On Your Knees!

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

One advantage knee fighting has over other methods:
It very clearly indicates to the opponent and all watching when a blow is acknowledged and deemed sufficient.

It's a game. It's not a mirror of real life. No one is claiming it's a perfect system. But it is a working system. No one is claiming it accurately portrays accurate sword fighting any more than paintball accurately portrays gun fights.

As for the toll on our bodies? Deal. It's a physical game, we swing sticks, we fight past exhaustion. For the most part we as a group do not train for it. We do little to no energy system work, we do little or no strength training, we do little or no prehab work. Frankly I am surprised we are as long on the injury list as we are.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to be able to fight full contact and swing a stick around and NOT ever get injured, and NEVER have it take a toll on my body, but that is just not real life.

Ogedei

Ogie: calling out the acknowledgement of a limb-blow (calling "one' for instance" or the fact of the bout ending would let the crowd know that blows were acknowledged.

Yes, I know it's a physical game. That's where the bruises and occasional cracked bone come into it. But hobbling my knees to adhere to an ill-guided rule, made in ignorance to the reality of combat, 40 years ago, seems unnecessary.

I want my opponent's weapons taking the toll on my carcass. Not the gymnasium floor.

[ThorvaldR Skegglauss]

Reason I don't mind going to my knees:

It simulates to the best way i have found yet, the lack of manueverablity I would have if actually damaged by a weapon. We can't actually hamper ourselves any other way. If you actually had a "telling" blow on my leg with a real sword that does not imply that you have sheared off my leg a'la' monty python, it means you have damaged it and I can't move as well. It didn't kill me but made me slower etc... when I tore my ACL it didn't immobilize me but it was hard to move around, when I tore all the ligaments in my ankle it slowed me but didn't immobilize me... If you hurt my torso or head to that same extant I would be incapacitated.... Hence our current ruleset.

I think that we are being "overly chivalrous" when we don't allow people to go around and corkscrew an opponent on his knees. He is down there because you damaged his manueverability you should be allowed to take advantage of it.

just my opinion of course

regards
Thorvaldr

[Whitewolf Sr.]

Card carrying member of the "old broken down system", "ill-concieved". "ignorent to the reality of combat" "40 years ago" club.....
you should be very happy that waivers were introduced......I am....that means that my old , outdated ass can pound your ignorent ass like a tent peg sport!
your options have been more than clearly spelled out to you...yet you continue to bitch
Your profound disrepect for all who have gone before has been well noted.
I can only assume that your knight can rest comfortably to have a squire of such magnitude as to guide him and all others to the ignorence and error of their ways (all respects to the good baron & brother Knight)
ed:personaly I would be appalled and ashamed as to the representation that you display. You don't get it do you?...don't plan on getting it either! As I said (and I assure you that I am not alone on this) "thank god for waivers"....because from this point no one that I know will ever strike you in your "special flower legs" but will endeavor to flat snap you stupider than you already are. Some wise advice here sonny...If you can't take 'em, don't thow 'em. Be a little more selective about who you hurl insults at...if you can't respect your elders you'll damb well fear your betters!

Count Sir Johnathan Crusadene, Lord Whitewolf Sr. ....KSCA, feb. 18, 1973...40 years in service to the crown and the people of the SCA.

Enough said? Just exactly how PERIOD would you like ME to get??

[Aaron]

Good Morrow Count Crusadene,

I think your son's arguments were better. Your words do him a disservice IMO. It’s like a combat archer trying to help him during the finals of Crown Tournament…it’s distracting and rather silly.

Its arguments from “leadershipâ€

[Aaron]

No change is required.

This summary is good.

The rules allow for counte blows, Sir Vitus' Rules, etc... If we build and announce it, people will enjoy events that have counted blows, etc...

A lot of people have fun on their knees, and I don't want to rain on their fun. People have tried to get me to fight from my knees before and it was rude. It is equally rude if I ask people to NOT fight from their knees.

We can all "just get along".

With respect,

-Aaron

[Sir Guy]

When did this happen?

Good Morrow Count Crusadene,

What happens if I hit harder and beat my elders and "betters"? From my experience they will end up having a hissy fit and complain and try and ban me for throwing excessively, if they act like you. Don’t play that card – it’s a poor one and doesn’t always work.

-Aaron

[Aaron]

When did this happen?

Good Morrow Count Crusadene,

What happens if I hit harder and beat my elders and "betters"? From my experience they will end up having a hissy fit and complain and try and ban me for throwing excessively, if they act like you. Don’t play that card – it’s a poor one and doesn’t always work.

-Aaron

In Japan, after you left. I've explained it before sir. It's dirty laundry that I should not have aired in public. Please forgive me for that.

With respect,

-Aaron

[Sir Guy]

I am aware of what happened in Japan after you left. What you state is not what happened, or is perhaps your perception of events.

When did this happen?

Good Morrow Count Crusadene,

What happens if I hit harder and beat my elders and "betters"? From my experience they will end up having a hissy fit and complain and try and ban me for throwing excessively, if they act like you. Don’t play that card – it’s a poor one and doesn’t always work.

-Aaron

In Japan, after you left. I've explained it before sir. It's dirty laundry that I should not have aired in public. Please forgive me for that.

With respect,

-Aaron

[Conrad the Mad]

WOW just Wow.

I am very glad I live in the Midrealm.
I have to agree with Aaron 100%

[Aaron]

Sir Guy,

I was there and an eyewitness and the fellow who threw the shots. There are more sides to a story than people, but I at least was there to get it first-hand. I'm thankful for those who helped me make sure it wasn't worse. I will speak no more on this and apologise for bringing you into this.

May the thread improve now.

With respect,

-Aaron

[Whitewolf Sr.]

Brother Aaron..good morrow...no dis -respect intended to anyone but a simple lesson to the reaction of the disrespected......I have over the last 40 some years heard the same "Gerbal on a Wheel argument" tendered by many who (their words not mine) suck at the "sport" and want the rules, conventions and agreements changed to suit their very "special flower needs. History dictates that most have failed...If I have given the impression that I was presenting argument, I was not. You see, in reality the options given and the conventions agreed upon have been in place for many years because, for the most part, they work,,,,now that is not to say that they have not evolved and (in some cases) out right changed and in large part for the better for all concerned. Perhaps my dissertation was harsh...yes it was!..However the intent was and is to get the attention of those who somehow believe that we elders swore some mystical oath to endure whatever insult or disparity hurled at us thus giving the abuser some right to be insultive and rude to ANYONE, thus throwing out courtesy, honor, respect as useless and unecessary to the essence of our game and traditions and in effect "bend" the game to their individual likeing. If this line of thinking is offensive then I apologize...but the mind set of "I demand respect but find all others unworthy of any" does undermine the concerted efforts of those makeing that effort. If I somehow did not present myself as some old whipped dog as expected and cower in the magnificence of outright insult then it is what it is....I shall not retire in the face of some tantrum when some one "doesn't like the game"....I mean this young man no harm....nor do I wish to see any done to him...but don't expect copitulation to respect where none is given.
what ever happened to Noble Obligation? Is that no longer taught.....I personally have NEVER demanded that anyone go to his knees or even demand that they play by the rules given....just to expect consequences for bending or outright ignoring them....so if this not sufficient explination then perhaps we all should play another game.

[Aaron]

Sir,

Your statement was much better and I understand better. We played, well spoken and well delivered.

Please forgive me if I came across as crass and a...donkey's behind. Some days I forget that opening my mouth without due thought can be folly on my part.

I look forward to seeing both your son and you someday. While your son and I disagree on almost every possible topic, I admire his determination, wit and pure moxie.

Drat. I posted again. See what I meant about

opening my mouth without due thought can be folly on my part.

With respect,

-Aaron

[Tristan vom Schwarzwald]

Angry words said in haste fly like arrows.
Launched with thoughtless vigor, to the heart they fly
cold, ugly, tearing things that bring naught but sorrow.

Let us define who we are by what we say
Each word finely crafted, a color carefully chosen,
each sentence lovingly wrought , a graceful curve upon the canvas.

We are the artist that creates himself,
each action and word another brush stroke
making the picture clear.


---Tristan vom Schwarzwald

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

Count Sir Jonathan Crusadene:

With the exception of one heated exchange where I referred to Count Jonathan as a reactionary- for which I apologized, btw), I have not hurled insults at anyone.

The tone and content of your first message, by contrast, was liberally peppered with direct insults and threats.

"Card carrying member of the "old broken down system", "ill-concieved". "ignorent to the reality of combat" "40 years ago" club....."

Not just a member- I'm also the President.

"you should be very happy that waivers were introduced......I am....that means that my old , outdated ass can pound your ignorent ass like a tent peg sport!"

And so begins what promises to be a level-headed and measured opinion from a Royal Peer...


"your options have been more than clearly spelled out to you...yet you continue to bitch"

Unless my King tells me to shut up, and his successor, and each succeeding monarch of the great Kingdom of An-Tir after them in perpetuity, then my options INCLUDE trying to work for change, should I choose to make the attempt. Just as your options include digging in your heels, continuing to fight the old-fashioned way if you so choose and, apparently, dragging civil discourse down to the level of petty insults and threats more becoming of a thug than a Knight of the Society in service to the Dream.

"Your profound disrepect for all who have gone before has been well noted."

Believeing that the SYSTEM can be improved does not mean that I despise or hold in low regard my ancestors.


"I can only assume that your knight can rest comfortably to have a squire of such magnitude as to guide him and all others to the ignorence and error of their ways (all respects to the good baron & brother Knight)"

Or, alternatively and with all due respect, you can assume nothing of my relationship with my knight, as you know neither myself nor his Excellency. I will let you know this, though: he knows that I am passionate, he knows that I am prone to level my lance when I spot a windmill and he knows that I will ardently oppose anything I see as wrong.

"ed:personaly I would be appalled and ashamed as to the representation that you display."

By wanting to fix something I see as broken? How is that a bad thing?

" You don't get it do you?...don't plan on getting it either! As I said (and I assure you that I am not alone on this) 'thank god for waivers'....because from this point no one that I know will ever strike you in your 'special flower legs' "

My lord, I will soon comission a set of early-period cuir-boulli cuisses with special flowers on them. Just for you.

"but will endeavor to flat snap you stupider than you already are."

I can only hope that one day, I will be able to joust with words in as courteous and knightly a fashion as Your Excellency.

"Some wise advice here sonny...If you can't take 'em, don't thow 'em. Be a little more selective about who you hurl insults at...if you can't respect your elders you'll damb well fear your betters! "

So you intend to take a personal grudge onto thelist, thus dishonouring yourself, the king who holds your fealty and the lady who inspires your honour? That saddens me.


I'll repeat. I am not saying our ancestors were morons. I'm saying that we did not have the sort of information that we now do regarding wounds delivered by bladed weapons in the 60s. Which is ONLY even relevant IF we're recreating duels with intent and not a chivalric Behourds tournament format. The SCA began as a party and an ideal. We builst a structure around that ideal, and have over time come to express it very differently than we did at the first gathering. We have made strides in the direction of greater historical accuracy in ouir appearence, our arts, our sciences, our culture. Seeking to do the same for our combative elements should not be a bad thing.

If you have a problem with my position, milord, then by all means address the substance of my argument: try to refute the arguments made in favour of change, or present new logical arguments in favour of keeping things at status quo- but don't tell me that I love the SCA any less than you, and don;t tell me that by doing so I am somehow betraying my heritage. That kind of rhetoric only cheapens the debate and washes whatever moral highground you may believe you have out from under your feet.

[Sir Guy]

Sorry but it always upsets me when you play the victim about this and speak poorly of people I hold in high reguard. I always feel Ineed to speak their side since they are not here. You did alot of good in Japan and worked very hard to support the Barony with events and such. However there were some issues with your fighting that most of us let ride. Since you got new better fitting armor, they arn't an issue anymore.

Sir Guy,

I was there and an eyewitness and the fellow who threw the shots. There are more sides to a story than people, but I at least was there to get it first-hand. I'm thankful for those who helped me make sure it wasn't worse. I will speak no more on this and apologise for bringing you into this.

May the thread improve now.

With respect,

-Aaron

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

Reason I don't mind going to my knees:

It simulates to the best way i have found yet, the lack of manueverablity I would have if actually damaged by a weapon. We can't actually hamper ourselves any other way. If you actually had a "telling" blow on my leg with a real sword that does not imply that you have sheared off my leg a'la' monty python, it means you have damaged it and I can't move as well. It didn't kill me but made me slower etc... when I tore my ACL it didn't immobilize me but it was hard to move around, when I tore all the ligaments in my ankle it slowed me but didn't immobilize me... If you hurt my torso or head to that same extant I would be incapacitated.... Hence our current ruleset.

regards
Thorvaldr

Thorvaldr, thank you for joinging the debate, and thank you for your take on the subject.

This is cool.

Forgive me if I get oversimplistic with my response, jut trying to keep this as objective as possible.

IF we're trying to simulate terrible wounds of an incapacitating nature, THEN what we're recreating is a duel with intent rather than a chivalric tournament. (As a Norseman, when you fight, do you see yourself as fighting a Tourney, or a Holmgang?)

IF we're recreating such a duel, THEN the force with which we're striking eachother is inadequate to the task of delivering such wounds through our presumed armour standard.

Also, IF we're pretending to fight with intent and sharp weapons, THEN the most accurate representation of receiving a devastating blow from an edged weapon would be to fall down and bleed to death, in most cases. Not to lose some mobility.

IF we're recreating a Tourney, on the other hand, counted blows is a historically documentable way to do this, which I can;t see as being a negative.

[benz72]

IF we're recreating such a duel, THEN the force with which we're striking eachother is inadequate to the task of delivering such wounds through our presumed armour standard.

This is the only passage in the above post that I can find unsupportable. There exists a very wide range of calibrations throughout the society. Collectively describing them all as insufficient seems overly broad.

Please consider a modification to this statement.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

Your Excellency Whitewolf Sr.: I just realized that there's a way for you to help me to understand, hopefully, why we do things the way that we do things. It may actually aid the debate.

By the sounds of it, milord, you've been around since just after the First Party.

Can you please tell me, as accurately as you remember, what the reasons were for developing heavy fighting the way that it was developed?

Were we trying to recreate a tourney?
Were we trying to recreate a duel?
Was the intent from the beginning to create a sport independent of both of these things?
What was the original purpose of the hopping on one foot/knee-fighting as explained to you when you started fighting?
Was it to simulate a wound?
Was it to create a simple reward/penalty for good aim/poor defense?

I guess what I mean to say is that maybe, if we understood why it was developed the way it was, we might see some value in keeping it. That's the problem at present, that there seems to be NO reason other than sentiment for this style of blow acknowledgement, and nobody's been able to provide us with one.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

IF we're recreating such a duel, THEN the force with which we're striking eachother is inadequate to the task of delivering such wounds through our presumed armour standard.

This is the only passage in the above post that I can find unsupportable. There exists a very wide range of calibrations throughout the society. Collectively describing them all as insufficient seems overly broad.

Please consider a modification to this statement.

I fight in maille, for the most part. I have also done WMA and test-cut when given the chance.

My belief is that the amount of force required to shear a maille hauberk, a gambeson, a mail chausse and then carve deeply enough into my largest muscle group to incapacitate that limb is far beyong the amount of force beyond which anyone wants to get hit with a rattan fishbat.

I used to think that maybe, what we were simulating was having our leg broken by the force of a "good" blow being concentrated (and thus amplified) into the surface area of a sword's edge- but now I'm not so sure that the difference between a sword's striking surface/mechanics and a baton's is so great that IF you were gonna break my leg with the sword you would not ALREADY be breaking my leg with the baseball bat.

[Count Johnathan]

We use counted blows. To keep it simple we need only to count to 1.

[Whitewolf Sr.]

My dear Frnsico...cool your jets a bit...okay? If you read my explaination to bro. Aaron you may understand what I was doing and did accomplish....I got your attention! where you may have missed the mark was that the retort can and probably would be the reaction to your "suggestion" if you direct your "attack" with leading words such as "stupid" "ignorent" "old out dated" "Hippie" and thread that with your lack of appreciation of 40 years of effort and work to make , if you will,a'somewhat stable and level playing field for all concerned. Which if you must know has been in play for better than 30 years...such as "the option"...the option has been used and in play for decades. No one that I know would or should DEMAND or order you or anyother to fight from your knees...get it? Streamlining what is already a limited set of "target areas" by eliminating one only serves to diminish the sport...
and FYI I and many,many others respect "The Vitus Proposition" but realize too the potintial for abuse of a counted blow system....it's been done and truth be known led to just ignoring any "shots" or "blows" no matter how sufficient based on the "don't got to acknowledge them therefore don" gotta count 'em.....ya dint hit me in the head and besidse I got anasal theory so I don't gotta take it"....are you beginning to see a trend here....I assure you it did, does and will continue to happen with the counted blow theory...and until "every one" is on board with it the abuse
will continue.....sadly not all of the players are honorable or honest....as much as we would like to think that they are "tis not the case...now I really don't want you or any other to feel that you are simply a voice crying in the wilderness...your not! You have been heard...but please don't diminish your
case, as it were, to really quite inflamitory language as a presentation of a totally broken system...it's not...you might really piss of those that are essentially on your side...you do yourself no favors there. To disparage the entire game as somewhat farsicle because of some sort of lack of "accurate and documented reality" truly diminishes the "entertaining and sporting aspect" of the "game" IMO....We can discuss it to death and accomplish naught.....or take the high ground and refine that which "is" through time. If I got your attention I'm glad...If you were offended then that should be ammended through this missive...

Regards,

Whitewolf Sr.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

My dear Frnsico...cool your jets a bit...okay? If you read my explaination to bro. Aaron you may understand what I was doing and did accomplish....I got your attention! where you may have missed the mark was that the retort can and probably would be the reaction to your "suggestion" if you direct your "attack" with leading words such as "stupid" "ignorent" "old out dated" "Hippie" and thread that with your lack of appreciation of 40 years of effort and work to make , if you will,a'somewhat stable and level playing field for all concerned. Which if you must know has been in play for better than 30 years...such as "the option"...the option has been used and in play for decades. No one that I know would or should DEMAND or order you or anyother to fight from your knees...get it? Streamlining what is already a limited set of "target areas" by eliminating one only serves to diminish the sport...
and FYI I and many,many others respect "The Vitus Proposition" but realize too the potintial for abuse of a counted blow system....it's been done and truth be known led to just ignoring any "shots" or "blows" no matter how sufficient based on the "don't got to acknowledge them therefore don" gotta count 'em.....ya dint hit me in the head and besidse I got anasal theory so I don't gotta take it"....are you beginning to see a trend here....I assure you it did, does and will continue to happen with the counted blow theory...and until "every one" is on board with it the abuse
will continue.....sadly not all of the players are honorable or honest....as much as we would like to think that they are "tis not the case...now I really don't want you or any other to feel that you are simply a voice crying in the wilderness...your not! You have been heard...but please don't diminish your
case, as it were, to really quite inflamitory language as a presentation of a totally broken system...it's not...you might really piss of those that are essentially on your side...you do yourself no favors there. To disparage the entire game as somewhat farsicle because of some sort of lack of "accurate and documented reality" truly diminishes the "entertaining and sporting aspect" of the "game" IMO....We can discuss it to death and accomplish naught.....or take the high ground and refine that which "is" through time. If I got your attention I'm glad...If you were offended then that should be ammended through this missive...

Regards,

Whitewolf Sr.

Sir, I am glad to know that we can still be civil, and if I misunderstood your.. ardour.. in your first post, my apologies- this post does indeed amend my opinion of the argument.

Now, while I agree with you that the potential for abuse exists, I will have to refer you to Sir Vitus' argument that a cheat will be a cheat no matter the system. In fact, this definition of combat would diminish the excuses, if nothing else, as a nasal, etc. would have no bearing on the acknowledgement of blows: since we're simply acknowledging stout blows and not trying to emulate wounds received as a result of blows thrown with intent and real weapons, whether one gets hit in the nasal is immaterial. I wasn't trying to cut you. I was trying to land a stout blow.

and, it must be repeated.. a cheat will cheat no matter what the system. If I have not convinced them that they've been defeated with a head-rocking thrust to the eye-slot, I will never convince them and the method we choose to have them ignore is immaterial to their douchebaggery.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

I'm very good at knee-fighting BTW. I wasn't knighted because I was good at counted blows.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

Sir Vuitus: it was brought up that you might not want your name attached to my rabble-rousing... ARE you ok with us provisionally calling it the "Vitus system"

[Count Johnathan]

"...a cheat will cheat no matter what the system..."

That is very correct however the past experiences have shown that the level of ignoring blows does go up using a counted blows system. Now 2 people with long term experience have told you this yet you disregard it. They tell you not through speculation but through experience. Please do not dismiss that.

Now as I was saying previously DO hold a tourney or many that hold to this system and it will be accepted 100% by all participants! Is that not the best option?

As well, rather than being concerned that Sir Vitus might have an issue or even his reputation tarnished (which is unlikely anyway) The tourney could be held in his honor! What a great concept no? Pleasant all the way around and zero chance at disruption to any currently pre organized fighting events.

If you feel this is a bad idea because the attempt is to somehow be disruptive then the concept is doomed to failure.

Again friendly and helpful advice to aid you in your quest. I do hope you understand this much.

[CiaranBlackrune]

And here I thought that options had been given and conclusions had been reached.

Some people just like to argue.


Personally counted blows to the leg work pretty well for me. I can throw two (or more) hard successive shots to the leg very fast. Counted blows means I don't have to bother killing you when you're on your knees.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

"...a cheat will cheat no matter what the system..."

That is very correct however the past experiences have shown that the level of ignoring blows does go up using a counted blows system. Now 2 people with long term experience have told you this yet you disregard it. They tell you not through speculation but through experience. Please do not dismiss that.

Now as I was saying previously DO hold a tourney or many that hold to this system and it will be accepted 100% by all participants! Is that not the best option?

As well, rather than being concerned that Sir Vitus might have an issue or even his reputation tarnished (which is unlikely anyway) The tourney could be held in his honor! What a great concept no? Pleasant all the way around and zero chance at disruption to any currently pre organized fighting events.

If you feel this is a bad idea because the attempt is to somehow be disruptive then the concept is doomed to failure.

Again friendly and helpful advice to aid you in your quest. I do hope you understand this much.

I realize you speak from experience, but I'm also balancing your opinions against those of Sir Vitus, Duke Logan, etc. I'm not ignoring you, I'm just not going to let a few asshats who want to cheat stop me from testing a new system that might improve my experience and that of my playmates Thanks for the warning, though. I sincerely appreciate it.

I will, btw, be sponsoring every tourney I run from here on in as using this system, unless it proves to diminish the enjoyment or otherwise hobble the game.

[Whitewolf Sr.]

first let me explain that I have or have been an active participant in the SCA since early 1970..now in the begining we virtually wore little or no armor other than a helmet of sorts (OMG Freon tank helms) rattan evolved from axe handles and adze handles but the diminsions have not changed (the 1 an1/4" rule) now understanding the lack of armour thing created by nature some really serious injuries.....introduce "Kite Shields" and "coffin lids" (48'X24 to28") some fights could take up to an hour or more and consisted of little more than flailing at one another...enter the round centerboss viking shield to "level the field..however your target was from the top of your head to your feet..front and back knuckles to ankles (no basket hilts) "METAL ON THE FIELD....AGHHHHHH" IRON OR STEEL RIMMED SHIELDS ..OKAY.....now given this information getting slapped in the leg was acceptable if not incapacitating...unfortunately busting one in the instep was also acceptable and incapacatiting...sooo some experiments were done to see if leather, maile,plate etc. were viable to "the game" as armour was now making it's inevitable way into the scheme....however those who chose to wear armour decided that they no longer hadto accept blows through their armour because a "sword would not penetrate or cut" their now impervious armour...more experiments..but the targets had not changed.....sooooo dead sheep carcass and all of the above armours were thus tested against the theory of impervious.....guess what you couldn't "cut" any of the above with a single handed sword....hmmmmm....so I guess we have to learn to trust each others judgement and infuse the honor system into the game...right! WRONG.....upon re-examination off afore mentiond carcasses...with the exception of "plate" ..massive tissue damage and broken bones and literally smashed joints were the norm and consistant... EVEN with a rattan stick !!!!!!!!!!! and given a verticle appendage (leg) it was easy to snap a joint even in plate (knee cop)...change of rules!!!!!No hitting on or below the knee....EVER!!!! no wrists or hands and try and avoid elbows if possible...enter manditory kidney protection , manditory groin protection manditory throat protection and no more freon helms...ever...etc. Now on to leg blows... and fighting from the ground....point of discussion and rule.....CONSIDER ANY BLOW TO THE LEG AS INCAPACITATING INCLUSIVE OF THE ENTIRE LEG FROM ANKLE TO HIP AS HAVING "BROKEN" THE LEG (JOINTS!) AND ANY CUT TO THE INSIDE LEG AS HAVING CUT OR SEVERED THE FEMURAL ARTERY (sic). as such blows to the inside leg or groin would have (and did) cause a cut or a severe contusion if delt with sufficiant force...injurys and blow were to be judged as if the blow had been dealt with a "real" weapon sufficient to cause damage...the standard armour worn is a maile hauberk elbow to knee, leather or splint grieves and forearm cannons, elbow and knee cops, steel or leather and an open face Norman helm with nasal.....has not changed since 1972-1973.

Now the Honor part and the "option" etc. etc. etc.

I hope this clears the air somewhat and answers any questions.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

People are LESS likely to shrug a limb blow that doesn't put them into a ridiculous, time-wasting, joint-destroying "disadvantage." Let's see-

Saying "limb" or dropping down to your knees.
Saying "limb" instead of talking about using the sword arm already in use, switching hands etc.

The outcome is the same- a LIMB IS NOT A KILL IN BOTH SYSTEMS. Ignoring a limb shot has nothing to do with what happens if the limb shot is taken.

In one system, you say a word.
In the other, you go through a bunch of silliness.

You either ignore a good blow or you don't.

Yeah, call the "Two-or-One" system the Vitus System. I stand by the logic behind it's use. I have been fighting this way exclusively for EIGHT YEARS STRAIGHT and it hasn't made anyone more or less inclined to cheat me. You are either a douche or you ain't - that is between you and God. If you have an Eric Cartmanesque ability to do all types of mental gymnastics in order to justify whatever it is you want- go ahead. You ain't tricking anybody.

The act of ignoring a shot has nothing to do with what would happen if the shot wasn't ignored!!!!!

[Foxman]

Greetings,

As a ‘new’ fighter with only a year of SCA fighting experience under my belt (so to speak) I have been following this thread with interest. I have read all the posts (all 6 pages! Oi!) and have formed some opinions and have some thoughts on the matter.

As a new fighter I have been shown that if I take a blow to my leg I am to drop to my knees. This is just ‘the way it is done’. I have read the ABC’s (An Tir Book of Combat) and understand that there are other ‘options’. Let me assure one and all, that I will not be standing on one leg after taking a leg blow. We all understand (I feel fairly comfortable in stating this), that it is not very safe as it is not stable, nor an effective platform from which to attack from (all monty python references aside). I have the option of taking a leg shot as a kill. Taking the leg as a kill puts me at a sufficient disadvantage vs. my opponent, one I am unlikely to grant given the options. Realistically speaking, for me at least (though I suggest my feelings are not uncommon) the only realistic option to me is “knee-fightingâ€

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Whitewolf Sr. -

ee Cummings - wonderful poetic style... Harder than hell to read in a post.

Punctuation, capitalization, spacing. It would make reading your thoughts a lot easier - and make them less "stream of conciousness ranting of a serial bomber" like.

Seriously.

[Whitewolf Sr.]

Poetic license....

[Diglach Mac Cein]

Ultimately, I don't care if we knee fight, count blows, Vitus' rules, whatever...

As long as we both have fun, get a lot of fighting in, and you occasionally drop your guard.



.

[Count Johnathan]

Yes fun the common goal and the tie that binds. I agree.

As far as knee injuries or damage is concerned I think the argument against knee fighting should not include injuring your knees though. I have seen many very serious knee injuries occur to fighters who were standing. I've seen a LOT of knee injuries. Falling, twisting, accepting charges, stepping into holes etc...Far to many to count. None of them were due to knee fighting that I can recall. Not saying it hasn't happened but I have not seen it in 20 years of activity on the field.

I can totally understand anyone with a pre existing condition having either no desire or even the ability to go to their knees but to say that this system would somehow reduce knee injuries is completely false. Sorry but it is.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

Yes fun the common goal and the tie that binds. I agree.

As far as knee injuries or damage is concerned I think the argument against knee fighting should not include injuring your knees though. I have seen many very serious knee injuries occur to fighters who were standing. I've seen a LOT of knee injuries. Falling, twisting, accepting charges, stepping into holes etc...Far to many to count. None of them were due to knee fighting that I can recall. Not saying it hasn't happened but I have not seen it in 20 years of activity on the field.

I can totally understand anyone with a pre existing condition having either no desire or even the ability to go to their knees but to say that this system would somehow reduce knee injuries is completely false. Sorry but it is.

This came up in my facebook discussion on the subject with my local fighters as well- (soon-to-be-Sir) Aiden made much the same argument as you.

I don't believe that the catastrophic failures fighters experience happen while kneeling. I believe that performing high-impact activities while applying tidrect and fiolent downward force to the bare patella, fluid-sack and ligament emplacements of the knee joint in a manner that they were not designed to absorb pressure degrades the integrity of the knee's supportive tissues and increases the chances of such damage taking place.

I'm actually going to be discussing the matter with some doctors and physiotherapists soon to get their opinions and either confirm or verify my suspicions and be able to provice a more factual argument.