Gulf Wars - the complaining begins

[Cailin]

Stefan, lemme try.

There's a lot of us that play, all over the country. What JB was saying is, some of us play differently. If you travel much, you'll find that there are local flavors to the fighting. Reputations grow up around those flavors, but basically, some people expect to get hit harder than others.

What happens when you've trained for the past year or two in your kingdom's way of fighting, and you happen to be from one of the kingdoms that takes lighter shots, and you go off to your first big war, and run into someone from the kingdom that takes heavier stuff? For some new people, frustration sets in. Since they feel that what they are doing is sufficient to be a killing blow at home is being called light, then they feel that the other person is cheating.

This is a result of bad leadership within that person's army, unit, barony, what ever. People mimic the behavior of those that went before them. So if you have Baron Sir Illuminous von Tourneyfarb complaining that everyone from kingdom X or unit X or State X cheats, and you're a new guy that just experienced someone from that state calling your shots light, you are probably going to say everyone from X cheats.

I was lucky. I went from west to east, in a major way. I told my mentors I'd be fighting in Atlantia alot. They told me, "the game is a bit different in Atlantia. They're going to need a stouter blow." So, when I showed up to fight in atlantia, I did get frustrated that I couldn't get people to take shots that used to be killers, but because of good leadership, I did my best to look internally.

Hopefully that sheds a little bit of light on a small bit of our SCA culture.

[Kilkenny]

I am still pretty new to this game and I might be saying something daft here but I am going to say it anyway.

I do not understand the problem. If you hit someone and they feel the blow was not good then they do not call it and you carry on fighting. If they receive a hundred blows which they feel were light then they do not call any of them good and you continue fighting.

If I see someone take a good blow and they do not call it good then, as far as I am concerned, that is conclusive proof that I was wrong about it being good. Nothing more.

Am I missing something?

Not really

With lots more experience you may get to the point where you have run into some people whose calibration noticeably changes depending on who they are fighting (unbelted fighter can't beat 'em, knights barely need to touch 'em, for example).

There is, frankly, a political aspect to the game. "Our guys" do it right but "their guys" cheat. Comes up to varying degrees.

You're on the right track now and you should try to stay with it.

[Eirik]

If I see someone take a good blow and they do not call it good then, as far as I am concerned, that is conclusive proof that I was wrong about it being good. Nothing more.

Am I missing something?

No, Stefan, you are spot on. If you're new, then take this advice from someone who isn't.... Keep fighting this way and you'll have more fun.


I'ma make this observation.... if THIS is representative of what there is to bitch about from Gulf Wars, then it was the Best Gulf Wars Ever.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

Stefan: You've missed nothing. Good on you! keep it up.

[Fokke]

What has been said, its up to the fighters involved. I saw thrusts that looked decent too but then I wasnt the one getting hit by them. We all know in a melee we get hit all over the place when in the front line so if the shots were not solid hits to make them different from being jostled, and also not telling blows can you really blame the guy?

On a side note: Yet one more battle I am not in the video of (4 wars and running lol)

BTW on another side note: Is not yelling good, putting your weapon in the air and walking away not the universal sign of dead? I got hit rapid fire by a Calontir guy very stoutly in the helm about 4 times in the town battle, made eye contact, yelled good, had a clear avenue of retreat put my weapon high in the air, and started walking to the rez point. I made it about 2 feet before taking 5 extremely hard rapid fire shots to the back of the head, turning to find it was the same guy. I wont mention what I not so politely said to him but last I heard weapon in the air, back turned was a pretty good sign of being dead, especially when not in a press with no need to fall.

[Eirik]

I ran into many who decided that killing a dead guy was still a kill. I good naturedly saluted each and everyone and acknowledged their shot...

"Good!"
...

"Good, good and also good!"

I had a blast fighting... my cheeks hurt from all the smiling I did.

[blackbow]

Fokke: I had that discussion with the Calontir knight as well, in the context of the earlier discussion. But my take on it is this: the universal sign of being dead is to fall down. If you choose not to fall down (like I do) you will occasionally continue to get pummeled. I don't care. I make that choice every time I don't fall down. I got a really spiffy greatsword shot across my right calf immediately after two greatsword shots across my back.

My fault. I didn't fall down. Nobody's fault but mine. Same thing... if you don't fall down, they're going to keep hitting you, occasionally. I've been walking out of the scrum with my gauntlet over my head saying "dead dead dead dead" and gotten hit anyway. C'est la vie. I've even had people apologize for doing it. My response is "not your fault." I will not mess with anybody's training that says "hit the guy with the wrong color sticker".

For one thing, my armor and I can take quite a beating.

For another thing, I probably just charged and ran over about a dozen of them, and I'm sure they feel I deserve it, and I can't argue with them.

Blackbow

BTW on another side note: Is not yelling good, putting your weapon in the air and walking away not the universal sign of dead? I got hit rapid fire by a Calontir guy very stoutly in the helm about 4 times in the town battle, made eye contact, yelled good, had a clear avenue of retreat put my weapon high in the air, and started walking to the rez point. I made it about 2 feet before taking 5 extremely hard rapid fire shots to the back of the head, turning to find it was the same guy. I wont mention what I not so politely said to him but last I heard weapon in the air, back turned was a pretty good sign of being dead, especially when not in a press with no need to fall.

[Thorsteinn Raudskeggr]

I'm from the West, born and trained, and here's what I know about power generation.

I once fought a guy once, two days in a row. The first day was in the Coronet tourney, the next was in the Lord Defender of Cynagua tourney.

Day 1: Though there were many blows thrown(and blocked or dodged), I defeated him with 2 clean blows that landed with authority (no more than a 7 on a 1-10 scale), a leg then a head.

Day 2: Also many blows thrown, then I hit him with 5 in-a-row clean, but they felt weird. He was looking at me funny too.

Him: "What was that?"

Me: "They light?"

Him: "Yup, all of them, clean, but light"

Me: "damn"

He went on to beat me. The 2nd day I was off in my body and head. I was rushing the win with poor technique, so I lost. The reason he was confused was that, from his perspective, I had dropped several skill level's in just one day, and I effectively had.

-Ivan

[Tailoress]

IMnsHO, unless the blow is mechanically flawed (flat, pushing the opponent's sword into his own head, driving the shield edge into the leg, etc.), telling an opponent in tourney/melee NOT to take a shot that they felt was good is a disservice. Calling a blow on either side of the spectrum (good / not good) denies the fighter the honor of calling the blows he receives and yielding when he decides he has been bested. Certainly in training you want to provide this sort of input, but tournament is not about training, it is about doing -- and doing it for someone else, even with the best of intentions, serves neither fighters' chivalry.

Respectfully,

Alfred of Carlyle

Sir Alfred,

I have a very specific, perhaps un-PC quibble with this. I competed in the novice portion of an Iron Rose Tournament at Pennsic years ago. I found, to my consternation, that almost every single lady I came up against was taking the first tinky blow I dealt her. After about 3 of these "wins" I stopped allowing it. I explained that no man would accept such a light blow and neither should they. They needed a reality check right then and there or else I would have had to withdraw because it was like shooting fish in a barrel. I was gifted with a courtesy prize at the end -- unexpected and a little embarrassing, but I suppose it was proof others appreciated what I'd done and found it honorable. I lost to a fellow Eastern woman who, like me, had been trained with realistic calibration, not the make-believe calibration those ladies were unwittingly perpetuating.

I think there's a place for such discussion and correction, even in the midst of a tournament.

-Tasha

[InsaneIrish]

I ran into many who decided that killing a dead guy was still a kill. I good naturedly saluted each and everyone and acknowledged their shot...

"Good!"
...

"Good, good and also good!"

It's been my experience that this usually comes from people walking through enemy lines after they have "died". Not saying one way or the other on this, but, in battles where there is a lot of charging, people tend to throw for effect until someone falls over. I have seen way to many people charge through a line, disrupting all the ranks, only to say (after they crash through the back) that they were dead on the first, second, or third shot, but were just going through to res.

I tend to agree with Blackbow, the universal sign of dead is "fall over". In the din of battle it is hard to people to hear one guy yelling dead when they keep walking forward.

[Dietrich von Stroheim]

I am still pretty new to this game and I might be saying something daft here but I am going to say it anyway.

I do not understand the problem. If you hit someone and they feel the blow was not good then they do not call it and you carry on fighting. If they receive a hundred blows which they feel were light then they do not call any of them good and you continue fighting.

If I see someone take a good blow and they do not call it good then, as far as I am concerned, that is conclusive proof that I was wrong about it being good. Nothing more.

Am I missing something?

Stefan, you have been taught well, and this attitude will result in a lot of fun and low stress levels in your SCA career.

Freiman: Hmm. From your other posts, you seem like a laid-back guy who really enjoys SCA fighting. I'm surprised you'd get upset over an opponent asking you to continue smiting him.

Fokke: Yeah man, it happens, and no worries. It helps a bit though if you keep a steady chant of, 'I'm dead I'm dead I'm dead' going as you make your way through.

I'm told it works even better if you do it in a really high-pitched voice!

JB: Good points about it being your choice to walk away rather than fall--one time I aimed a vigorous spear-thrust at a target, when a walking dead intercepted it head-first, and was staggered by it. I stopped to see if he was ok and apologized, and he just said, "Not your fault, that's what I get for walking across the lines when I'm dead!"

[Eirik]

I ran into many who decided that killing a dead guy was still a kill. I good naturedly saluted each and everyone and acknowledged their shot...

"Good!"
...

"Good, good and also good!"

It's been my experience that this usually comes from people walking through enemy lines after they have "died". Not saying one way or the other on this, but, in battles where there is a lot of charging, people tend to throw for effect until someone falls over. I have seen way to many people charge through a line, disrupting all the ranks, only to say (after they crash through the back) that they were dead on the first, second, or third shot, but were just going through to res.

I tend to agree with Blackbow, the universal sign of dead is "fall over". In the din of battle it is hard to people to hear one guy yelling dead when they keep walking forward.

Oh yeah... to be sure, I was struck occasionally walking out of the line, sometimes when I knew good and well they knew I was dead, sometimes I'm sure it was just battle lust.

Once because... no shit there I was in the ravine battle, bodies piled around me so high I litterally couldn't fall. Yes, them Ansteorra boys killed the hell out of me!
I eventually laughingly told them they could keep killing me, but I couldn't fall down. At that point someone behind me cleared me a spot to retreat and out I went....

and yes, I got one more shot to the back of the head as I left LOL!
(Hey I did say they could keep killing me....)


As I said... I acknowledged them all with a smile. I don't care if they knew or didn't... it's all good to me!

The counterside to that are the two gentles that called me merely shaking my speartip in their faces. I saw them beside some trees, and stepped up to attack... as I did, someone said "I think there is a hold". We all paused to look around... no one else had stopped but just our little area... and we were all fine. I went back to the attack but could tell my opponents still weren't sure... so I just waggled my speartip in their faces to get their attention. BOTH of them, at different times, acknowledged that and retreated to the rez point.

See? It all balances out. I took a few extra shots, but then I didn't have to throw quite as many either

I ain't lying when I said I smiled so much my face hurt... I LOVE Gulf Wars and the guys we get to fight!!

[Duke Icefalcon]

I'd be more concerned about the "what do you expect, its X and they are always like that" kind of comments. There are units with that kind of reputation. I wouldn't want to be in one.

We would be mortified if the Company of St. Martin's was thought of that way and would take action to correct it.[/quote]

The Bloodguard is my household. We hold ourselves to a very high level when it comes to sportsmanship and chivalry. Although I cannot say that we have never had a problem child with bad calibration in our household in the 20 plus years of playing the game; I CAN say that we police our ranks regularly and make sure that we do not give anyone the excuse that we win our battles through foul play.

In the case of Oscad, I have never seen him display poor calibration. I will continue to check my own calibration and those of my house. If anyone has an issue, they simply need to bring it to our attention and we will handle it.

What is sad is that this becomes a post. It stains the actual events of the war and of this battle, where we met the fine fighters of Calontir and fought hard to defeat them, without whining of tempers on the field. They showed great attitude and sportsmanship. If there was a question about anything, it was discussed by both sides and we continued to fight with smiles on our faces. Unless I am mistaken, our opponants gave us a great fight and showed the attitudes of warriors. I would be surprised to hear that they would go home and complain in a cowardly manner on a list as opposed to working it out on the field. I doubt that the warriors we faced were anything less than true and valorous folk.

With Respect,

Duke Icefalcon

[freiman the minstrel]

Freiman: Hmm. From your other posts, you seem like a laid-back guy who really enjoys SCA fighting. I'm surprised you'd get upset over an opponent asking you to continue smiting him.

Well, the last time I can recall having this happen, it was the Hadrian's wall battle a few years ago, when some genius had decided that the waterbearers had to be at least fifty yards behind the res point, for a multiple hour battle, in August. As I recall, my exact words were "This is a greatsword. I CAN hit you harder, if you want it." At that moment, that wasn't completely true. I had been swinging for the bleachers for a while at that point.

Which, I think illustrates a reason that we need to leave it on the field when that sort of thing happens. Usually, there is a really good explaination, like three or four thousand people who were hungover when they started fighting, and were completely dehydrated and cranky in the first few minutes.

And, for the record, I have been in units that have slammed into the Bloodguard and Calontir both, and I haven't in particular found any problem with fighting them. Most of the time that I have found that folks that have a problem calling things are the ones that are insecure about their fighting prowess. The guys that really feel like they have something to prove. The Bloodguard and Great Calon Army are neither of these.

There are three reasons that somebody might fail to call a shot (of which I am aware) are three.

First, they don't want to lose. This can be the case in tourneys and in non-res melees. It is reprehensible, but perhaps understandable.

The second is that they just didn't feel it. We have all been in the shower after fighting and said "Oh, crap! I should have called that." It happens.

The third is that people don't want to stop fighting. In private situations, this is a great thing to have happen. It means that we don't have to stop.

f

[Nissan Maxima]

I loved Gulf Wars. That said, calibration was all over the place. Likely as a result of the diverse cultures represented on the filed. To me it looks like this. All tails on curves extend to the infinite.

Some guy did say to me in the field, Hey I hit you three time, you're dead." I didn't feel even one, but I left the field anyway, which was probably wrong of me, because it reinforces wrong thinking, but whatever, no big deal. I got complemented on the force of my shots and recieved some complaints. Most notably the guy who pooped when I stabbed him.

For the record, Bloodguard is one of my favorite flavours. I love fighting those guys.

[DukeAvery]

Fascinating Spock.

I could fill in a good part of the rest of the known world in symmetry. I see more 'mountainous' shapes as aggregates are influenced by nearby curves.

I shouldn't have said 'so what was wrong with that?' way back when. My bad.

Regards

Avery

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

my melee rule is that if I don't realize that you are hitting me, I won't take it.
And it has happened numerous times (including most recently at Estrella) where someone asked me about "all those shots" none of which I even felt.

I do prefer a solid shot so that I know that I am "dead", but because of the above, if I do feel multiple "light" blows and do determine their source ("Hey, is that you hitting me?") I will usually take it (unless I get a "don't worry about it" reply), just in the interest of keeping everyone calm). I will tell people that they can go ahead and please hit me harder.

I was talking to Sir Valorc (sp?) of Corvus (from Caid) and he mentioned that he does a "exercise" with his fighters where he has them hit someone in the back as they are running by ( and then reverse it so they know the feeling). You can really feel you pasted someone who is moving, and they won't feel it much at all.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

Also, Middle Kingdom calibration has the same mode as Pennsic? With a higher SDEV?

That's an... unusual... observation.

[DukeAvery]

...
Some guy did say to me in the field, Hey I hit you three time, you're dead." I didn't feel even one, but I left the field anyway, which was probably wrong of me...

No I think that is right in a field leader, in that if one such is percieved as being thick the field can go and will thick which leads to more medical holds.

[Damien381]

From the left handed horses mouth...

You are alive until you receive a blow that bests you. If you receive a shot that does not best you, you are not dead. If you a deliver a shot that does not best your opponent, you should throw another that does. The only person that decides the quality of the shot received should be the one in the armor being struck. I would charge every fighter on this list to video every fight you have ever been in and find where this does not apply to you.

Did I deliver Oscad a telling blow the first time? No I did not. I will however make it a point to deliver a more telling blow the next time we meet . I did continue to throw blows until my opponent received a telling blow and did not question his judgement of any of them. I did not have a problem with this engagement at the time and still don't. If I had, I would of disengaged and gone and talked to Oscad face to face right then and there. I trust he would do the same for me. This was an honorable engagement in my mind, which is what is most important to me in my hobby.

[Aaron]

I really must be selectively blind. I saw nothing wrong. I did see some great rigs!

[Vitus von Atzinger]

I think one of the things that is driving everyone kind of crazy is the touch-to-face rule. People just IGNORE it because it, well...it sucks.

I feel that Estrella-style face thrusts can be a bit much, but a touch? I just can't get used to it.

[asbrand]

In all my years of fighting, I cannot recall once where I got pissed or upset because someone wouldn't take a shot from me.

I was "raised" to believe that you throw what you think is good...if they call it, great. If they don't, then you need to throw it harder. Keep doing so until either they call it, or you get killed yourself.

If it gets to the point where I'm knocking you on your arse from a shot, and you are still calling it light, I'll just concede the fight to you. Because at that point, I don't think I can throw any harder, and it just isn't worth the frustration to me. And, there's plenty of other folks to go play with.

[DukeAvery]

I really must be selectively blind. I saw nothing wrong. I did see some great rigs!

Me neither. Good shot calling can be hard. At this last crown I fought a knight who butt wrapped me a bit before I slew him. I asked him about the shot and he could offer no real opinion. I had to stop and think about it hard (which I mislike to do), before I said no. Later, I was relieved that I had no bruise there which would have been a sure sign I had called wrong (unarmored locations almost always bruise when struck a goodly shot, on me at least).

Regards

Avery

Be diligent, oh knight, to weed hypocrisy from your spirit.

[DukeAvery]

Ok here is a funny story.

I was at a GWW and I thought I hit some guy who blocked my shot into his jibs, twice. I got annoyed and after the fight decided we were gonna have a talk. Now one of our mutual friends saw me looking around and asked if I was looking for that guy and I said yes. His eyes got big, and I didn't think anything of it, until after I had circled the field 3 times and not found him. Now, having never not been able to find someone I wanted to (even at Pennsic) I thought, "damn bastards hiding on me. " and then, "somebody tipped him off." followed by "this is silly, I'm going back to fighting". And the rest of my day was very fine.

Now get off my porch.

Regards

Avery

[FrauHirsch]

I think one of the things that is driving everyone kind of crazy is the touch-to-face rule. People just IGNORE it because it, well...it sucks.

I feel that Estrella-style face thrusts can be a bit much, but a touch? I just can't get used to it.

I'm used to Estrella style face thrusts myself, but directed touch is what the rules say. It is pretty common for fighters to ignore a light face thrust, as well as spear shots that "glanced off the grill" which are also kills.

The thrust issue is just one of those things to keep in mind. Since it sucks, I do hope those who feel strongly will try to change the rule, though a real spear goes through unarmored flesh with very minimal effort.

This video was nothing... If I were Marshaling, I wouldn't have said a thing to anyone. Sometimes there is some cheatin' going on, but this wasn't it. Usually I look more for lost tempers than anything, and that didn't seem to be the case at all here.

I laughed with Count Jonathan because there have been a few occasions where I and others have thrown people through the air with a face thrust after hitting them to the face with a spear multiple times, ever harder - AND THEY GOT BACK UP AND JUMPED BACK IN BATTLE! But its always shocking when you see someone do it.

-J

[Baron Alcyoneus]

From the left handed horses mouth...

Well, what the hell would you know? You were in the video, not just watching it!

[FrauHirsch]

I CAN say that we police our ranks regularly and make sure that we do not give anyone the excuse that we win our battles through foul play. With Respect,

Duke Icefalcon

Glad to hear it. Its sounds like this was really no big deal and may be in some part due to kingdom cultures.

I know of some groups out in the western kingdoms that do have bad reputations. In my experience there are several types. The first is "we are badass and you have to hit us harder because we practice more and work out" (we've actually heard them say that.) The other type are the ones with a large contingent of fighters that fight once a year or so, pretty much got authorized for war, but never practice much or fight in tournaments. Then they get all hopped up on adrenaline, or just confused out there. The other is a small group with one or two very 'memorable' hard to kill fellows. In general my response to all is to hit harder... the only problem is when tempers fly or someone who can throw nuclear force ramps up to be dangerous due to one of these folks. That didn't happen in the video.

In one tourney recently there was a fighter that would get hit in the head and he'd drop to his knees. He was having other calibration problems too. It was bizarre. The marshals had a talk with the other guys in his houshold and he'd just authorized. The sr. guys in the group said they'd take care of it. We were all good with that. There are often lots of those types out in big wars. Scary but true.

I think this was a big stink over nothing much. It was pretty clear the first set of sword blows were being partially blocked.

No one even started yelling foul language

-J

[William de Faleston]

All I Wang to know is where do I go to get a whoop ass button installed?

[Vitus von Atzinger]

"I laughed with Count Jonathan because there have been a few occasions where I and others have thrown people through the air with a face thrust after hitting them to the face with a spear multiple times, ever harder - AND THEY GOT BACK UP AND JUMPED BACK IN BATTLE! But its always shocking when you see someone do it. "


Uh, that's not cool.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

I loved Gulf Wars. That said, calibration was all over the place. Likely as a result of the diverse cultures represented on the filed. To me it looks like this. All tails on curves extend to the infinite.

Some guy did say to me in the field, Hey I hit you three time, you're dead." I didn't feel even one, but I left the field anyway, which was probably wrong of me, because it reinforces wrong thinking, but whatever, no big deal. I got complemented on the force of my shots and recieved some complaints. Most notably the guy who pooped when I stabbed him.

For the record, Bloodguard is one of my favorite flavours. I love fighting those guys.

I'd love to see a graph that included the whole of the knowne world... sadly, I don't get a chance to travel much (though I'm looking to change that)

[Nissan Maxima]

Hey, I just made that graph up from my general impressions. There are no measurements there. It just looks like science.

As a note, I believe that calibration would not follow a normal curve, probably more of a pearson 5 distribution.

I kind of think in graphs like this.

[Vebrand]

You know what I find funny about this is the two guys in the video had no issue withtheir fight but seems so many others do. Just makes one laugh.

Nissan did you actaully make someone poop? I mean I hear you are a scary guy and all but that takes the cake

Vebrand

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

Oh, I realize that there's no empirical data here. Just want an idea of how everyone think different regions gauge, in general.

I have heard a lot of stuff about Avacal being on the upper end and with the way some of our boys (particularly our well-traveled ones) hit, I'm not surprised we have that rep, but there is, of course, a part of me that wants to know how people who get to fight folks from all over see us.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

You know what I find funny about this is the two guys in the video had no issue withtheir fight but seems so many others do. Just makes one laugh.

Nissan did you actaully make someone poop? I mean I hear you are a scary guy and all but that takes the cake

Vebrand

Actually, I want to hear this story, too. Tell us a story, Uncle Nissan!

Talk about beating the shit out of someone.