The Armour Archive

This game we have been playing for over 40 years doesn't cater to my every desire. Could we change it please?

Come on guys give me a break. This is a silly debate.

You have options and can still participate either way. Use them or don't it's your choice.

If you want to be dead from a leg shot that's fine. I understand it. If you want to use the option of accepting the penalty of dropping to your knees or hopping around on one foot so you can continue to fight and maybe achieve the victory then do that. I don't see the point of the debate. If your options were limited I could understand it but they aren't. You can participate with limited or no interruption from knee fighting. It doesn't have to negatively affect your game.

Why don't we discuss how stupid combat archery is in melees? Now that can seriously limit your options IMO. Either skip battles that have it or get shot. Boy both of those options suck don't they? Not like the options you have over leg shots now is it?

I'm not convinced that a two blows to a non-kill zone and one blow to a kill zone system adequately penalizes the recipient. Currently you earn an advantage that happens when you strike an opponent's limb. In this proposed system they have an equal opportunity to come back with a killing blow. Sure, they need to ward the limbs more carefully, but otherwise it's a clean slate.

Do you reset after inflicting a blow on the limb or continue with the flurry?

Count Johnathan wrote:This game we have been playing for over 40 years doesn't cater to my every desire. Could we change it please?

Come on guys give me a break. This is a silly debate.

You have options and can still participate either way. Use them or don't it's your choice.

If you want to be dead from a leg shot that's fine. I understand it. If you want to use the option of accepting the penalty of dropping to your knees or hopping around on one foot so you can continue to fight and maybe achieve the victory then do that. I don't see the point of the debate. If your options were limited I could understand it but they aren't. You can participate with limited or no interruption from knee fighting. It doesn't have to negatively affect your game.

Why don't we discuss how stupid combat archery is in melees? Now that can seriously limit your options IMO. Either skip battles that have it or get shot. Boy both of those options suck don't they? Not like the options you have over leg shots now is it?

Count Jonathan: If this was the same game that we'd been playing for 40 years, that argument would have mroe weight, sorry to say. However,. we're contantly tweaking it. That's why I can't wear one of Baron Gerhardt Kendall of Westmoreland's leather helms in heavy lists. Also why Nissan's no longer running around in what I'm pretty sure was two elbow-cops, a barrel helm and maybe -maybe- a jock. Also why we don't register Elvish names anymore, or why the Knowne Worlde Handbook no longer tells people to wear Simplicity fantasy patterns instead of actual Medieval garb because, and I paraphrase here, "medieval garb isn't very flattering..."

Something sucks/doesn't work/gets us sued, we tweak it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it fails spectacularly... ABDs come to mind. Hate those things. I liked it better when an archer could hit me with an arrow capped with washers that would brise me good and proper when I got hit.. oh, and flew straight. It happens.

Armor got better because folks were getting knocked out or injured. We learned.

Fighting from your knees is different. You have always had the option of doing it or not. It doesn't suck to have the option. I don't see your point and you seem to have missed mine completely.

You want to eliminate other peoples options. If knee fighting is removed the option is gone you understand right? However if it is an available option you can still play and you don't have to do it!

What sucks/doesn't work/gets us sued about that?

Sucks to have options? Having options doesn't work? Who's suing who over knee fighting?

And you can still wear a simple fantasy pattern outfit as long as your making a reasonable attempt at medieval garb and call yourself Drizzt if you want too. You can have a hard time passing a period english name if the heralds are grumpy that day. The game is still the same even if some of our materials and options for period influance have improved dramatically.

I say use your options. Use the one that suits you best and doesn't disrupt the game.

Josh W wrote:I hate the look of knee fighting, too, but I think the indestructible shields are more of a detriment to the game. Maybe we'd see people actually bother to learn other weapon systems if your shield were only good for stopping three solid hits. Sure, it's an arbitrary rule that is only a distant reflection of reality, but so is every other rule in the game.

Josh,
Not that it has anything to do with the topic of knee fighting:

I did a little back-yard empirical testing of wooden shields that probably wouldn't have met with even 'mythbusters' level of accuracy but I found that a planked poplar shield (basic 3/4" boards with an angle miter and some elmers glue) held up to a pakistani sword for well in excess of 3 stout blows. It probably could have received 3 stout sword blows to each generalized location and been adequately servicible. I'm inclined to think that it could have received 3 stout lance strikes and still been servicible and if properly constructed lasted longer. Quarter sawn planks laminated with fabric and gesso are probably strong enough to last infantry through an entire day of 'combat' (mostly shielding from arrows followed by 30 seconds of brutality and one side retreating) if not more.

Do we have any evidence or documentation of how long shields lasted?

Also wouldn't you think that a few chips out of a small shield would be an issue but a few chips from the edges of a pavise not very noticeable. Should we give the larger shields more 'hit-points'? (God I hate the sound of that word within the SCA)

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:*snip*

BE IT RESOLVED: that those of us favouring the newly minted Sir Vitus System of Blow Acknowledgement will hereafter attempt to advance the use of this system inasmuch as we are able.

*snip*

It's a good system but if we have to select and use 1 commonly I would advocate 3 stout blows to any location on the body covered by maile or plate or 1 thrust to a location covered by maile or 1 stout blow or thrust to a bar-grill or location without armor (by omision plate is proof to thrusts)... which is what I think the COT-30 rules boiled down to (stout blow may or may not have included single handed swords, can't remember). I know that it favors wearing visible armor in at least a 14th century style but as a benefit it favors wearing visible armor in at least a 14th century style.

If anyone shook my hand at a tourney and said 'nice kit. Wanna play by Cot30 rules' I would smille so hard my helm would stretch and I would accept in a heart beat. (well I would double check that I remembered the rules correctly and then I would fight)

Sean

Count Jonathan:

I don't know if you only skimmed some of the earlier posts I made about WHY it's important, IMO, to raise the matter mroe formally, so I'll reiterate:

Right now it's an *option* to SOME, but the written word of GOD to most.
Institutionalization is stronger, in a lot of cases, than simple edicts.
Unless knee-fighting is relegated to the "optional rules" section of the Marshall's Handbook, it will continue to be taught to newbies as "The way we do things"- not as "an option". The strength of "tradition" makes all sorts of silly ideas stick around long after they've stopped making any sense whatsoever. THAT's why it's not a silly discussion. THAT's why the other options should, at least occasionally, be forced into the limelight.

As to the cost/benefit ledger for kneefighting?

It hurts our appearance to the public.

It hurts our reputaion in the re-enactment community.

It is, unless we standardize armour that protects us from the potentially harmful effects (some armour is and some armour isn't capable of doing this) of knee-fighting, injurious to the combatants.

It is not in keeping with any tennet of the society regarding accuracy.

What does it add to the sport?

It slows many (not all- many) fights to a crawl as we all try to hit the kneeling dude with the giant freaking shield.

Not a fair trade.

Sean, unfortunately "armour as worn" WOULD break the rules in favour of late-period guys- to the point of making it useless for nearly anyone else to try and fight them. Which is where we run into a balance between outright accuracy and keeping it fun.

By making it One blow to the body, two to the limbs, we somehwat mitigate Duke Logan's worry that a n00b isn't even going to land 3 on ME before I can pound him like a tent-peg, much less on any knight who's still active.

We also keep the system about individual skill, rather than about how much money I can put into kit.

Armour as worn, plate is proof agauinst single-handed swords and thrusts, and count to three blows? That means that, in cap-a-pie, I could currently best a good number of Royal Peers with migration-high medieval era personas.

That's wrong. I ain't that good, and I wanna have to work for it.

Rule by might of arms is a morally dubious enough philosophy, without compounding it with rule by right of pocketbook.

Wooden shields can take a lot of abuse. I made a 1/2 inch thick, oak-and-glue, wooden shield with a leather cover, and for my one-and-only A&S competition, tried to destroy it with an axe.

I hit it 20 times. It was still useable and I even SOLD IT later, AFTER someone saw the video. The leather was cut a bit, that's it.

Shields are annoying to me, but victory wouldn't come from destroying the shield IMO. Your weapon could get stuck in the shield if you penetrated it, etc...

Now IF we allowed lower leg targets, I think the shields would start changing and people would start fighting more in "historical" ranges. But having my shins, with padding and full stainless greaves whacked in an experiment, I wouldn't like lower leg targeting. Even well protected and ready, it stung.

And when we used lower leg targeting, it didn’t really change the mechanics very much with pole-arm vs. pole-arm. If they went low, you went high and vice versa. It might change pole-arm vs. shield fighting IMO, but we didn’t try that one.

I don't like knee fighting, and I would suggest banning it from demos only to help with recruiting, but an outright ban isn't likely.

Now starting SCA events that are counted blows, for the entire event, that might work. Recruit those who would like to do counted blows or armour as worn or something. Eventually I would like to do something like that.

With respect,

-Aaron

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:Armour as worn, plate is proof agauinst single-handed swords and thrusts, and count to three blows? That means that, in cap-a-pie, I could currently best a good number of Royal Peers with migration-high medieval era personas.

That's wrong. I ain't that good, and I wanna have to work for it.

Rule by might of arms is a morally dubious enough philosophy, without compounding it with rule by right of pocketbook.

The rule of pocketbook is very historical. And NO time period had it's nobles dressed in anything less than plate and/or mail when they fought. That's from King David all the way to the Queen's Knights for Queen Elisabeth from Samurai (lots of plate and some mail) to even the Conquestidors in Mexico. It would be a level playing field for all, except for the pocketbook.


Humor follows:
___________________

Historically a well armoured noble should "surf" through the "serfs" dressed in cloth and leather. Surfs up, on serfs dressed like smurfs in their exposed pickle barrel!

______________

End of humor break

And mail is becoming less expensive and plate isn't that expensive IMO.

Historically it should be a slaughter for the plate and mail fighters vs. the unarmoured. But we have "one standard" overall, and that's fine. For special events I think armour-as-worn, plate-and-mail, counted-blows and other styles are fine.

-Aaron

Count Jonathan - do you have anything to do add in favor of knee fighting other than"we've always done it that way" and "don't harsh other people's mellow man", the twin hydras that anyone wishing to improve things in the Society must ultimately face?

I apologize if the above sounds harsh, but these do not seem to me to be a strong defense when faced with all of the negatives the practice entails. Even the current SCA deems it necessary, at times, to restrict the actions of others for a greater perceived good. "You can choose to be disadvantaged" is similarly a weak rejoinder. So long as there is something to be gained by victory in our martial endeavors - and there is, both tangible and intangible - it behooves us to continue to move incrementally toward a system that is challenging, fun, and it greater accord with our Charter.

Having the option is the way we do things Francisco. If you don't like it don't do it. If you do then do.

Please don't attempt to change the game I love because you don't want new people to be told how we have been functioning for over 40 years or because you care about what the other re-enactment groups might think. Oh my how terrible...

I don't care about what the other re-enactment groups think of us. They aren't us and they already consider our game to be stupid regardless. I disagree that it hurts our appearance to the public to have our own sport with our own rules that have been fully funtional for decades. But that is completely opinion based on both sides of the discussion though as you and I have no definitive proof of such an issue harming or helping our game.

Right now it's an *option* for everyone just as it always has been. It is very fair to have options that allow for participation without game disruption regardless of which option you choose to incorporate.

Aaron: exactly- for Special Events, Armour-as-worn is fantastic.. but as I said above, we also have to balance with fun for all.

Whereas, with the exceptions of a few hardcore, dyed-in-the-wool traditionalists, nobody would really lose anything by shifting to the Vitus System, Armour-as-worn would grossly handicap anyone not capable of buying plate or mail.

And you might not find steel that expensive, but I can assure you that MANY people do.

Between housing payments, childcare and student loans, I will not be able to buy cap-a-pie for the better part of a decade.

Also, you're then turning it into the Society for Creative Anachronism Within the Very Short Period Before 1600 During Which Full Plate Was Worn.

Because anything else would be suicide.

how about:


Whereas: hay bales cause the most injuries and are potentially injurious to the fighter involved and

Whereas: It is, by virtue of wearing undisquised modern items such as visable plastic, tennis shoes, blue jeans, and sitting in coleman chairs, being aesthetically and mechanically ridiculous, potentially harmful to recruitment and

Whereas: fighting with unpadded polearms, face punching with an axe, magical arrows that destroy their targets and madus are neither historically accurate, nor an accurate phsyiological representation of given or sustained on the battlefield against the warrior elite and

Whereas: engagement does not counterbalance these shortcomings by conferring any appreciable benefit whatsoever to either the combatants or the to the spectacle of SCA heavy combat, therefore

BE IT RESOLVED: that those of us favouring the newly minted Duke Logan System of All Things Right and Proper so says Meself! will hereafter attempt to advance the use of this system inasmuch as we are able.


oh, and no hitting the logan....... ever.....

regards
logan

Count Jonathan: Nobody is talking about storming the BOD and demanding that they change the rules.

I'm suggesting that those of us who despise this ridiculous and antiquated aspect of our game simply be more proactive in bringing hte other OPTIONS into the limelight.

Helping newbies to UNDERSTAND that there ARE other options, since so many don't.

Note how I said that I'd make it an edict FOR MY HYPOTHETICAL REIGN ONLY... to show folks their... wait for it... OPTIONS.

Do I want to change this tradition because I think it's useless as tits on a boarhog? Yes.

But am I determined to help it along organically rather than try and ram it through and lord it over the entire society? No. Even if it WAS in my power, it would be a dick move.

So, Please Don't limit MY ability to educate newbies and get folks to consider alternatives just because you're a reactionary who "loves his game just the way it is, thank you very much".

That's Dogmatism. And yes, I will oppose it at every turn. Sorry. just the way I am.

Vettor Venier wrote:Count Jonathan - do you have anything to do add in favor of knee fighting other than"we've always done it that way" and "don't harsh other people's mellow man", the twin hydras that anyone wishing to improve things in the Society must ultimately face?

I apologize if the above sounds harsh, but these do not seem to me to be a strong defense when faced with all of the negatives the practice entails. Even the current SCA deems it necessary, at times, to restrict the actions of others for a greater perceived good. "You can choose to be disadvantaged" is similarly a weak rejoinder. So long as there is something to be gained by victory in our martial endeavors - and there is, both tangible and intangible - it behooves us to continue to move incrementally toward a system that is challenging, fun, and it greater accord with our Charter.

Traditions make us who we are. They give us our identity and seperate us from the rest of the wad. Having the option has always been the way and it has always worked. If it isn't broken don't fix it.

Expressing that all participants have the option to continue to fight disadvantaged or to accept a telling blow as a loss is a poor response that doesn't resolve whatever negativity you feel exists with the practice? Seriously? Suddenly having the ability to participate with options that don't disrupt the game for you or your opponent is a bad thing? Sorry. Nobody will ever be able to convince me of that. Choosing not to do it because you don't have to but you can still fight sounds like the best of both worlds. Now if you were being told that no matter what you had to fight from your knees or you wouldn't be allowed to fight with us would be bad but that is not the case and so the debate and the argument is unwarranted. It would not improve upon our game to remove options that enable participation regardless of method.

Francisco Lopez de Leon wrote:Count Jonathan: Nobody is talking about storming the BOD and demanding that they change the rules.

I'm suggesting that those of us who despise this ridiculous and antiquated aspect of our game simply be more proactive in bringing hte other OPTIONS into the limelight.

Helping newbies to UNDERSTAND that there ARE other options, since so many don't.

Note how I said that I'd make it an edict FOR MY HYPOTHETICAL REIGN ONLY... to show folks their... wait for it... OPTIONS.

Do I want to change this tradition because I think it's useless as tits on a boarhog? Yes.

But am I determined to help it along organically rather than try and ram it through and lord it over the entire society? No. Even if it WAS in my power, it would be a dick move.

So, Please Don't limit MY ability to educate newbies and get folks to consider alternatives just because you're a reactionary who "loves his game just the way it is, thank you very much".

That's Dogmatism. And yes, I will oppose it at every turn. Sorry. just the way I am.

No need to oppose me for loving the game the way it is. I agree tell everyone they have always had the option so that they don't get pissy and complain because they hate knee fighting for whatever reason. Educate them all.

What I am disagreeing with is your statement of wanting to change tradition because you think it is useless or whatever. If you have always had the option then that is the tradition. If you agree that folks should have options then restructure your statement to reflect that. Changing the tradition of having the option to do it this way or that way is in direct contradiction with some of what you are saying.

I don't think we are at odds here I simply think we might be misunderstanding one another.

If, for some cosmic twist of fate, I had the time, skill, desire, money and blessing of my wife to fight and win crown, could I require plate and mail be the standard for all enterants into the next Crown tournament?

1. Must be documented to Europe of 600-1600 AD.
2. Plate and mail must be in the armour, as a major feature, not as a mail bikini over plastic (see #1 for documentation).

Would this be allowed?

-Aaron

We may not directly limit people's ability to choose another way of doing this, but we provide a pretty hefty disincentive to experiment if the knee-guy gets another chance AND better protection from the "don't wanna take a knee" guy.. So the cycle continues. Like I said.. we try it out across a broader demographic by making it a "reign-rule", and if people like it, then we'll see more tourneys being cried this way. People can thereafter vote with their feet, as it were. You know, explore their OPTIONS

Also, you keep missing the part where, no matter what it says in the Marshall's, what ppl get taught "is the way we do things" will continue to carry the day if nothing is done about it. Think of the other "Options" as plants trying to grow in a forest... but they are smothered under the mighty oak of knee-fighting that has been growing these last 40 years.

Chop everything down to te same level and let them compete. That's all I'm advocating.

Gay marriage will not destroy the traditional family and counted blows for 6 months in An-Tir will not destroy the identity of the SCA.

And Duke Logan: One thing at a time, Your Grace! One thing at a time!

Aaron wrote:If, for some cosmic twist of fate, I had the time, skill, desire, money and blessing of my wife to fight and win crown, could I require plate and mail be the standard for all enterants into the next Crown tournament?

1. Must be documented to Europe of 600-1600 AD.
2. Plate and mail must be in the armour, as a major feature, not as a mail bikini over plastic (see #1 for documentation).

Would this be allowed?

-Aaron

Yep. Just like in An-Tir the Kings often decide that shields larger than certain dimensions are outlawed for tourneys, or that you can't fight with a weapon that you can't document for your place/time (so MANY vikings with madus- something HAD to be done), and how Atlantia has already decided no plastic or sneakers on the field. Ever.

dukelogan wrote:how about:


Whereas: hay bales cause the most injuries and are potentially injurious to the fighter involved and

Whereas: It is, by virtue of wearing undisquised modern items such as visable plastic, tennis shoes, blue jeans, and sitting in coleman chairs, being aesthetically and mechanically ridiculous, potentially harmful to recruitment and

Whereas: fighting with unpadded polearms, face punching with an axe, magical arrows that destroy their targets and madus are neither historically accurate, nor an accurate phsyiological representation of given or sustained on the battlefield against the warrior elite and

Whereas: engagement does not counterbalance these shortcomings by conferring any appreciable benefit whatsoever to either the combatants or the to the spectacle of SCA heavy combat, therefore

BE IT RESOLVED: that those of us favouring the newly minted Duke Logan System of All Things Right and Proper so says Meself! will hereafter attempt to advance the use of this system inasmuch as we are able.

Count me as a signatory.

We have a multi-Barony rotating weekly tourney starting up soon - I'll see if I can get people excited about trying The Sir Vitus System, within, of course, the Duke Sir Logan of All Things Right and Proper. So, umm, the TSVSDSLALRP alternative ruleset.

(even the acronym threatens to break my keyboard)

Count Johnathan wrote:

Traditions make us who we are. They give us our identity and seperate us from the rest of the wad. Having the option has always been the way and it has always worked. If it isn't broken don't fix it.

Would you support the Knighting of a person who chose not to fight from their knees because they found it distasteful, if said persons skill at arms and exemplar behavior met or exceeded the "standards" for knighthood?

War Crown was tried ONCE in An Tir, and the fellow got banned (not for that I've heard).

It seems that if you deviate from the norm, you have a larger chance of ending up squashed. This is true of all societies BTW.

With respect,

-Aaron

To quote my martial arts instructor Sonny Titsworth during a sparring session after he Kicked a molar out of my mouth and i went scrambling to pick it up. "fight aint over Bitch" thank you sonny

dukelogan wrote:i agree. you snooze you lose.

regards
logan

olaf haraldson wrote:I feel like I should have blocked...
I was raised in the don't stop till the fight is over school. I keep blocking after I've taken a telling blow as good too...

Maeryk wrote:How do people feel about that "vertical snap to the faceplate" move someone throws while dropping to their knees, cause you backed up enough to let them fall without crowding them?

Francisco's Hypothetical Reign's Rules of Combat in the Crown and Coronet Lists/Heavy Champion's Lists for all Branches of An-Tir:

Must Have a Persona. "Sort-of-Hyberno-Celtic-Arab-Norse-Varangian-Samurai-named-Bob-the-Unavoury" is not a persona. It is a travesty.

10-foot Rule: From 10 feet away, you must appear to be a documentable representation of a fighting man (or woman) of your period and location.
Visible Plastic or modern shoes will get you beaten. Not in a fun way. The crown will RELUCTANTLY AND WITH MANY DISAPPROVING SOUNDS AND HEADSHAKES allow exposed plastic on basket-hilts.

This includes period weapons and shields.

The Homework: Bring the Documentation on which you based your kit. Yes, I'll accept Photocopies.

Sir Vitus System WILL APPLY.

Chairs/sunshades/pavillions/hats around the Erik will be period. period.


Lay On, you Poozers.

Aaron: That was Count Sir Aveloc the Younger, now Aveloc Twiceborn of the Empire for Medieval Pursuits.

War-Crown was a GREAT idea, and everyone who participated loved it, from the feedback I've heard.

Aveloc's EMP, btw, uses Counted blows. I think it's three telling blows, or one "substantial" blow... they also grapple, punch and kick. Looks like a hoot, truth be told! Wanna try it, just to play. also.. bear-pit tournaments in a RING OF FIRE. yeah. pretty hardcore

As for the why of his getting R&D'd... that's a more complicated and politically charged issue than even I'm willing to get into on here. But yeah, War-Crown was part of it. Rule got changed right after his reign and subsequent banishment, to clarify that the BoD will accept only INDIVIDUAL combat for a Crown Tourney.

Ulric wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote:

Traditions make us who we are. They give us our identity and seperate us from the rest of the wad. Having the option has always been the way and it has always worked. If it isn't broken don't fix it.

Would you support the Knighting of a person who chose not to fight from their knees because they found it distasteful, if said persons skill at arms and exemplar behavior met or exceeded the "standards" for knighthood?

Yes. It wouldn't be an issue. This is my point.

Count Johnathan wrote:It is not a positive dimension. It is a penalty for crappy defense. Don't want to be on your knees? Block better.

+1

We just don't need to act out wounds anymore in tournaments. People start bitching about my system (which I have used in practice ever since I was knighted- I will NOT fight in a scenario that forces me to knee fight) because they think it won't work in wars. It may not. However, it WILL work in all tourney formats.

Removing the knee and arm thing just gets us closer to what they did. The point of this sport is to get as close as we can to what they did. In the late 1960's people used to think that bladed weapons magically cut through armour.

The Originators were actually trying to be accurate!!

We have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Master Galleron was right when he said that even higher numbers of blows (3-5) are probably more accurate, but the Vitus Way

1. Doesn't slow down the action- no real need for pauses.
2. No asking if you can keep fighting with your good hand (dangling your shield) because YOU ARE NOT PREPAIRED TO SWITCH HANDS ANY GODDAMN WAY!!!!!!
3. No conversations about being comfortable or about who is staring into the sun.
4. Eliminates the need for elbow cops beneath these barn door shields. If your elbow doesn't stick out past your shield, why wear an elbow cop there?


Acting out wounds has always added a certain low level of drama to high-profile tournaments. Well, I don't think it friggin matters.

You want drama? If you get hit in the arm you can seperate and the Marshall can call out to the crowd "A Limb!" ooooo, ahhhhh.

Hitting a guy and waiting for him to do his switcheroo thing isn't any different than if you just went on from there. A counted limb blow gives the same type of advantage as a limb blow acted out. Some guys are amazing knee fighters....I guess that may be a thing to whine about.

Nobody loses anything- the system only GIVES gets us cool stuff and simultaneously takes away stupid stuff.

Ashraf wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote:It is not a positive dimension. It is a penalty for crappy defense. Don't want to be on your knees? Block better.

+1

Unless you're Logan, then it's a nearly guaranteed Win because you're a machine from teh ground, with a nice big shield.

Guy I used to fight with called Duncan the Rat used to leave his leg open all the time- largely because people stopped taking it. Fighting that man from his knees was a fool's errand and the quickest way fo get him to "Matrix-dodge" your shot (always a wrap, because he left nothing open in his stance and spring up to hammer you.

That's fine. He knew how to work the game's rules as they stood. Nothing wrong with that.

But it points out the basic fallacy of your reasoning here.

Ulric wrote:

Count Johnathan wrote:

Traditions make us who we are. They give us our identity and seperate us from the rest of the wad. Having the option has always been the way and it has always worked. If it isn't broken don't fix it.

Would you support the Knighting of a person who chose not to fight from their knees because they found it distasteful, if said persons skill at arms and exemplar behavior met or exceeded the "standards" for knighthood?

In your example what did he do when he was struck in the leg? not take it? take it as a death?
If they just took legs shots as deaths and was still being talked about in the circle because of his skill i would not have a problem with this person.

Balin

Mockery hurts anyone's cause. This new waf is the bomb, but I could get real nostalgic for sweats and a t-tunic at the drop of a teleberet.

Inspire, don't mock, don't dictate. And yes, those are things it is hard for me not to do sometimes as well.

How can this be shared?

Go Vitus!!!

Regards

Avery

Balin50 wrote:
In your example what did he do when he was struck in the leg? not take it? take it as a death?
If they just took legs shots as deaths and was still being talked about in the circle because of his skill i would not have a problem with this person.

Balin

Correct, taking legs as kills.

However, at least from some(chiv) that I've spoken to, taking legs as kills is "not how the game is played" and would greatly hurt such a person's chance of elevation- which makes me sad- I am glad that not all think that way.

I think Sir Vitus' idea sounds wonderful, so much so that I changed my sigy.

dukelogan wrote:how about:


Whereas: hay bales cause the most injuries and are potentially injurious to the fighter involved and

Whereas: It is, by virtue of wearing undisquised modern items such as visable plastic, tennis shoes, blue jeans, and sitting in coleman chairs, being aesthetically and mechanically ridiculous, potentially harmful to recruitment and

Whereas: fighting with unpadded polearms, face punching with an axe, magical arrows that destroy their targets and madus are neither historically accurate, nor an accurate phsyiological representation of given or sustained on the battlefield against the warrior elite and

Whereas: engagement does not counterbalance these shortcomings by conferring any appreciable benefit whatsoever to either the combatants or the to the spectacle of SCA heavy combat, therefore

BE IT RESOLVED: that those of us favouring the newly minted Duke Logan System of All Things Right and Proper so says Meself! will hereafter attempt to advance the use of this system inasmuch as we are able.


oh, and no hitting the logan....... ever.....

regards
logan

Throw in the Vitus System in appendex A and you got my support...

I'd like to think the perhaps unintended theme of this thread is on looking at options outside of the current "default' system which doesn’t have knee fighting in it but is still simple to use. It looks to me we have an idea for a system that would warrant testing at events. It would be nice to have some of us here try it at fighter practices and even see a few future event holders step up and be willing to devote some time to trying out this system. That is the only way we’ll see if it really works out well and if it catches on so be it.

I mean come on, what's the worst that can happen?...

I'll post a write-up of the foot tournament (it's in very large part an equestrian event, thus the distinction) at Hocktide Emprise (An Tir) in late April. With "one telling killzone blow -OR- two to the extremities = defeat" and a different weapon form dictated each round, this should be a good test of some new ideas.

Oh, and Lord Brizio (knitebee here on AA...) and I are going to fight an armor-as-worn bout at the Emprise, just for fun. Of course, that's a disincentive for him to finish my new cuirass... =P