The Armour Archive

hrolf wrote:Yup. This is why most sane doctors, nurses, and paramedics all have malpractice insurance.

getting sued as a medical professional is not a matter of if. It's a matter of when.

Actually as a nurse I was always instructed (nursing school & hospital) to NOT carry my own malpractice insurance. Lawyers go after everyone with insurance and are less concerned if you don't have a policy to go after. I have been a nurse for 15 years and know very few nurses that have been sued. The few that did were tools and deserved it for poor practice.

My friends come to me at an event if they are hurt and avoid the chiurgeon as well.

Uric

jester wrote:Breaking your opponents is a sign of lack of skill. Now as then.

Well - yeah. Like the fellow who blocked my sword with the shield he was not wearing and broke his forearm.

See, it's not really as simple as that. Weird stuff happens on the field, frequently, and sometimes it results in people being hurt. Sometimes it just results in interesting stories. Sometimes both. But no matter how good both players are, people can and do get broken - with no one being "to blame" for it.

And sometimes it's a good thing - like when they discovered bone cancer in the fellow while examining the knee that blew up when I smashed through the line and blasted him off his feet in the process...

I know a guy who had a similar thing happen to him.

He had just started fighting heavy, missed a block and took a shot to the hip.

He screamed, dropped like a stone, and lay on the ground in a crumpled heap with tears streaming out of his eyes.

Turns out he had bone cancer and didn't know it. He claimed heavy fighting saved his life.

He's still around today.

Nissan Maxima wrote:I got hit yesterday with a shot in the forearm thatwould certainly have broken it had I not had a vambrace. My opponent's skill allowed him to strike me there. My responsibility to my self and to him to be safelyuarmoured ensured that all was smiles and laughter. If I did not have a vambrace it would not be his fault that I had a broken arm.

But it would still have sucked.

I can argue the veracity of my statement, but then I wouldn't really address your (and Duke Gavin's) point. Injury is part of the risk of the combat, part of what makes it worthwhile, and not all serious injury can be attributed to lack of skill.

In period accounts we find examples of men being castigated for seriously injuring their opponents. We also find accounts of men being castigated for overmatching themselves or otherwise placing themselves in too great danger. Clearly, as you state, there are mutual responsibilities.

bump

Yes, I know this is one of those annoying things most sca fighters are really tired of hearing - too bad.

So here's a funny story from this weekend. We were doing a strange scenario where one side had to stay in formation, which means they didn't move much so you got beaten in place. In the one where we were attackers (and hence giving out the beating) we had them fully surrounded and the guy on my right (who is a friend) is pounding away, from pretty much their back. So I reached over, grabbed his wrist so he couldn't fire and said "Ease down. The trans-axle's broken and you're only grinding metal."

Regards

Avery

Vladimir wrote: Turns out he had bone cancer and didn't know it. He claimed heavy fighting saved his life.

Similar situation happened to me years ago. I was fighting greatsword with Count Sir Roderick of Mandrake Hill (late of Mandrake Armoury) many years ago. I took a shot to my right thumb that didn't seem hard, but hurt like hell. Got all swollen up that night, went to the Dr. next day - amazing how the word "tumor" ruins your whole day - I had slow growing cancer that had eaten away much of my right thumb metacarpal. So SCA combat may not have saved my life, but it did save my right thumb (the only thing that seperates me from the dog) and possibly saved my life in the long run - bone cancer is nasty stuff.

He later wrote on his greatsword "Has been found to cause cancer in rats" as my nickname at the time was 'Bruce the Rat'

Brucer

A for Pennsic.

Regards

Avery

DukeAvery wrote:No...I believe I can attest from personal experience that Nissan was two middle fingers on each hand...for twice the flipping power.

Sure, it looks kinda Vulcan, but whatever. "Die Young & Go Bankrupt"

Nissan Maxima wrote:The SCA is not trained or prepared to deal with injury information. What risk analysis process will they use to differentiate an incident from a trend? How will they determine probability to address a hazard.

They won't. They will make a new rule to stop a once in a million incident from reccuring and all will be punished.

THIS

Are there any statistics as to WHAT bone fractures have occurred and how often?
Humerus? Radius? Ulna? Ribs? collarbone?
I know they are not frequent and perhaps statistically negligible, but still of interest.

I've busted a few fingers and two ribs, several concussions. I have also broken my knights hand due to a freak shot/block combination. I've seen a couple noses, an arm, another hand, and a ton of fingers go poof in the last three years. I saw nothing reported thank god.

I've been fighting since 91ish. I have never been seriously injured in combat. I know people who have had severe concussions, torn ACLs etc. I think I have been more seriously injured drinking actually.

That being said I am getting older now, I am not as keen on charging lines as I once was.

It does happen. I don't think the VERY vast majority step on the field with the intent to hurt. I won't say any, cause there are jack asses out there.

My thoughts on the Chirugeonate are pretty much the same as most people's here. I am sure there are some good ones, but there are DEFINETELY some bad ones. If I don't know you, I am not reallly willing to take that risk. I have friends that are around at 99% of events that are nurses and EMTs. Guess where I am going for help if and when I need it.

The two broken fingers I suffered about 20 years apart were both at unofficial doings, one a demo, the other a fighting practice.

In the first case one of my fellow-fighters was a 4th yr med student and former Navy Corpsman who looked at it, said it looked like a break, and recommended a visit to the minor-emergency center. He was right.

In the second case one of my fellow-fighters was an ER and OR nurse, retired from the Navy, also a former corpsman, who bandaged the accompanying laceration. Neither of us realized that it was broken until hours later, when unable to stop the (slight but persistent) bleeding, I went to the ER figuring I'd need stitches. The PA there X-rayed it "just to be sure" and it was broken, all right. She did suture it, first shooting it full of a local anesthetic. I had the odd sensation of feeling the liquid leak out through the wound before the numbness hit.

I doubt either of those got into chirurgeon's reports. The one that probably did was a cut on my forehead from a new helm whose quirks I hadn't yet figured out. It looked spectacular (forehead cuts tend to), but was pretty minor in fact.

To my knowledge, I've had my right thumb broken (minor fracture, untreated but eventually diagnosed). I've issued one confirmed and one probable broken forearm, and been held to blame for a broken hand despite a completely fabricated identification (I was identified by the heraldry on the shield I was carrying - I had no shield on the field that day). I may have received one mild concussion. That in 35 years.

And I wish we were better about reporting, because then we would actually have information about whether or not we need to adjust our standards, instead of basing it all on anecdotal experience and the experiences of the individuals who get into policy making positions.

The injuries are very variable. I've had some bad bruises but that's it.

2 of the regulars in my barony are ex Corpsmen/Medics, and there's one who's still on active duty, they're the only ones who are touching me if i get hurt, not some random chirurgeon who may or may not have any medical training, who thinks that he'll get an AoA if he chirurgeons enough events.

Not saying all of em are bad, but I'm not going to take my chances and will go with what I know.

In five years, I have been knocked out at least once, broken one finger, chipped a tooth, and ruptured one nut. I have also been hit in the face without a helmet (the shot was a '1', but it still left a bruise and bent the crap out of my glasses). I have reported none of these.

I have had people tell me I wear excessive amounts of armour, but the way I figure is if I am broken, I can't earn money to keep up with my hobby. I almost always have an improvement in mind for my kit.

One thing I tell new folks a lot - you only have to swing hard enough for me to take it. You are able to swing a LOT harder than that, but don't need to.

As a Chiurgeon, I likely don't report nearly as many injuries as I see. If someone needs a band-aide because their armour bit them - no report. If someone tourqued an ankle or knee and needs some ibuprofen and they have ice at camp - no report.

Basically, if it's serious enough to take them off the field, then I fill out the report. Also I usually identify myself as an EMT first, then tell them I "Also" am a Chiurgeon. (they relax a little more if a "pro" is on hand) Also I am mainly hands-off in my treatments. I ask the patient to point out where it hurts, ask politely if i can touch or feel around. I even ask to take a pulse. And if it's REALLY serious, then an ambulance is in route ASAP.

Like many things in life it comes down to respect for the other person and not doing anything stupid.