SCA Legal Issues from Kingdom to Kingdom

Torc · Post by **Torc** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 5:34 pm

Though I have been fighting in the SCA for over 4 years now, it has not been until recently that I have been running into the irritating issue of what is and is not legal from one kingdom to another. I have been in three kingdoms and this is quite common.

Does the SCA have a system that a kingdom can submit a object to the main office, such as silo-flex covers for swords, and have it accepted by the head people, thus making it legal to use in any kingdom?

I have heard from traveling fighters that they have had to make major changes or deletions of armour, weapons, and styles because in their kingdom it was legal, but not so in another. This seems much like the USA and it's laws. The Nation as one set of laws, a state another and each state different. Pretty confusing and aggitateing to say the least.

Just wondering.

Torc

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 5:45 pm

Traveling is different than moving.

A kingdom is supposed to allow a fighter who is VISITING to use their own standards. For example, in Ansteorra we don't require 1/2 gauntlets with basket hilts, but we DO require vambraces. If I TRAVEL and VISIT a non-vam kingdom that requires 1/2 gauntlets, they're supposed to allow me to fight.

I think that would cover sword construction as well.

And as a side note, in travelling to 5 other kingdoms this year, I had zero trouble with their different standards not allowing me to fight.

But if you MOVE to a new kingdom, you are then required to go by the standards of your new home.

[This message has been edited by Morgan (edited 12-06-2001).]

Torc · Post by **Torc** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 5:49 pm

Hmmm, I was not aware of that. Makes sense though. I guess the tales I have been told were just people over zealous. LOL

Xanthier · Post by **Xanthier** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 7:41 pm

Yeah.. I've traveled to two other kingdoms this year. All I do is show them my card for my kingdom. If something is wrong with my armour to their standards they ask if it's legal in my home kingdom.. I say yes.. They let me play..

Just make sure you are legal for your home kingdom and you'll have no problems.

Aelric · Post by **Aelric** » Thu Dec 06, 2001 11:51 pm

When I first visited Calontir I was given a pamphlet called "The visiting fighters handbook" that explained all the local rules and what was expected of the fighters. I thought this was an excellent idea.

Aelric

Ulrich · Post by **Ulrich** » Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:07 am

actually i belive the rule for visiting another kingdom is,

you get to go by your armor standards, but must meet the weapon standards for the kingdom your visiting. i.e. if i being from Meridies visited a Kingdom that required metal vambraces, and a Lanyard on swords, I should be allowed to fight with leather vambraces, but, I would be required to put a lanyard on my sword.

hope that helps.

Ulrich

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:19 am

The rule is that a visiting fighter must meet the standard for the kingdom they are visiting from! I know this for a fact as I am a marshal and have seen many out of kingdom fighters visit events in my kingdom. However, not all marshals know this -I usually have to tell them (this has included royalty, chivalry, and earl marshals.)before they say "oh ya, I knew that."

I also have visited several kingdoms -of coarse once I say "I'm from the Middle Kingdom", they usually let me pass without an inpection. Go figure!!

(^_^)

Derian le Breton · Post by **Derian le Breton** » Fri Dec 07, 2001 2:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Ulrich:
you get to go by your armor standards, but must meet the weapon standards for the kingdom your visiting.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I've read on the web, this is correct, if you are visiting. Special events like inter-kingdom wars may have different rules (Pennsic certainly does), also, and of course enforcement varies...

Calontir has a nice webpage for visiting fighters.

-Donasian.

Ulrich · Post by **Ulrich** » Fri Dec 07, 2001 2:15 pm

yes Calontir's page is a great thing if your going to visit them, i went and checked it out before going to Lillies this past year.

as for the exceptions to the your armor their weapon standards, I think your right on about it being a special event/inter-kingdom war thing...Gulf Wars jumps to mind for down here.

Ulrich

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Fri Dec 07, 2001 5:03 pm

The tradition is that you get to go by your own kingdoms standards (or at least Society minimums) for armour (and at times for weapons). That said I don't see anything in the rules of the list that enforces the tradition.

http://members.sockets.net/~ksca/combat/armored/marshal_handbook.pdf

But I could be missing it.

A marshal can fail your armour at any time, even if it is technically correct. You have the right to appeal, but it won't help you at that moment.

While the diversity can be a problem, because it allows kindgoms some room to experament and test rules changes, its probably healthy for the system.

Asbjorn

Brodir · Post by **Brodir** » Sat Dec 08, 2001 12:50 am

An Tir used to have a lot of it's own weapon & armour standards, but recently reverted to Society minimums. Where else are they just using the Society minimums?

Pietro da San Tebaldo · Sat Dec 08, 2001 1:06 am

Middle Kingdom just went to "Society Standard" in the last couple of months.

------------------
"Or, a pall inverted surmounted by an orle Azure counterchanged"
mka: Sam Pearce

olaf haraldson · Post by **olaf haraldson** » Sat Dec 08, 2001 12:20 pm

East just went to SCA minimums as well.

sarnac · Post by **sarnac** » Sat Dec 08, 2001 4:56 pm

Not here in Ealdormere.

The differences are small but significant.

Armour is society minimum except that you must also cover the sternum and Xyphoid process.

AND

if you are in the Junior combat age group (16-17) you must wear Vambraces, cuises and full body armour.

Those are the only differences I know of.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Mon Dec 17, 2001 1:08 am

i know that at lillies your weapons must meet calontir standards (usually only non-calontir single hand swords will pass).

i know that calontir requires considerably more padding on mass weapons and thrusting tips and their thrusting tips have to be really soft without being wonky. and they do not allow rattan clickers on mass weapons.

the outlands is society minimum except that a rigid gorget is required. period! and half gaunts are required with a basket hilt, and hockey gloves must be reinforced with plate or plastic but the use of hockey gloves in any form is strongly discouraged but not illegal. and the outlands encourages that plastic be covered but doesn't require it.

but of course out of kingdom fighters need only to adhere to their kingdoms standards (outlands uses society minimums on weapons)