Gulf Wars - the complaining begins

[Nissan Maxima]

Well kiddies,
Sir Simon of Ansteorra rushed me in the town battle and I took a big step forward and to the left and stabbed behind his shield with one of Duke Logan's depleted uranium spears and caught him square in the nads.

He told me it made him soil himself and I apologised. He went to change his pants and I swapped out for a lighter Icefalcon red spear.

Shit happens.


I will not rest till I make someone shit themselves before I hit them.

Now go to bed and dream of evil clowns killing your family.

[Thorstenn]

Even Honor based systems have to have a limit!!!


Thor.

"I laughed with Count Jonathan because there have been a few occasions where I and others have thrown people through the air with a face thrust after hitting them to the face with a spear multiple times, ever harder - AND THEY GOT BACK UP AND JUMPED BACK IN BATTLE! But its always shocking when you see someone do it. "


Uh, that's not cool.

[iaenmor]

Nissan, picking on an old defenseless man like that.

Oh am I so going to pick on Granpa when I see him next. Nicely of course, he can still put a whoopin on me.

[Nissan Maxima]

Nissan, picking on an old defenseless man like that.

Oh am I so going to pick on Granpa when I see him next. Nicely of course, he can still put a whoopin on me.

He was trying to kill me. He moves pretty damn quick too. I was lucky to get him before he got me.

Give him my regards.

[FrauHirsch]

If someone keeps hitting harder until they send someone flying, I have no sympathy for the person who caused the ramp up. Technically you have to keep hitting harder until the receiver concedes. Some just don't concede. I've seen times where we quit trying to kill them and just went for the physical knock down.

Seriously I had guys back in the old days who bragged to me about taking LSD and PCP before they went out to war. I was a cute little thing back then, perhaps I was supposed to be impressed. But it explained a lot.

People get blasted in the back and from behind, while on the ground, while clearly dead.

Realistically, we have to be aware that there are elements out on the field with us that aren't playing the same game - or just go nutso out there. The Marshals often don't see them or can't get to them. Its not cool, but it is what it is.

[Caspar]

You know what I find funny about this is the two guys in the video had no issue withtheir fight but seems so many others do. Just makes one laugh.

Nissan did you actaully make someone poop? I mean I hear you are a scary guy and all but that takes the cake

Vebrand

Actually, I want to hear this story, too. Tell us a story, Uncle Nissan!

Talk about beating the shit out of someone.

I must be humor impaired. I don't get why this is funny.

[Jestyr]

I laughed with Count Jonathan because there have been a few occasions where I and others have thrown people through the air with a face thrust after hitting them to the face with a spear multiple times, ever harder - AND THEY GOT BACK UP AND JUMPED BACK IN BATTLE! But its always shocking when you see someone do it.

I had two similar experiences at the Ravine battle this year.

Situation 1

First situation was a small fighter fighting spear got hit pretty hard in the face from someone to my right. Her head rocked back quite a bit. She said something like it hit her bargrill, to which a few people responded with, "Really?" (myself included). A knight from another kingdom I did not know, fighting directly to my left, said, "If you get hit any harder than that, you will get hurt." At that point, you could see her think for a second or two, and then proceeded to walk back to res.

While I don't agree in "talking someone to death", this knight was probably correct that if she was hit much harder she could get hurt. I really don't know where I stand on this issue.

Opinions?

Situation 2

Another was that a shield man did a slow charge where he proceeded to get plowed by many HARD thrusts to the face, and a bunch of HARD hits by an 2 handed axe. I had moved on to another target, figuring the guy to be dead. When I looked back, he was still throwing shots and still getting hit. I cried out something like, "Are you kidding me?" and I thrust him in the face as hard as I could. He took it.

I must say that I am a bit embarrassed that I responded how I did, because while I wasn't angry, I should have not expressed any surprise and just ramped up the power. I am not particularly happy that I had to thrust as hard as I did, as I do think it is dangerous, but I after a lot of internal analysis and introspection, I don't think that there was anything else I could have done that was a better option.

On the plus side, afterward, my buddy with the axe was saying how he was laughing really hard when I called out, "Are you kidding me?" because he was as shocked as I was that the shield man was not calling his shots.

Overall, I was not angry at all about either situation, and I honestly believe that neither person was being an intentional jerk (certainly not the first situation). People get amped up and don't realize things, so I would much rather think that amid the adrenaline of the battle that people just missed it, than were being intentional.

[InsaneIrish]

Situation 1

.....I really don't know where I stand on this issue.

Opinions?

Sometimes others need to hit someone elses manual reset button. As you say, they get ramped up and their lizard brain takes over. Usually it just takes a comment to make them think.

Situation 2

Another was that a shield man did a slow charge where he proceeded to get plowed by many HARD thrusts to the face, and a bunch of HARD hits by an 2 handed axe.....

Again, some people get ramped up and forget that this is not a submission game. Some verbal chiding is neither uncalled for nor bad in these situations.

[Skutai]

In a sport where every participant must declare themselves defeated, shame is a useful tool. Sometimes it is necessary to give an opponent a moment to consider their disgrace.

[Aaron]

Sometimes others need to hit someone elses manual reset button. As you say, they get ramped up and their lizard brain takes over.

Yep. This only happens to me in melees.

I had to tell someone "good" after they hit me many times, because I didn't really feel the shots. I wasn't paying attention to them and they hit me six times or so trying to get me to notice them. And that's in my light suit.

I could see the shots come in and feel them land, but I was so focused on getting my buttspike into this fellow's grill I mentally just wasn't thinking that I was getting hit.

It happens rarely, but if I'm enjoying the bouts and really got the blood flowing, and I don't know you are hitting me, regardless of what I'm wearing, I really don't know you are hitting me. Just verbally let me know that you are there, and I will retire the field so you may fight better opponents. No shame on your part, it's just me.

-Aaron

[Jestyr]

In a sport where every participant must declare themselves defeated, shame is a useful tool. Sometimes it is necessary to give an opponent a moment to consider their disgrace.

I don't want someone to feel disgrace. If I am in armour and don't feel a blow is good, I don't want someone to try and make me feel bad for not taking it.

Furthermore, I don't think that either of these situations were a case of that.

In the first, I really think the girl didn't realize where she got hit and how hard. She was a less experienced fighter (at least, her spear work was a bit suspect and she seemed to lack confidence) and probably didn't see the blow coming and wasn't used to thrusts. (I am guessing here, but it seems logical to me.)

The second situation is less clear, but I'd rather give him the benefit of the doubt that he was just amped up. He needn't suffer any disgrace, just a more experienced fighter he respects might want to point out that adrenaline is making him a bit thicker than is healthy.

In my opinion, the people who really should be made to feel disgrace never will, as they don't care. A person who opts for "winning" over honor, without regard for fairness doesn't experience disgrace as that moral is sadly lacking in them from the start.

[james of doncaster]

I think one of the things that is driving everyone kind of crazy is the touch-to-face rule. People just IGNORE it because it, well...it sucks.

I feel that Estrella-style face thrusts can be a bit much, but a touch? I just can't get used to it.

I don't mind being thrusted enough to rock my head back just a little, but in these shots taken, my world was rocked hard and I was loopy for a few minutes. my chin strap ended up over my nose even. I got apologized to by the "just authorized" spearman. I kept fighting the rest of the day.

[Skutai]

In a sport where every participant must declare themselves defeated, shame is a useful tool. Sometimes it is necessary to give an opponent a moment to consider their disgrace.

I don't want someone to feel disgrace. If I am in armour and don't feel a blow is good, I don't want someone to try and make me feel bad for not taking it.

Furthermore, I don't think that either of these situations were a case of that.

I don't want anyone to feel disgrace either, but disgraceful conduct does occur. Sometimes it is best to allow the perpetrator to recognize their error, rather than try to convince them of it.

And I was speaking generally, rather than specifically regarding the situations described.

[Ewan]

Oh, I realize that there's no empirical data here. Just want an idea of how everyone think different regions gauge, in general.

I have heard a lot of stuff about Avacal being on the upper end and with the way some of our boys (particularly our well-traveled ones) hit, I'm not surprised we have that rep, but there is, of course, a part of me that wants to know how people who get to fight folks from all over see us.

Avacal hits hard, but not as hard as much of the kingdom core. Avacal as a general rule takes lighter than kingdom core. I've travelled a fair bit and while I did hit at the top range in a couple of places, for the most part was well into the middle of the bell curve. Which is about where I am in Avacal.

[FrauHirsch]

I think one of the things that is driving everyone kind of crazy is the touch-to-face rule. People just IGNORE it because it, well...it sucks.

I feel that Estrella-style face thrusts can be a bit much, but a touch? I just can't get used to it.

I don't mind being thrusted enough to rock my head back just a little, but in these shots taken, my world was rocked hard and I was loopy for a few minutes. my chin strap ended up over my nose even. I got apologized to by the "just authorized" spearman. I kept fighting the rest of the day.

What often happens and I am as guilty of it as any, is that as an experienced fighter, I may be hitting normal hard and most people are taking my clean shots, but then you run into someone you have to keep hitting harder and harder and suddenly your adrenaline shoots up a bit and you are hitting very hard and are a bit annoyed (and some guys get downright pissed) until you pound the guy into submission. Unfortunately its the guy you face after that who gets the brunt of the ramp up.

I have literally pounded someone with a poleaxe with over 180 degree swings putting all my weight behind it until my opponent is clearly loopy, but is still trying to get back up and swing at me.

Of course I went and spoke with his unit leader about the guy. It was one of the "once a year warriors".

I ran into the same thing twice at Great Western, where the same guy from the another unit was doing the same thing. In both those cases, myself and another fighter were blasting the guy with great weapons and he would not fall down. In one battle, one of the Lorellai knights was next to me with his ear-spoon also pounding him, and finally just jumped on him to take him to the ground for a physical knockdown.

A Mermedon friend was laughing that by the end he saw me hitting the guy so hard my poleaxe shaft looked like a bow. Normally I don't have a huge problem with people acknowledging shots, at least no more than any other experienced fighter.

Unfortunately in this last case, I'm not familiar enough with the unit I was facing to know 'who' was the problem child. Later I found that these guys have a very bad reputation for being not very good fighters, but still not taking shots the worst combination of a few "we are badass so you have to hit us harder" and the rest are the once or twice a year warriors.

[Kilkenny]

[I am not particularly happy that I had to thrust as hard as I did, as I do think it is dangerous, but I after a lot of internal analysis and introspection, I don't think that there was anything else I could have done that was a better option.

Personally, I try not to ever hit at a level I perceive as "dangerous" (beyond the normal level of hazard involved in beating one another with baseball bats an' all...)

I consider a "better option" to be hitting them someplace not so well armoured with a blow I consider "normal" force. This has been known to make people squeek and ask me not to hit them so hard...

Another "better option" is to disengage from people who are playing such a different game and seek playmates who are on the same page that I am...

[Thorstenn]

Then you do nothing to help solve the problem! You just let it go on.
Trying to remember the old quote, something like this: All it takes for evil to prosper, is for good men to do nothing.

Will you be at Pennsic. I would very much like to meet you.

Thor.

[I am not particularly happy that I had to thrust as hard as I did, as I do think it is dangerous, but I after a lot of internal analysis and introspection, I don't think that there was anything else I could have done that was a better option.

Personally, I try not to ever hit at a level I perceive as "dangerous" (beyond the normal level of hazard involved in beating one another with baseball bats an' all...)

I consider a "better option" to be hitting them someplace not so well armoured with a blow I consider "normal" force. This has been known to make people squeek and ask me not to hit them so hard...

Another "better option" is to disengage from people who are playing such a different game and seek playmates who are on the same page that I am...

[Jestyr]

Personally, I try not to ever hit at a level I perceive as "dangerous" (beyond the normal level of hazard involved in beating one another with baseball bats an' all...)

I agree, which is why I expressed some disappointment with my actions.

In this scenario I don't think I was particularly *very* dangerous, as I had to choke up on my spear to get the angle on him. But in general, I think having to keep upping the power is a recipe for someone to get hurt. And while I enjoy hitting people, I have no desire to hurt anyone.

I consider a "better option" to be hitting them someplace not so well armoured with a blow I consider "normal" force. This has been known to make people squeek and ask me not to hit them so hard...

That was not an option in this situation, as there was nothing but his head open to me.

Your suggestion is a tactic I've used before though, and I agree with it.

Another "better option" is to disengage from people who are playing such a different game and seek playmates who are on the same page that I am...

So does that mean I don't fight in wars because of one guy who has trouble with calibration?

If I was fighting someone one on one, I have no problem yielding the fight and walking off the field. In a war (or other team-based contest like melee), there are other people counting on me. By disengaging from this individual, I feel I would be letting my "team" down, and that is not okay with me.

I am appreciative of your thoughts, though, and obviously I agree with much of it in general. In this scenario I just don't think they applied.

[FrauHirsch]

Jestyr, I don't think there is a one size fits all answer. You do what you can. I think it is important to try to do something especially if you know it is the same person or group time after time or they are doing something dangerous.

When I marshal wars, I see a lot of random acts that don't look good, but they have to rise to the level of a safety issue to be of concern. Occasionally there are some egredious behaviors on the field that do elevate to the level of a 'safety issue'. These are worth pursuing. However as a Marshal, its often difficult to get to the person and if they are not clearly with a unit, they are hard to find. Rarely are they doing it right in front of you on the edge of a battle. As a marshal, I have also had fighters come up and complain of some pretty bad things (like people faking that they are dead and then jumping up and whacking people from behind and such). Clearly not playing the same game.

With personal fighting experiences, if there is a knight who witnesses one of the egredious behaviors, I would rather get that knight to talk to them if I know who it is, especially if it is another white belt. If the person is in a group that knows me, I'll talk to the leader of the unit as one commander to another. But because I'm a short round older female, if I brought it up to an individual who I didn't know, most would take one visual judgement and just blow me off anyway. Mostly I just take a mental note and will start from a much higher power level the next time I meet that group. It is aggravating that the 'unkillables' can totally screw up a battle's strategy.

But usually there is some of the same behaviors on both sides, so unless it is over the top, it all evens out.

[Vitus von Atzinger]

The "MAKE ME QUIT" guys can really screw things up.

[Sigifrith Hauknefr]

I think this is all sound and fury.

None of these people can ruin a war, or even a battle. So what if one person in 100 has to be hit 5 times or 10 times or 20 times? Just have a chat with them after the battle (or if you insist, during).

I also note that having a helmet strapped for "Estrella Level" Face thrusts does take some of the worry out of hitting someone so hard they get hurt. I don't really have much sympathy for someone who is so oblivious that they have to be injured to take a shot.

[Vlasta]

If someone keeps hitting harder until they send someone flying, I have no sympathy for the person who caused the ramp up. Technically you have to keep hitting harder until the receiver concedes. Some just don't concede. I've seen times where we quit trying to kill them and just went for the physical knock down.

I've heard that there is a kingdom that has a rule that they do not have to take "excessive" shots. If they call your first shot excessive, then all the follow-up shots that are harder will also be so. To me, if this is really a rule somewhere, it seems a very dumb rule. But then, its not my kingdom.

[Vlasta]

It happens rarely, but if I'm enjoying the bouts and really got the blood flowing, and I don't know you are hitting me, regardless of what I'm wearing, I really don't know you are hitting me.

-Aaron

I remember taking my shirt off after Estrella this year and looking at all the bruises. My initial reaction was "I hope I counted all of those."

Sometimes, espescially when in a high-energy charge, I don't feel things coming in. I'm not sure if that's because I'm amped up, I'm a moving target and the opponents aren't adjusting their aim, or they're getting in each other's way or a combination of all three.

[Jestyr]

But usually there is some of the same behaviors on both sides, so unless it is over the top, it all evens out.

Oh, I agree. I only brought up the situations as a point of interest, not out of ill will or disgust, etc.

I'm a fairly self confident person, and while I am not immune to bouts of frustration, nothing in a game I play will ever get me really angry.

[FrauHirsch]

No problem. I was just bringing it up because so many folks somehow think their own guys are all the innocents. Its always the 'other' guy.

When I'm Marshalling I look for the tempers going as it can sometimes trigger some type of "hate crime'...

For example, many years ago at a Bouse war (pre-Estrella), there was this 2 hr res battle. Most of our unit never died during that battle, we were really doing great. Then suddenly this big heavy knight comes barreling into us flailing as hard as he can. We all hit him many times, but he totally ignored them. My shield hand was broken at the base of the thumb by his backswing (we didn't have all that much shield hand protection back then). He went on to jump on our commander (while multiple people were pounding on him, picked him up and threw him on the ground yelling something about him being a rhino. Our commander's helm came off (his head hit the ground at an odd angle and we were all very sweaty at that point). They guy continued to try to hit our commander with no helmet on and everyone screaming hold until they tackled him. He spouted something about rhinoing all day. Until that charge, we'd never met him on the field all day. Turns out he mistook us for another unit he'd met earlier in the battle.

So when marshalling I will wade in if people start going ballistic.

[FrauHirsch]

I think this is all sound and fury.

None of these people can ruin a war, or even a battle.

I very much disagree. I know of cases where people ramped up so high that the next guy they hit is out for the rest of the day or even the war, either due to injury or armor destruction. I'm sure the guy with the caved in grill would disagree, or the fighter who was hit so hard their jaw dislocated and ended up with epilepsy and can no longer fight. I ended up with a broken hand because of ramp up and lost temper because of some other folks not taking shots.

If there are enough people doing this, there can be a general escalation. I've been at wars where the battles were literally ruined because of all the rhinoing and lost tempers. Crowns had to stop the wars for awhile and try to calm everyone back down. One famous Bouse war was going to be called altogether until Drafn and Thunder talked the Crowns into allowing them a challenge match and if that went ok, to continue. It did go ok and folks calmed down, but overall it was a very ugly war. Some of the reasons we have the "death from behind" and "dead on the ground" rules in the western regions is because of some of these old ugly wars.

Its one of those things that will always be around, but I think its important to do/say something if you are in a position to deal with it and you see something egredious and to the point of "dangerous". In my experience, with some modicum of self-policing it stays a low level where its only a few guys, but can easily get out of hand if the self policing goes away.

[Oscad]

I'm not sure what you guys are talking about. I am pretty sure that Bloodguard guy in the video is just a cheating thug...

[Oscad]

Okay, maybe I shouldn't just leave it at that...

Being that 'cheating thug', I vaguely remember that exchange. The spear shots were all off of sword/basket hilt.

As for the sword shots.... I don't remember any of them landing well. Now that could mean...
None of them were of sufficient force, or
They were of sufficient force, but due to whatever weirdness the force did not translate through the helm, or
The force translated, but I didn't 'notice' it.
Like I said, I remember them being... not good, but maybe I was wrong.

Unto Calontir; if they were good, and I failed to notice, I apologize.
On the other hand, I spent the entire battle across from you, so you got to kill me Puh-len-ty!


It was a rez battle, and we had a blast fighting across from Calontir. Spirits were high, and animosity seemingly non-existant. There was much talking across the lines, so I would like to think someone could have asked me if they had an issue with anything.

Sometimes people cheat, but more often they just miss something. I have asked people about a shot, and had them say "not good", or "y'know, that was good". It happens. I am sure I have missed blows I should have called; but I try not to, and I hope they are few and far between.


I just hope Constantine does a slow motion version, then I can become as famous as Logan.

[Kilkenny]

If someone keeps hitting harder until they send someone flying, I have no sympathy for the person who caused the ramp up. Technically you have to keep hitting harder until the receiver concedes. Some just don't concede. I've seen times where we quit trying to kill them and just went for the physical knock down.

I've heard that there is a kingdom that has a rule that they do not have to take "excessive" shots. If they call your first shot excessive, then all the follow-up shots that are harder will also be so. To me, if this is really a rule somewhere, it seems a very dumb rule. But then, its not my kingdom.

I don't believe that there is such a rule in any kingdom. I do know that there was a period of time when some people within the boundaries of Aethelmarc attempted something along these lines. One of my squires was briefly influenced by the concept and we spent a bit of time discussing why it was a Spectacularly Bad idea.

[zippy]

Damien's demeanor and actions in dealing with his opponent and this discussion does honor to his kingdom and knight

Oscad's demeanor and actions in dealing with his opponent and this discussion does honor to his kingdom and household

all i see is honorable opponents who have recognized possible flaws in their fighting

have fun
zip
ps damien next time we meet you are going down, or might just go out for a maid-rite

[Damien381]

Okay, maybe I shouldn't just leave it at that...

Being that 'cheating thug', I vaguely remember that exchange. The spear shots were all off of sword/basket hilt.

As for the sword shots.... I don't remember any of them landing well. Now that could mean...
None of them were of sufficient force, or
They were of sufficient force, but due to whatever weirdness the force did not translate through the helm, or
The force translated, but I didn't 'notice' it.
Like I said, I remember them being... not good, but maybe I was wrong.

Agreed man. In fact I think the only answer is for everyone to take next week off so we can re-do gulf wars!!

Unto Calontir; if they were good, and I failed to notice, I apologize.
On the other hand, I spent the entire battle across from you, so you got to kill me Puh-len-ty!

Pretty sure we traded more than a few times!

I just hope Constantine does a slow motion version, then I can become as famous as Logan.

Are you sure we want to be that famous? Is there even room left on that bus?

[Damien381]

Damien's demeanor and actions in dealing with his opponent and this discussion does honor to his kingdom and knight

Oscad's demeanor and actions in dealing with his opponent and this discussion does honor to his kingdom and household

all i see is honorable opponents who have recognized possible flaws in their fighting

have fun
zip
ps damien next time we meet you are going down, or might just go out for a maid-rite

I see that you are indeed well traveled in the midwest! I'll bring some to Estrella next year. Mustard and pickle of course.

[dukelogan]

the problem brother is that it is poorly written and some folks are reading it, well, poorly. directed = straight in, no tipping down the front of the grille touch = makes contact, no feint.

the ruling then goes on to say that the contact can be decided by kingdom convention to be mere contact, or significantly less than a full force shot to the rest of the body. another example of the failure that is allowing our rules to vary from kingdom to kingdom instead of fighting under one simple set.

now, i know that a 20% cut in my pay would be pretty significant indeed. but lets go the route of the uneducated that believe, for some reason, that it must mean 51% (or greater than half)...... thats a far cry from mere contact and, in my opinion, so weak as to pose no threat at all. while i try to deliver more like 70% of what i throw at the rest of the body in the very rare occasion that i thrust im certainly ok with the power level being around that 50% mark to the face. nice, shocking, jab.

but, alas, some folks want to play light saber touch tag with face thrusts and usually defend it with some quip about safety. no matter, the rules dont say that is what we are doing but it does give them the choice to personally except it that way. i wont deliver any like that nor will i accept any like that but i do support their right, under this poor rule, to do so.

unless, and until, that rule is rewritten there will always be a rare minority of folks that want to play touch tag to the face. they feel that they have bested someone since they also believe our melons are as resilient as a water balloon. its sad really. we just have to accept that there will be that rare bird out there.

regards
logan

I think one of the things that is driving everyone kind of crazy is the touch-to-face rule. People just IGNORE it because it, well...it sucks.

I feel that Estrella-style face thrusts can be a bit much, but a touch? I just can't get used to it.

[Syr Anton]

Anton here (the Calontir knight who threw the spear shot in question in the video on question) I saw this video post and thought it was cool, because there's some fun footage of my squire and I spearing next to each other.

The shot in question was off the side of the faceplate - No issue. Under the rules of the War, it shouldn't have been considerred, and rightfully wasn't.

It was a great ravine battle for us! I had a blast fighting across from Bloodguard and Atlantia and whoever else was across the line. It is true that both of those groups ask for a stout shot, and some things that other people may have taken...they don't. Oh well, we dial it up to the calibration level required of the people we are playing with. It's a War, it's what is expected.

Gulf Wars is that odd place where we can fight a long resurrection battle on one day against a group of people who are all about stout calibration...then on the next day we can come up against a group of people on the opposite end of the calibration spectrum. The calibration game at Gulf can be tricky.

I am also the one who talked to Blackbow about walking through the line instead of falling dead when charging. I have always found that when I take the time to communicate clearly, I always find that there is some valid reason for things...this has been true every single time I have engaged in a conversation with an opponent. I have always found honorable men and ladies across the line. Hence the reason that I chased Blackbow down (I literally followed him on his charge and talked to him when he came out the back of our army) As he explained earlier on this thread....it is just a cultural difference of expectations. I'm used to "Fall down when you die!" He explained that they would rather not have bodies in the way during fighting. OK, I get that...all is well.

I think that communication on the field between combatants is perhaps the most critical piece in keeping this game fun for us all.

And as for Damien's wrap shots...well, he hits like a pansy sometimes. Seriously though, I think the "whining", for the most part, was people poking good-natured fun at Damien.

[blackbow]

Anton: pleased to make your acquaintance.

Blackbow