee fighting, my wife and I got married a few years ago, and at the first practice she attended she remarked how silly the fighting from the knees looks.

I dropped out of the SCA for awhile for many reasons, one being that I had a nasty MRSA staff infection in my knee. They had to go in and remove the bursa sack from the knee cap, and scrape all the infection out and off the bone.

My knee will never be normal, and between the weird numbness in some spots, and the over sensitivity in others, I wont be kneeling when I start to play again this spring. Whether ordered to or not, its not gonna happen.

I guess it's a good thing that it's not a requirement then.

Vitus von Atzinger wrote:What Iain said...and Bryce.

See? There are guys with f'ed up knees all OVER the place. Knee fighting must go!!! This is exactly my problem-

WHY SHOULD GUYS WITH F'ED UP KNEES NEVER GET KNIGHTED JUST BECAUSE THEY CAN'T KNEE FIGHT ANYMORE????

This this doesn't happen? Hahahahah! Think again.

Another issue that crops up. Here is the answer. How can you trust a guy who will shrug one shot to take two?

You can't trust him- he's already a cheater.

How many guys like this are there? Who knows. It's situational- the more important the fight is the less this type of guy wants to lose...he gets thicker. These people are also rare- but there are certainly some famous ones.

There are very, very few instances of outright 100% shrugging going on. If a guy is trustworthy enough to take one good blow, he's trustworthy enough to take two.

Unless he can't count that high.

Sounds like you need to inform the knights that you know that Knee fighting is and has always been optional. I don't know any members of the Aten chiv who would hold it against someone that took leg shots as kills as long as they were not disrupting the fighting with bitching or complaining that the game we play is stupid etc.

Now as far as just ignoring the rules and deciding to take counted blows WITHOUT informing his/her opponent or without their opponents agreement IS cheating and not following the conventions of combat. Sorry that person would not deserve knighthood IMO.

I will note the distinction of Knowing how to do it and choosing not to is a lot different from never learning. I think you should be proficient at it because it is a part of the sport, despite how much I personally dislike it. I train that way and I teach that way.

BdeB wrote:...is a part of the sport...

Give us some time.

My squires definitely train to do it.

I just don't do it.

(okay, sometimes I do- maybe twice a year)

Just do it.

Take legs blows as kills. Or ask you opponent to fight by "Vitus Rules".

If the majority of SCA fighters think this is cool, then it will happen. It will be the "new tradition."

Frankly, it is likely the only way the small minority of SCA fighter that the Archive represents will get an idea to be accepted SCA wide.

It will take time, but like improved appearance on the field, it could happen.


.

Just my direct opinion here not in reply to any specific person.

What it sounds like is that those who are bothered by fighting from their knees should not be complaining about it or seeking to change the rules or conventions of combat. I think that the people who are bothered by knee fighting should be saying "Gee I am so glad that my feelings have been considered by our rules for the entire time that I have been in the SCA and that I have never been required by any rule or law to fight from my knees."

I understand that perhaps some folks are not aware that they are allowed to accept any blow at any time as a kill if they desire to do so. To this I say let us educate the masses. If knights are unaware of this and you are a belt that is concerned that the other knights are unaware that is what circle is for. Bring it up and educate them. If some new person says "boy that looks kind of dumb" then explain to them that it is an option to accept the penalty and continue rather than to have to take a loss because of a leg shot but choosing either is OK. I can't see how knee fighting has had any sort of negative effect on anyone at any time. If it has been bad for you then it is only due to the fact that you have allowed it to be a negative factor for you. It has never been required and never will be.

Let's find something that doesn't give options and still allows for participation like optional knee fighting does to complain about.

Count Johnathan wrote:Just my direct opinion here not in reply to any specific person.

What it sounds like is that those who are bothered by fighting from their knees should not be complaining about it or seeking to change the rules or conventions of combat. I think that the people who are bothered by knee fighting should be saying "Gee I am so glad that my feelings have been considered by our rules for the entire time that I have been in the SCA and that I have never been required by any rule or law to fight from my knees."

I understand that perhaps some folks are not aware that they are allowed to accept any blow at any time as a kill if they desire to do so. To this I say let us educate the masses. If knights are unaware of this and you are a belt that is concerned that the other knights are unaware that is what circle is for. Bring it up and educate them. If some new person says "boy that looks kind of dumb" then explain to them that it is an option to accept the penalty and continue rather than to have to take a loss because of a leg shot but choosing either is OK. I can't see how knee fighting has had any sort of negative effect on anyone at any time. If it has been bad for you then it is only due to the fact that you have allowed it to be a negative factor for you. It has never been required and never will be.

Let's find something that doesn't give options and still allows for participation like optional knee fighting does to complain about.

That's why I say hit the reset button, level the playing field and let the people choose AFTER shaking up the institutionalization of the old, broken system

As someone who doesn't like knee fighting and doesn't do it... this. Don't do it if you don't want to. If other people don't want to... they'll follow your example. if they do... they go to their knees, and you get to hit them again. Lead by example.

Count Johnathan wrote:Just my direct opinion here not in reply to any specific person.

What it sounds like is that those who are bothered by fighting from their knees should not be complaining about it or seeking to change the rules or conventions of combat. I think that the people who are bothered by knee fighting should be saying "Gee I am so glad that my feelings have been considered by our rules for the entire time that I have been in the SCA and that I have never been required by any rule or law to fight from my knees."

I understand that perhaps some folks are not aware that they are allowed to accept any blow at any time as a kill if they desire to do so. To this I say let us educate the masses. If knights are unaware of this and you are a belt that is concerned that the other knights are unaware that is what circle is for. Bring it up and educate them. If some new person says "boy that looks kind of dumb" then explain to them that it is an option to accept the penalty and continue rather than to have to take a loss because of a leg shot but choosing either is OK. I can't see how knee fighting has had any sort of negative effect on anyone at any time. If it has been bad for you then it is only due to the fact that you have allowed it to be a negative factor for you. It has never been required and never will be.

Let's find something that doesn't give options and still allows for participation like optional knee fighting does to complain about.

I have to admit that I am more activist than this, though i respect yours and Count Jonathan's suggestions.

Unfortunately, as I said, I see the current balance to be so set against change that I am willing to take more... direct... action to have the conversation get its due of attention.

Just how I roll.

Franchise.

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:

BdeB wrote:...is a part of the sport...

Give us some time.

Remember it's not the first arm of the Windmill you have to watch out for....

Yes, milord.


I do realize that I tend to follow the steps of some another, better-known Hidalgo...

I'll be careful.

But that is the entire point. No change is required. Perhaps some additional education for some who are unaware of their options but the rules already allow you to avoid fighting from your knees ever for any reason. You even have the option of requesting counted leg blows so that you get more than one chance at victory even if you fail to block. Because this is a sport of Chivalry and honor often in tourney your opponent will even offer you to keep the limb and then everyone hails an act of chivalry which is also good for the game. It works well and always has.

Now if the intent is to do away with Knee fighting altogether as an option that is just selfish and would possible negatively affect others enjoyment of the sport.

Such is the same response I get when I suggest doing away with other things that annoy me that I have allowed to negatively affect my game. However that which I dislike does not provide me with any option other than to avoid participation when it is in play.

Count Johnathan wrote:But that is the entire point. No change is required. Perhaps some additional education for some who are unaware of their options but the rules already allow you to avoid fighting from your knees ever for any reason. You even have the option of requesting counted leg blows so that you get more than one chance at victory even if you fail to block. Because this is a sport of Chivalry and honor often in tourney your opponent will even offer you to keep the limb and then everyone hails an act of chivalry which is also good for the game. It works well and always has.

Now if the intent is to do away with Knee fighting altogether as an option that is just selfish and would possible negatively affect others enjoyment of the sport.

Such is the same response I get when I suggest doing away with other things that annoy me that I have allowed to negatively affect my game. However that which I dislike does not provide me with any option other than to avoid participation when it is in play.

I must again respectfully disagree with Your Excellency (and apologize for getting a little heated, earlier).

As it stands now, the weight is overwhelmingly on the side of knee fighting. If that keeps up, a few guys quietly and unassumingly saying "I'd like to try this" won't get the job of levelling the playing field done in my lifetime.

Unlike new nifty equipment, winning crown on teh Sir Vitus system isn't enough.. (If a guy wins crown with a certain type of new equipment, you can guarantee a trend because some ppl will assume there's some sort of tactical advantage).. if a guy wins crown by fighting in a new and strange format, people will simply say "cool. shame he made it harder on hmself than he needed to." and continue hunting for the advantage in the sport.

So, I think that having a bunch of guys advocating for it loudly and perhaps getting a little activist about it on their reigns isn't a bad thing. as long as they're not trying to pass permanent Kingdom Laws in direct opposition to the will of their people.

So, for the final time that I think it needs to be said: NOBODY is talking about unilaterally destroying your beloved knee-fighting...

Do we believe that the Vitus system is superior? Well, many of us do, yeah.

Which is why we all believe that, should the Vitus system be given a FAIR chance (and there's the key), that it will likely become the norm. Nothing wrong with that, if it's the way the bulk of the society ends up wanting to go after giving it a fair and balanced examination.

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:So, for the final time that I think it needs to be said: NOBODY is talking about unilaterally destroying your beloved knee-fighting...

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:

BdeB wrote:...is a part of the sport...

Give us some time.

Sounds to me like YOU are.

I agree that knee fighting looks silly, but no more silly then these threads complaining about it. If you want to fight using legs as kills go ahead. If you want to educate people about the alternatives go ahead. Nothing is stopping you except some preconcieved notion that you have in your head.

If you want to have a crown tourney sans knee fighting then win crown.

Count Jonathon has it right on this one. So do those who say that if you don't like fighting from your knees then learn to block better. Counted blows are also an option.

The alternatives are there and allowed. If you want to convince people to try them then maybe you should try a different approach other than complaining.

CiaranBlackrune wrote:

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:So, for the final time that I think it needs to be said: NOBODY is talking about unilaterally destroying your beloved knee-fighting...

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:

BdeB wrote:...is a part of the sport...

Give us some time.

Sounds to me like YOU are.

Nope. I just believe that if counted blows is given a day or to in the sun, people will naturally choose it. It's a hypothesis I intend to test.

Which brings me to your other point: I AM doing more than complaining: I'm gathering the like-minded and asking them to do their utmost to ensure that counted blows a la Vitus DOES get that day in the sun.

Which is why I am declaring this horse dead and beaten and starting a new thread entitled "Testing the Vitus System" in which we can blog our experiences in using this system and advancing its cause.

merci, gentlemen.

That is a fine idea! I say pro actively persue it and sponsor a tourney with the rules of your choice.

Supporters of knee fighting have yet to give one reason why knee fighting is positive that is not 'Because we always have.' I'm fond of nostalgia - overly, at times - so I'm not dismissing this out of hand, but when that's the best you can muster, perhaps some investigation of the situation is needed.

'It is not broken' is not an argument for knee fighting. Many people think it is broken in many ways.

'Don't limit the way other people play' doesn't make any sense - we do this all of the time. 'You can always just take the leg as a kill,' some say, 'so what are you complaining about?' Well, true, I could. I have a feeling you'd be less supportive of my right to decide that it took 10 leg shots to drop me. After all, we are not only talking about deciding how you play the game, but how your opponent plays the game, and takes the shots. In this way knee fighting is analagous to Lightning Bolt Guy, who runs around throwing beanbags in melee then complains when people don't take them as good. Are you trying to limit the way he plays the game? Is the only thing that separates knee fighting from Bean Bag Guy tradition? Well, bean bags are easier on the knees, too, I guess.

What are rules but ways in which we limit how the game is played? And those rules were written by very fallible people, in very different times. If we deem that they no longer serve us and our causes well, it's our responsibility to change them.

Francisco,

If I get out to a practice again.... ever .....

I will gladly work through this with you.
Sword and shield though... last time we fought with glaives, my guantlets were so bad that I'm embarassed at my performance.


Ewan

Ewan wrote:Francisco,

If I get out to a practice again.... ever .....

I will gladly work through this with you.
Sword and shield though... last time we fought with glaives, my guantlets were so bad that I'm embarassed at my performance.


Ewan

Ewan: Never be embarassed at any performance in which you gave your all. I will gladly brawl with you, and would be proud to have your support in this.

I think knee fighting is not a _particularly_ bizarre part of what we do. As for people with bad knees... I have a bad wrist. Should I get to hit lighter?

"The Vitus Proposal" (VP) is, of those I've heard, probably the least game changing. I also like that it prevents me from counting past 2.

I think it would reduce the effectiveness of an arm shot (fighting 2 armed vs. 1 is more than a 50% advantage) but increase the effectiveness of a leg shot (fighting standing 2handed vs a legged opponent 2handed probably adds about 20-30%... possibly more in Kingdoms where there are no "plane of the knees" convention).

I think that it would have a substantial effect on shield sizes, shapes, and fighting styles, although somewhat less than full leg targeting would. I am reasonably certain that it would strongly (further) encourage the use of shields which enable a more passive leg defense (36" long + or so)

It seems like this change would make great weapon better vs. sword and shield.

Some other questions - does a 1/2 kill have to be verbally acknowledged? Is there a mandated pause in the fight? Neither of these are mandated in the current rules. I would assume it would fall under the typical conventions of a "double kill" -- that if the blows are launched more or less simultaneously, than it doesn't matter which "hits" first.

What happens if you throw a leg wrap that hits both legs (hard, obviously)? I assume a hip shot is still 1/2 a kill (except in kingdoms where it's a kill with a mass weapon)

I think that a blow to both legs is 1/2 kill. Right now, a blow to both legs still only reduces you to your knees (at least where I'm from), so it makes sense to keep it to a 1/2.

Sigifrith Hauknefr wrote:Some other questions - does a 1/2 kill have to be verbally acknowledged? Is there a mandated pause in the fight? Neither of these are mandated in the current rules. I would assume it would fall under the typical conventions of a "double kill" -- that if the blows are launched more or less simultaneously, than it doesn't matter which "hits" first.

Too easy...

Just say one or limb, the next shot (even to a limb) would be called good...

The first kill shot would just be called good like we do now.

There would be no reason to stop fighting when a limb or "one" shot is called. You're just acknowledging a telling blow on yourself to your opponent.

As for big shields: why don’t they use them now to protect their legs so they don’t have to fight on their knees? People who would do cheesy things will do cheesy things no matter what. That is not to say "big" shields are cheesy in the first place. My heater is 26X38; it's a war shield, as 90% of my SCA event fighting (outside of fighter practice) is melee fighting; the other 10% are pickup fights with an occasional tournament thrown in for fun.

And besides: Footmen carrying infantry shields… who’d figured…

Hmmm.

I always find this very interesting.

I'll play, too.

I hear, by FAR, more folks complaining about having to chase down polemen to kill them than complaining about knee fighting. I hear them grousing about how hard it is on them to run around like that.

I propose we force all polemen to stand still.

After all, it's what everyone wants.... and I'm sure once we give it a fair trial, everyone will start fighting that way.

Better yet... if we just start training our polemen not to run, it will eventually come to be the norm.


Somehow, it just sounds silly when you apply the logic to any other aspect of what we do.

Just random musings... please go back to discussing how much better the fighting would be if only we would remove ____________.

Eirik wrote:Hmmm.

I always find this very interesting.

I'll play, too.

I hear, by FAR, more folks complaining about having to chase down polemen to kill them than complaining about knee fighting. I hear them grousing about how hard it is on them to run around like that.

I propose we force all polemen to stand still.

After all, it's what everyone wants.... and I'm sure once we give it a fair trial, everyone will start fighting that way.

Better yet... if we just start training our polemen not to run, it will eventually come to be the norm.


Somehow, it just sounds silly when you apply the logic to any other aspect of what we do.

Just random musings... please go back to discussing how much better the fighting would be if only we would remove ____________.

Heh. i agree it sounds silly when applied to another part of the game.. without context or cause.

Which is why I made sure to preface the discussion with a list of actual issues that I had with the system, which my co-conspirators (I jest) added to with their own experiences and concerns. This wasn't "I'd like to disadvantage my opponent for my own comfort" (which is what your satirical example amoutns to), this was "if (a) is a negative element to our game and nobody seems to be able to give a reason to kep it other than "its's tradition, and (b) appears to be a logical solution to the shortcomings of (a) without having an undue negative impact on the nature of the game, let's work towards (b).

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:

CiaranBlackrune wrote:

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:So, for the final time that I think it needs to be said: NOBODY is talking about unilaterally destroying your beloved knee-fighting...

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:

BdeB wrote:...is a part of the sport...

Give us some time.

Sounds to me like YOU are.

Nope. I just believe that if counted blows is given a day or to in the sun, people will naturally choose it. It's a hypothesis I intend to test.

Which brings me to your other point: I AM doing more than complaining: I'm gathering the like-minded and asking them to do their utmost to ensure that counted blows a la Vitus DOES get that day in the sun.

Which is why I am declaring this horse dead and beaten and starting a new thread entitled "Testing the Vitus System" in which we can blog our experiences in using this system and advancing its cause.

merci, gentlemen.

Now that (doing something) is awesome. I can get behind that 100% I also think that if you run a few tournies with the system to give people a chance to get used to it, that they will like it. And that there is my point. Don't just gather people and tell them to make sure it has it's day in the sun. Run a tourney yourself with the system. Help others do the same if they wish.

Thank you, milord.

Ok.

Wrapshots. They're hard on your arm, no disadvantage to your opponent, yadda yadda yadda...

Makes just as much sense, and changes the game we play fundamentally as well.


For the record, we tried "no legs" here. What inevitably happened was
"Hey! Quit hitting me in the leg. I said I wasn't going to call it!", not the agreed upon "Legs are kills".



My knees are crap. I'm real slow to get down and real slow to get up. If you somehow manage to convince folks that fighting from my knees is a Very Bad Thing, I'm sure my knees will benefit in the long run. But on a very basic level, I'm pretty much against joining a football team, then bitching because tackling hurts so we should just tag eachother with the ball.

I know... I'm far too old school. I like archers shooting at me. I like fighting from my knees and do it rather well at times. I like SCA fighting and all the conventions and rules that pertain thereunto.

Again, I'm not against rules changes if they improve the game or make it safer (for knees, too).

I am against bitching about it, and was trying to use hyperbole to demonstrate the sillyness of doing that. I do thank you for realizing my post was lighthearted and not tearing me a new one for differing in opinion. Good luck in your quest to change fighting to counted blows!

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:

Eirik wrote:Hmmm.

I always find this very interesting.

I'll play, too.

I hear, by FAR, more folks complaining about having to chase down polemen to kill them than complaining about knee fighting. I hear them grousing about how hard it is on them to run around like that.

I propose we force all polemen to stand still.

After all, it's what everyone wants.... and I'm sure once we give it a fair trial, everyone will start fighting that way.

Better yet... if we just start training our polemen not to run, it will eventually come to be the norm.


Somehow, it just sounds silly when you apply the logic to any other aspect of what we do.

Just random musings... please go back to discussing how much better the fighting would be if only we would remove ____________.

Heh. i agree it sounds silly when applied to another part of the game.. without context or cause.

Which is why I made sure to preface the discussion with a list of actual issues that I had with the system, which my co-conspirators (I jest) added to with their own experiences and concerns. This wasn't "I'd like to disadvantage my opponent for my own comfort" (which is what your satirical example amoutns to), this was "if (a) is a negative element to our game and nobody seems to be able to give a reason to kep it other than "its's tradition, and (b) appears to be a logical solution to the shortcomings of (a) without having an undue negative impact on the nature of the game, let's work towards (b).

The Vitus rules should be written out properly and codified, then posted so people who are running tourneys can just print it out and use them. (beyond the sticky i just saw at the top of the forum )

I think its the foundation of a great system that still keeps with the spirit of SCA fighting while moving away from knee fighting silliness.

Cheers,

Vettor Venier wrote:Supporters of knee fighting have yet to give one reason why knee fighting is positive that is not 'Because we always have.' I'm fond of nostalgia - overly, at times - so I'm not dismissing this out of hand, but when that's the best you can muster, perhaps some investigation of the situation is needed.

'It is not broken' is not an argument for knee fighting. Many people think it is broken in many ways.

'Don't limit the way other people play' doesn't make any sense - we do this all of the time. 'You can always just take the leg as a kill,' some say, 'so what are you complaining about?' Well, true, I could. I have a feeling you'd be less supportive of my right to decide that it took 10 leg shots to drop me. After all, we are not only talking about deciding how you play the game, but how your opponent plays the game, and takes the shots. In this way knee fighting is analagous to Lightning Bolt Guy, who runs around throwing beanbags in melee then complains when people don't take them as good. Are you trying to limit the way he plays the game? Is the only thing that separates knee fighting from Bean Bag Guy tradition? Well, bean bags are easier on the knees, too, I guess.

What are rules but ways in which we limit how the game is played? And those rules were written by very fallible people, in very different times. If we deem that they no longer serve us and our causes well, it's our responsibility to change them.

I would suggest giving a little respect to those who built this game for you to play. You act as though the people who started this and worked for many years through trial and error were stupid.

If the system were so stupid that it did not function you would not be playing in the SCA right now. It would not exist if it were not created by those who put their bodies to hazard to experiment and come up with the most functional set of rules. The fact is that these types of suggestions and trials have happened before many times with various tweaks to the conventions of combat to a point where the basic set of rules have gone unchanged now for nearly 30 years.

How on earth do you think they came to having such rules? It is because they tried all sorts of methods including counted blows, higher calibrations, armour as worn, etc... and the rules that we have now were the most functional and kept the playing field the most level.

If you don't like what they provided for you then leave. There are other organizations that you can go to and disrespect the founders of.

Count Johnathan wrote:I would suggest giving a little respect to those who built this game for you to play.

Appeal to emotion.

You act as though the people who started this and worked for many years through trial and error were stupid.

Straw man with a dash of ad hominem.

If the system were so stupid that it did not function you would not be playing in the SCA right now.

Straw man. My car would move down the road with oval tires, but that doesn't mean it's the best way to go about things.

It would not exist if it were not created by those who put their bodies to hazard to experiment and come up with the most functional set of rules.

Begs the question. Etc etc etc.

I'm all for civil discourse, but as this has turned uncivil, I'll be retiring from this thread. I look forward to speaking with some people locally, testing out the proposed changes, and posting about them in the sticky.

One advantage knee fighting has over other methods:
It very clearly indicates to the opponent and all watching when a blow is acknowledged and deemed sufficient.

It's a game. It's not a mirror of real life. No one is claiming it's a perfect system. But it is a working system. No one is claiming it accurately portrays accurate sword fighting any more than paintball accurately portrays gun fights.

As for the toll on our bodies? Deal. It's a physical game, we swing sticks, we fight past exhaustion. For the most part we as a group do not train for it. We do little to no energy system work, we do little or no strength training, we do little or no prehab work. Frankly I am surprised we are as long on the injury list as we are.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be able to fight full contact and swing a stick around and NOT ever get injured, and NEVER have it take a toll on my body, but that is just not real life.

Ogedei

Vettor Venier wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote:I would suggest giving a little respect to those who built this game for you to play.

Appeal to emotion.

You act as though the people who started this and worked for many years through trial and error were stupid.

Straw man with a dash of ad hominem.

If the system were so stupid that it did not function you would not be playing in the SCA right now.

Straw man. My car would move down the road with oval tires, but that doesn't mean it's the best way to go about things.

It would not exist if it were not created by those who put their bodies to hazard to experiment and come up with the most functional set of rules.

Begs the question. Etc etc etc.

I'm all for civil discourse, but as this has turned uncivil, I'll be retiring from this thread. I look forward to speaking with some people locally, testing out the proposed changes, and posting about them in the sticky.

Sounds more like you just don't have anything important to say and that you have a severe lack of respect for the gift that our predecessors gave you. It is so uncivil for anyone to ask you to have respect for others. How sad.

"...those rules were written by very fallible people..." You sound like a severe dick there.

Cars with oval tires? What a shitty uncomfortable ride. I don't think they would have ever caught on personally.