On Your Knees!

[liguangming]

I have seen it mentioned several times that fighting from our knees looks silly. This sounds like a matter of pride. Are we not supposed to strive to be more humble?

[Magnus Ulfgarsson]

"...We take a more serious approach today and it no longer serves us as well..."

You mean YOU your grace. The rest of US are ok with it.

You mean YOU your Excellency. Some of the rest of US, don't agree.

Agreed.

Though there's other points from that post I agree with in reference to blow strength.

[CiaranBlackrune]

I have seen it mentioned several times that fighting from our knees looks silly. This sounds like a matter of pride. Are we not supposed to strive to be more humble?

Wouldn't it be more a matter of vanity if it looks silly?

This thread has inspired me to go become a knee fighting, madu weilding, kilt wearing, generi-pirate.

[Count Johnathan]

Yeah it seems a matter more of "I think it looks silly" or "it makes me look silly and I lose" rather than a "OMG hurting my knees" kind of thing. Shrouding the issue in false allegations does not serve to help the process.

I am of the mind that if one does not like it for whatever reason that is a good enough reason to want to try something different. I'm cool with that but in the past it seems others are not ok with that as a valid reason to oppose anything.

Personally I don't like fighting from my knees but I like the system and frankly fighting from ones knees is not supposed to be great. It is supposed to be a penalty. It sucks. Yes it sucks. Get better to avoid having to accept the penalty. This is a fighting game. It seems a little whiney to be bothered by accepting a penalty like that IMO.

[Count Johnathan]

"...We take a more serious approach today and it no longer serves us as well..."

You mean YOU your grace. The rest of US are ok with it.

You mean YOU your Excellency. Some of the rest of US, don't agree.

Agreed.

Though there's other points from that post I agree with in reference to blow strength.

Again that was the point of the reply. I am glad it did not go unnoticed.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

It's not merely a matter of it looking silly.

It's deficient on several points, none of which has been directly spoken to yet. As to the looking silly, which is in fact one of these points- striving for humility is one thing- and yet we treat our arms with respect, and our banners- which are, in essence, merely symbols for our honour... is that not vanity, as well? Is striving to look period/good on the field now a hubris and a vice?

Should we all, for the sake of humility, wear tattered rags over exposed blue barrell and freon-lid helms?

I think not. Doing honour to our selves, our ladies, our spectators and our sport by wishing to appear clean, historically accurate and serious should not be seen as a failing of honour.

If I tell my lady that I'm intentionally going to take the field in exposed plastic armour, an unpainted aluminium shield and white sneakers, she'd ask for her favour back until I cleaned up. And rightfully so. Just as my knight would be right to take back my belt if I were sitting at troll greeting newcomers with profanity and rudeness. In both cases, I'd be discourteous and apallingly indifferent of the feelings of those around me- which is unknightly.

So maybe populace polls to ask our spectators what THEY think might be in order, too- after all, just like pop-cans, mundane tee-shirts at an otherwise period camp and white sneakers on the field can jar someone out of their suspended disbelief that they HAVE, in fact, traveled back in time, if only for a few minutes, so- often- does knee-fighting.

[Magnus Ulfgarsson]

I think not. Doing honour to our selves, our ladies, our spectators and our sport by wishing to appear clean, historically accurate and serious should not be seen as a failing of honour.

Agreed

[Count Johnathan]

10 pages of discussion and none of the points regarding the perceived deficiencies have been addressed by anyone?

Really?

I think they have repeatedly. You have also been given some explanation as to how and why things worked out this way and several different opinions about why we should or shouldn't adopt a different system. How did you miss all that?

I think you are simply disregarding them.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

10 pages of discussion and none of the points regarding the perceived deficiencies have been addressed by anyone?

Really?

I think they have repeatedly. You have also been given some explanation as to how and why things worked out this way and several different opinions about why we should or shouldn't adopt a different system. How did you miss all that?

I think you are simply disregarding them.

My apologies. You're right in that several arguments have been made. I feel, personally, that none of them has stood up to scrutiny (and the immediate response will be "you mean YOUR scrutiny, Francisco"), but what I mean by that is that they have all been arguments based on what we FEAR MIGHT happen if we change the system.

-Several of these points have been illogical (IMO), in that they are based on the assumptiont hat counted blows somehow give incentive to the dishonest. I find these positions illogical in that it has not yet been explained WHY a self-interested free-rider personality would be MORE likely to cheat with a system that doesn't make them uncomfortable/silly-looking/disadvantaged as a punishment for honesty.

-The guys with the most experience with coutned blow systems have spoken to the bulk of the logical worries arising from concerns about folks not remembering the shots received, etc.

-The looking silly aspect... well, as someone who regularly works the sidelines at demos in addition to fighting, and as a friend of and participant with, several re-enactment groups outside of the Society, I can say empirically that knee-fighting hurts our recruitment.

-The medical aspect, I am waiting for responses from healthcare professionals, but so far the bulk of the nay-sayers on this point seem to be of the opinion that because they didn't blow their knees out WHILE kneeling, that knee-fighting has had no negative impact on the health of their joints. That's like saying that because I didn't have a heart attack WHILE eating my third pizza of the day, that eating 3 pizzas per day has had no negative effect on my heart.


The fact that it is neither historically nor medically accurate for either a tourney of ANY period, or a real fight, means simply that there is no argument to be made FOR it from a re-enactment/recreationist standpoint- ie., that there is no support for keeping it, with all (or even most) of the OTHER things being true.


So while several arguments have been made, not a one disproves any of the arguments against knee-fighting.

[Count Johnathan]

" re-enactment/recreationist standpoint "

That's the problem you are having. The SCA is not that. It will never be an accurate depiction of any specific time period using any specific medieval tournament model nor will it ever follow any historically accurate tournament rules or conventions of combat.

It is a modern sport with it's own specific rules and guidelines. It is unlike any other and it should not be desired for it to become like any other.

It is unique and we love it the way it is. Options and all.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

First page of the Society website:

"The SCA is an international organization dedicated to researching and re-creating the arts and skills..."


Also, I love my kids the way they are, but that doesn't mean that I'd be doing them a service by keeping them from growing as people.

(Tongue: Enter Cheek... Now.)

However, since you have agreed in principle to what I already stated was going to be my strategy and what seems to be the strategy of everyone advocating the optential new system, I have to say, Excellency, that it's beginning to look as if you're hoping to wear my Heretical ass down so that you can prosletize the orthodox catholic (catholic in the sense of being universal) view without some pesky protestant running around undermining the One True Way.

Unlikely, to say the least!

(Meant in good fun, milord.)

[Ogedei]

I think not. Doing honour to our selves, our ladies, our spectators and our sport by wishing to appear clean, historically accurate and serious should not be seen as a failing of honour.

Agreed

I don't know how this will make us appear more clean and do more honor to our ladies. It has the potential to look less clean.

It has the disadvantage of not allowing us to give up points of advantage to show chivalry to our fellow fighter. That in itself takes a lot from what SCA combat is.

Historically accurate is irrelevant. It has been pointed out that no one system of combat can accurately reflect the myriad cultures of the SCA. It has then been pointed out that system under discussion is not that nor is it trying to be that.

[Whitewolf Sr.]

"Advocating the OPTIONAL new system"?
I thought you didn't like *options* Francisco. Weren't options "silly"..ill-concieved and ignorent? Much like *tradition*,*the system*,*rules* and any other thing you don't like?

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

I think not. Doing honour to our selves, our ladies, our spectators and our sport by wishing to appear clean, historically accurate and serious should not be seen as a failing of honour.

Agreed

I don't know how this will make us appear more clean and do more honor to our ladies. It has the potential to look less clean.

It has the disadvantage of not allowing us to give up points of advantage to show chivalry to our fellow fighter. That in itself takes a lot from what SCA combat is.

Historically accurate is irrelevant. It has been pointed out that no one system of combat can accurately reflect the myriad cultures of the SCA. It has then been pointed out that system under discussion is not that nor is it trying to be that.

The statement was intended to address the overall theme of "humility" brought up earlier. And by cleaner, I meant physically cleaner- as in, not dressed in tattered, filthy rags.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

"Advocating the OPTIONAL new system"?
I thought you didn't like *options* Francisco. Weren't options "silly"..ill-concieved and ignorent? Much like *tradition*,*the system*,*rules* and any other thing you don't like?

I like tradition, just not when it's dogmatic.

I like MOST of the system but believe it could use tweaking.

I like many of the rules but want to play with others.

And I like options, I just think that currently, all but one are obscured by dogma and, yes, tradition.

And you, milord, are just trying to get my goat. You want him? Take him. Meanwhile, I'll be off testing boundaries and tweaking things becauseit is my heartfelt belief that stasis is death.

And for the record: My Knight has given me the most eloquent defenses I've yet heard for knee-fighting... Moving -yes, moving- statements on the sensation of overcoming adversity which he sees as being missing from all other systems of Medieval combat... And then, he proceeded to tell me that he'd test the Vitus System thoroughly, and challenged his brother knights to do the same. He maintains his position, but does it with his eyes open and his hands on his sword and shield, rather than over his ears.

I am truly sorry that you need to try and swing this away from the heart of the argument each and every time just because you want us kids off your lawn, but we ain't going anywhere.

[Whitewolf Sr.]

[quote="Francisco Lopez de Leon]

Yes, I know it's a physical game. That's where the bruises and occasional cracked bone come into it. But hobbling my knees to adhere to an ill-guided rule, made in ignorance to the reality of combat, 40 years ago, seems unnecessary.
.[/quote]

When you submit your proposition to change the rule through the PROPER channels, be sure and include the *above* tidbit. Good Luck!

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

[quote="Francisco Lopez de Leon]

Yes, I know it's a physical game. That's where the bruises and occasional cracked bone come into it. But hobbling my knees to adhere to an ill-guided rule, made in ignorance to the reality of combat, 40 years ago, seems unnecessary.
.[/quote]

When you submit your proposition to change the rule through the PROPER channels, be sure and include the *above* tidbit. Good Luck! [/quote]

I think it'd be hard for my opinion of the current rules NOT to come across in my writing, Excellency.

And I don't need luck.

What WE need is the tenacity to reach enough folks. If they agree, things will change. If they don't, We'll take legs as kills and fight In Modo/Vitus System against willing partners. You know: Our options!

[Whitewolf Sr.]

[quote="Francisco Lopez de Leon"][quote="Whitewolf Sr."][quote="Francisco Lopez de Leon]

Yes, I know it's a physical game. That's where the bruises and occasional cracked bone come into it. But hobbling my knees to adhere to an ill-guided rule, made in ignorance to the reality of combat, 40 years ago, seems unnecessary.
.[/quote]

When you submit your proposition to change the rule through the PROPER channels, be sure and include the *above* tidbit. Good Luck! [/quote]

I think it'd be hard for my opinion of the current rules NOT to come across in my writing, Excellency.

And I don't need luck.

What WE need is the tenacity to reach enough folks. If they agree, things will change. If they don't, We'll take legs as kills and fight In Modo/Vitus System against willing partners. You know: Our options! [/quote] I believe you have begun to "get it"!

From one who has been there: Don't "Buck" the system...."Use" the system. Submit your proposal through the proper channels...don't use pejoritive in your proposal....get the marshals on board (all of them) get the proposition to the "Marshal of the Society" and see how it flies. That would be the true test!

Kind regards:

Whitewolf KSCA, OL, OLA, OP , Etc. Etc. Etc.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

The fact that knee-fighting looks retarded had very little to do with why I originally gave it up. I was really, really good at it when I stopped doing it.

I originally stopped doing it because my knee armour was always being destroyed by knee fighting on ridiculous indoor surfaces- that was the beginning of it. I noticed that guys who wore big pants instead of visible leg armour did alot better during indoor tournaments.

Guys in full plate? Forget it- knee fighting in full plate is just, well, nearly impossible. Greaves pop out of place, guys sit on their spurs, sabatons are a non-starter.

I just don't see any advantage in keeping it. It's not that it's so goddamn stupid that it must be driven from the field. It's not that people who want to keep it are idiots (they aren't)- I just can't think of a reason for us to keep doing it other than "We've always done it."

We also used to wear carpet and freon cans- we moved on. I moved on. I don't care that I had to quit fighting in tournaments because of knee fighting. I did amazingly well in standard SCA combat, and after they knighted me I decided that I didn't have to do it anymore.

So I don't. I lost a huge section of my high-profile fighting life- I also don't care about that. I don't fight in Crown. I'm tired of sliding around on polished concrete floors. I'm tired of seeing fat guys struggle to get up and down from their knees. I'm tired of hearing about people quitting after destroying a knee or even two knees. I'm tired of ruining expensive knee armour by being forced to fight in parking lots (yes- parking lots) and other stupid crap like that.

It's my game too- I walked away from alot of potential glory from giving it up. I pay my membership fees. I paid my dues for 20 years. I have the right to refuse to ignore or enter any list that makes me do something that is bad for my knees, leg armour and (IMO) the dignity of the game.

As I have said a zillion times- I don't friggin' CARE who wants to do it, or who doesn't want to do it. All I know is that I ain't doing it.

[Whitewolf Sr.]

Bro. Sir Vitus....

[Count Johnathan]

And I don't need luck.

What WE need is the tenacity to reach enough folks. If they agree, things will change. If they don't, We'll take legs as kills and fight In Modo/Vitus System against willing partners. You know: Our options!

That's what you think. I tried to get rid of combat archery because it is unsafe, unfair, and unchivalrous crap meaning it is strictly and specifically against our rules. I know a LOT of people who feel that way yet the practice continues.

In short you do need luck so...

Good luck changing 40+ years worth of tradition just because you think it's stupid.

[Keegan Ingrassia]

That's what you think. I tried to get rid of combat archery because I feel it is unsafe, unfair, and unchivalrous crap meaning it is strictly and specifically against our rules. I know a LOT of people who feel that way yet the practice continues.

In short you do need luck so...

Good luck changing 40+ years worth of tradition just because you think it's stupid.

FTFY.

Also, bollocks. If one weapon or fighting style were so superior to all others as to be 'unfair', we'd all be fighting single-sword. Disadvantages and advantages to all, sir. Adapt to your opponent. That includes, among their habits, patterns, tactics, and tells, the weapon they use.

As for the unsafe/unchivalrous crap...this has been covered elsewhere. We're sprechen on da knee fightin', savvy?

I'd happily get rid of knee fighting. As is, I take it as a kill, rather than rip up my hosen and bang up my poleyns. That, and I'd like to be able to get on the ground with my grand kids, and be able to get back up afterwards, someday.

[Count Johnathan]

I assumed that nobody could resist that. That's the point though. I do think those things of that subject and I do know many MANY folks all across the entire SCA in every single kingdom who despise it. Still it continues so even if some folks hate it as long as there is a significant body of those who like it it will still be around.

And for what it's worth could you explain in what manner CA is chivalrous? I mean really define what is chivalrous about it and then I will consider it an opinion. As of yet nobody has been able to do that.

[Baron Alejandro]

That is because you refuse to see any other point of view, because you are entirely unsympathetic to what they do.

Want to get rid of combat archery? I'll tell you exactly how. Sit your County hide out of CA battles. Your Excellency. I don't fight in Woods Battles, either - I loathe them.

TADAAAAAA

Want to get rid of of knee fighting? Take legs as kills (I try to do it as often as possible).

TADAAAAAA


Incessant, pointless arguments do not change minds or gain honor, but rather paints oneself as a bickering, screeching fishwife. I mind the words of that great Knight of my House, Sir Mordreth;

Deeds feed ravens. Words feed trolls.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

Su Excelencia is correct. We've argued this to death. I know what I'm doing, as do my confederates in this endeavour. That's all I need. See you all in the "Testing" thread to discuss THE IMPLEMENTATION AND TESTING of the system, not the ASSUMED merits/foibles of each different system.

Muchas Gracias.

[Count Johnathan]

That is because you refuse to see any other point of view, because you are entirely unsympathetic to what they do.

Want to get rid of combat archery? I'll tell you exactly how. Sit your County hide out of CA battles. Your Excellency. I don't fight in Woods Battles, either - I loathe them.

TADAAAAAA

Want to get rid of of knee fighting? Take legs as kills (I try to do it as often as possible).

TADAAAAAA


Incessant, pointless arguments do not change minds or gain honor, but rather paints oneself as a bickering, screeching fishwife. I mind the words of that great Knight of my House, Sir Mordreth;

Deeds feed ravens. Words feed trolls.

Hey BA get over it. Calontir (where you are from) is the only kingdom that I feel has done the best to keep it as safe as possible so get bent. I have noted that previously. Figure it out.

And I must add. You still couldn't do it. Don't worry nobody ever has.

[Baron Alejandro]

That's the thing. I <i>have</i> figured it out and gotten over it. I take what parts I like and let the rest to others who enjoy it. It's not <i>my</i> Society, nor would I want it to be.

As to convincing you about combat archery, you're right, I couldn't do it, because it is just as impossible to hold water in a bucket with a hole in the bottom. Foolish to even try.

To be clear, I called you no names nor told you to get bent. I admit to sarcastically telling you to act your station and title, Your Excellency.

And I shall say no more on this.

[Count Johnathan]

Good. Wrong thread LOL

[Wolffram Mikosevaar]

Never give up the fight.

Never.....

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

Never have.


To quote Animal, "I just won't lie down"

[Count Johnathan]

Never give up the fight.

Never.....

ATEN 101

FIGHTERS NOT TARGETS

CHIVALRY IS NOT OPTIONAL

RESIST OR BE SHOT

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

Count Jonathan: as an aside, I will admit to having been made to understand how you feel on this subject, by a grief exchange elsewhere.. I think that the word "irregardless" is a travesty and an abomination on the language I love.... and yet, I've had to concede that through common usage it has entered the language whether I like it or not.

It may not seem like a big deal, but as a writer it means a lot to ME..

As a historian, I have to concede that this is how language changes and evolves... but that doesn't mean that the writer in me has to be happy with it.

Just wanted to say, sorry if my position has caused you this kind of upset. I won't recant, but I understand- if that helps.

[Count Johnathan]

I'm not mad at you if that's what you think.

I was enjoying the pleasant discussion regardless of our contrary positions on the subject.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

I'm not mad at you if that's what you think.

I was enjoying the pleasant discussion regardless of our contrary positions on the subject.

As was I- but I can understand (the more so since my Knight's eloquent and impassioned responses on my FB account) the depth of the sentiment involved and the sense of diminishment that you're talking about feeling.

I just wanted you to know that I can sympathize a little better at the moment than I could when the conversation started.

[Count Johnathan]

That was the point of the discussion. No way to know what effect a change of ideas might have without asking.

It is better to know before taking action. I learned that the hard way.