Is SCA "Combat" a martial art (however impractical

[liguangming]

I do see the SCA as martial, no doubt about it. The final application of what we do I suppose it what I question. The cowboys/indian sort of play is alive and well in game.

Perhaps it is more of a martial game then art or sport.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

Why do I see this devolving into why a Ninja/samurai can kill a knight?


The idea of eastern martial arts is what people use to define martial arts in their minds. Its just the way it is.

That said, I disagree with their definitions, but I still don't see SCA fighting as a martial art, rather a martial sport. The only reason I make this distinction is that I have never seen anyone teach this with a real world, unarmored self defense component to it. If that happened, I would have to reconsider my definition. Every other martial art I have studied, or even looked into, has offered at some level a "street level" component that taught nastiness and survival. That doesn't exist as far as I know with the SCA tradition.

Western Martial Arts are definitely martial arts in my mind, but many people who come from eastern traditions would disagree.... Oh well.


Cheers,

Have you ever SEEN Okinawa Karate? Lame. The idea is to stand like Forrest Gump and advance like you're sweeping the floor, while punching from the hip and leading with your chin. The martial aspect has been so thoroughly ritualized and the mechanics so castrated that IMO as a former student of the art, it's useless as tits on a boar in a real throw-down UNTIL you get to the upper echelons and even then, there are a thousand other techniques I'd like to have at my disposal before Okinawa.

I guess it depends on how you go about it, but I know that I'm soon getting my security baton certification based on my SCA experience- most of the techniques transfer beautifully. At street level? Gimme a broom-handle and a trashcan lid... (Which I've done).
Mind you, I also fight differently than most people- I tend to close in tight, even with a great weapon; I block/counter the limb where possible, not the weapon...

[liguangming]

It's not so much a west/east mentality I'm trying to discuss.

For instance an extremely modern martial art would be Jeff Cooper's teaching on use of the pistol. Leveled, ranked, and pragmatic in it's education.

We have some serious play going on in the SCA. Do we really look at what we do and think we will use this to protect ourselves in reality? I don't deny we embrace the over all warrior virtues and spirit, however it is difficult for me to understand it as applied, scientific study and application of defense.

[InsaneIrish]

We have some serious play going on in the SCA. Do we really look at what we do and think we will use this to protect ourselves in reality? I don't deny we embrace the over all warrior virtues and spirit, however it is difficult for me to understand it as applied, scientific study and application of defense.

I do. I have no doubt that because of my SCA training that will fair far better in a self defense situation/fight than before my training.

What you see as "play" I see as adaptation. MUCH like Jeet Kune Do (the style developed by Bruce Lee). SCA combat does not focus on fixed positions and attacks, but, like Jeet Kune Do, focusing on NO fixed positions and attacks, allowing the fighter to adapt and change depending on the situation. Creating a more fluid, organic system of attack and defense.

[James B.]

Frankly I don't see why you guys fight about it; it is meaningless either way.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

Frankly I don't see why you guys fight about it; it is meaningless either way.

Because it's what we do around here.

[James B.]

Frankly I don't see why you guys fight about it; it is meaningless either way.

Because it's what we do around here.

Good point; proceed

[InsaneIrish]

Frankly I don't see why you guys fight about it; it is meaningless either way.

Because, it's friday and no one wants to do any work.

[Saritor]

...however silat grew from the field vs SCA growing from our play.

I have discussed this weapon so extensively because commonly youths are led to skill in it, and if something is not properly presented to them, it will be hard to understand, particularly in this art; also some techniques cannot be intelligibly taught without repeating or including others.

Note the first part: 16th century German children (by their standards) are commonly skilled at combat with a leather or wooden sword simulator, by virtue of otherwise making it up as they go along. Kids, in essence, with no formal training. Playing with sword simulators or sticks.

There are only so many ways to efficiently perform any given maneuver, and there should be no surprise at us recreating things that already existed in the past. We might not be doing it intentionally or specifically, but we ARE doing it.

[liguangming]

James I'm sorry I don't see a fight here but a discussions of beliefs and viewpoints. With the spirit and enthusiasm some players put into their fighting I can see why they are of the viewpoint it is a martial arts, and I can not disagree with that.

Irish, more so as a "dig" then constructive comment about JKD. Lee needed a name for his thought process. =)

To me, I can see from a technique standings if we took the sword and shield, great sword, and spear techniques from history and applied the jitsu to do{eastern} or war to sport, such as Greco Roman wrestling to Collegiate, we might fully embrace that martial art. Taking the war field technique and applying it in a safe or sport condition. However our SCA fighting is built in reverse. We took our safe style, and some say it is war fighting.

I do like Nissan's take on it as a martial farce though.

[Vladimir]

I would lump them in with Kendo and Strip Fencing. If those are considered Martial Arts then so is SCA combat. If they are not, then no.

[liguangming]

Saritor you have hit on one of my points.

The youth are trained in the style in a safe manner. That style being based on what is viewed as pragmatic for the time. It took it's field level technique and codified it and educated it in a safe way.

I do see the SCA rapier/fencing t least in the kingdoms I have been a part of as embracing the historical study and attempting to recreate it to some level of safety.

[James B.]

I would lump them in with Kendo and Strip Fencing. If those are considered Martial Arts then so is SCA combat. If they are not, then no.

I am sure most call Kendo a martial art but I have never heard fencing called one.

The whole debate is subjective.

[liguangming]

James,
Kendo is the "do" to kenjutsu similar and is called fencing in the community.

I have little knowledge of strip fencing unfortunately but was the sport birth from field applications? It appears martial in the sense of the word.

[SyrTheo]

I was just at a practice yesterday run by Paul Bellatrix and it sure felt like a martial art to me. I'm lightly sore high up in the shoulders and outer thighs but no big bruises. Lots of minor ones. Horse stance which I am unusual in using extensively around here is becoming easy. This Sir Marc fellow schooled us with his great sword (yes even me). Mixed weapons is not my biggest thrill. I am minded to increase my anaerobic conditioning for running down attackers who have range. I teach "lefty dukes 101" and learned new methods of attacking a great sword s/b and learned basic great sword katas. I wonder what length will throw his grace off his game? A range game or go inside? I think I'll train with two sizes.

Word spreads I expect to be challenged. Out of practice, my power generation is all over the map and I am establishing my credentials after a 17 year hiatus. 5s to 8s. If Paul wishes me to back off, he will tell me.

http://www.bellatrix.org/school/appendi ... rcises.htm . I spent an hour or more doing this one today. Hopefully, I'll dream about it. Let's get this party started.

Discuss.

Regards

Avery

Greetings Good Your Grace,

I have been brought up in a tradition that teaches sword combat in the SCA as a Martial art. Therefore, it is to me, and those I pass on my skills to. Duke Laurelen Darksbane is [and always has been] my Teacher/Sensei, and I have been taught to use a Rattan sword as if it were real. This means they are weighted and balanced much as a real sword is. We do not use the lighter style swords, being used by many today, exactly because of this reason.

I have developed full pell attack katas to teach to my students, have movement drills, footwork drills, stance and guard drills, drills that include all three, etc.... These drills parallel the martial arts class structure I have received when taking Kendo, Iaido, and Jujutsi in the past. Outside of the SCA environment, we have done sword cutting practice using live swords, to ensure that which is taught is correct, and to make sure our students truly understand how our school teaches fighting with a real sword.

Duke Paul and Duke Laurelen are good friends and trade training stories quite often, because they both see the SCA as a Martial art. This is how I see it as well, and pass it on to my students.

There are many places near to us [an hour or more] that do not have teachers like I am fortunate enough to have, and therefore those SCA fighters will not see it as a martial art. It's all about what you want out of the SCA and then finding it.

I teach my school to almost everyone, but they must agree to not tell me why they can not do what I teach. They must all have the discilpline of a true student. If they want to learn, they must open their minds to the lesson and humble themselves as a student, as I do when HG yells at me about various things that I may still be doing "Imperfectly", like allowing my center to be to high, as an example.

Does the outside world see the SCA as a Martial art?, again it depends on where one is and what they are seeing from the SCA. I have had a Kungfu Sifu tell me that the Sparring in his class will not be as full speed / full force as in the SCA and that he respects the SCA [and me] for the ability to do just that.

In closing, I appluad your vigor and enthusiasm, in bringing these issues to a public forum, and it is refreshing to hear you speak, for your words speak of a tradition that I too follow.

Be well,
EikBrandr

[Saritor]

The youth are trained in the style in a safe manner. That style being based on what is viewed as pragmatic for the time. It took it's field level technique and codified it and educated it in a safe way.

Certainly Meyer's ideal, but if he's writing that specifically, it means that the majority of them are picking up sticks or whatnot and whacking away at each other and seeing what works and what doesn't. Within the constraints of whatever rules system. I see the SCA as essentially a parallel of this process.

I do see the SCA rapier/fencing t least in the kingdoms I have been a part of as embracing the historical study and attempting to recreate it to some level of safety.

For your home kingdom, alas, that depends on where you live. You're closer to people who do a lot more for period styles and considerations. Not everyone is like that...we have quite a few people who purposefully ignore period styles, or engage directly in sport fencing.

We're trying something different with C&T to see where it gets us.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

James,
Kendo is the "do" to kenjutsu similar and is called fencing in the community.

I have little knowledge of strip fencing unfortunately but was the sport birth from field applications? It appears martial in the sense of the word.

For me the difference in strip fencing and a "martial" art is that while strip fencing may have originated in combative arts, it is now thoroughly castrated as a combat application... the disincentives to employing actual combative techniques in strip-fencing are enormous... The "weapon" barely resembles such, the method of striking is optimized for mere contact, rather than the actual application of force to do you opponent harm... it's not "martial" in the sense that it is useless in a real fight.

I do not believe the same to be true of rattan combat.

[James B.]

For me the difference in strip fencing and a "martial" art is that while strip fencing may have originated in combative arts, it is now thoroughly castrated as a combat application... the disincentives to employing actual combative techniques in strip-fencing are enormous... The "weapon" barely resembles such, the method of striking is optimized for mere contact, rather than the actual application of force to do you opponent harm... it's not "martial" in the sense that it is useless in a real fight.

I do not believe the same to be true of rattan combat.

I disagree, with a small sword strip fencing could kill no problem, the same is true with clubbing someone SCA style, I would say they are quite equal in that regard.

[DukeAvery]

What - is there any doubt a knight would take out a ninja?

More seriously, I am greatly enjoying this discussion (meaningless as it is) and what I am learning from it. The teacher from the phillipines story really touches my heart. I've only done football, wrestling, collegiate fencing, and SCA combat, so hearing perspectives outside of this is extremely interesting. I'm going to take a second look at the WMA stuff as well.

Thank you for the kind words. The land and the king are one.

Regards

Avery

[Saritor]

I disagree, with a small sword strip fencing could kill no problem, the same is true with clubbing someone SCA style, I would say they are quite equal in that regard.

Foil or saber, perhaps, but epee?

[Payn]

I am on the martial sport bandwagon. I consider most EMA as a martial sport anymore though. Any martial activity that has tournaments that competitors have rules that they have to abide by, becomes a sport.

I noticed this as a kid when I tried to do Tae Kwon Do, it was one of the popular tournament forms at the time, and the classes were geared towards tournament rules, not to actual self defense.

I took a class in the UK for about 6 months that to me, was the closest I found to a martial art. They encouraged my pre-trained instincts as a wrestler, and had me train the higher level students in what I did. The instructor acknowledged that the form he was teaching, would have to conflict with other forms, and wanted his students to be able to know and counter that form. It was like that with any other martial knowledge that came into his class.

[Francisco Lopez de Leon]

For me the difference in strip fencing and a "martial" art is that while strip fencing may have originated in combative arts, it is now thoroughly castrated as a combat application... the disincentives to employing actual combative techniques in strip-fencing are enormous... The "weapon" barely resembles such, the method of striking is optimized for mere contact, rather than the actual application of force to do you opponent harm... it's not "martial" in the sense that it is useless in a real fight.

I do not believe the same to be true of rattan combat.

I disagree, with a small sword strip fencing could kill no problem, the same is true with clubbing someone SCA style, I would say they are quite equal in that regard.

I disagree, largely on teh the premise that using a smallsowrd properly would require a fair bit of retraining to break sporting habits that come from overly light/flexible blades in a controlled "touch" environment- that is, a Fencer is not trained in the use of a sword, they are trained int eh use of a fencing "weapon".

An SCA combatant, by contrast, IS trained in the use of a bludgeon.

[Takeyama]

I would be interested to see those people who don't see SCA combat as a "martial art" to define a martial art. Do not use actual axamples (i.e. xyz karate is a martial art, but abc Karate is not). What elements make something a martial art. What does something require to be a martial art?

Personally I feel that any form of fighting whether its an 8 year old learning Tae Kwon Do or a Marine learning how to bayonet someone is a martial art. The art of fighting, be it competition, survival or exercise qualifies.

[Mord]

SCA fighting is what you make of it.

Mord.

[J.G.Elmslie]

nope.
Have some Pie.



Anyhow, the one true path of Pie is a Melton Mowbray with a really good crisp filling. these freaks saying its pecan or apple or other pudding pies are just delusional in the face of the allmighty Melton. And this is a far more important point of order.

.
.
.

what? you want more about the combat stuff? oh, allright.

"SCA" is not a martial art. it is an extremely wide range of sport combatants practicing a wide range of techniques, from adherents to western european methods like i.33, or lichtenaur tradition, to italianate rapier schools, to japanese Kendo, to random wild flailing without any reference to an established martial art.

Among the SCA's sporting practicioners, from my point of view on the outside, however, there are some, Bellatrix for example, who it seems are working to develop and codify the techniques that they have developed as appropriate for the SCA's sporting remit, and are developing that into a form which is transferrable to other practicioners through teachings.

That is a martial art; specifically a martial art under development for the purposes of SCA sport combat.

SCA combat itself, and its range of participants, however, is not a martial art, any more than "bar-room fights" are a martial art, or "MMA tournament" is a martial art. In both the bar-room fight and the MMA tornament however, there are people who will utilise a developed form for their use. Those developed forms are martial arts.

But this is all less important than Pie.

[liguangming]

The systematic study of scientific and pragmatic techniques used for attack and defense of one self or others, either armed or unarmed.

[Count Johnathan]

I like to refer to SCA rattan combat as a martial sport. In training yes it is a martial art but our practical application of it is in a sporting sense.

From wiki -

Martial arts or fighting arts are systems of codified practices and traditions of training for combat. Martial arts all have a very similar objective: defend oneself or others from physical threat. In addition, some martial arts are linked to beliefs such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Daoism, Confucianism or Shinto while others follow a particular code of honor. Martial arts are considered as both an art and a science. Many arts are also practiced competitively, most commonly as combat sports, but may also take the form of dance.

We have seen over the years many different styles emerge from different geographical locations and a lot of tradition and repeated codified practices used by specific fighters to train multiple students creating different schools of fighting.

In the sporting aspect we have rules to keep us from killing each other when sparring but on the street if some douche wanted my wallet and I have a cane he better have a gun or he is doomed. A good flat snap to an unarmored skull is lightning fast and deadly. One to the shin will shatter bone. If that isn't a serious defensive (and offensive) skill I don't know what is. Average joe on the street would be hard pressed to do that with a stick.

So yes we do practice a serious martial art but use it primarily in a sporting manner.

Martial-Sport.

[J.G.Elmslie]

I would be interested to see those people who don't see SCA combat as a "martial art" to define a martial art. .

as I mentioned in my post just above...

I'd consider a martial art to be a technique which is codified by method, and which is then transferable from a teacher to a pupil.

taking the techniques in Codex Wallerstein to understand how to displace the opponent's blade, snap his forearm and then stab him in the testicles with his own knife is a martial art.
learning the same actions by yourself while fighting in Glasgow's gorbals in the 1990's, however, *is'nt* a martial art - unless you take the techniques you learnt and start teaching them to others, in which case the martial art of "see yous jessie cunts, ye'z gunna die" is born.

its not the fighting that makes the martial art, but the consistent codification of the techniques and the transferrance of those techniques from teacher to pupil which make a martial art.

[liguangming]

Suzerain I think you hit the nail on the head regrading its development.

[Steve S.]

Fencing
Jousting
Wrestling
Strong man compilations
Target shooting
Archery

I would not put target shooting nor archery in the list of "martial arts", as they do not physically pit one opponent at another.

A martial art, to my mind, is a physical contest between two or more opponents whereby one attempts to exert physical control (defined by a rule set) over his opponent.

Steve

[Kilkenny]

It's not so much a west/east mentality I'm trying to discuss.

For instance an extremely modern martial art would be Jeff Cooper's teaching on use of the pistol. Leveled, ranked, and pragmatic in it's education.

We have some serious play going on in the SCA. Do we really look at what we do and think we will use this to protect ourselves in reality? I don't deny we embrace the over all warrior virtues and spirit, however it is difficult for me to understand it as applied, scientific study and application of defense.

You're hitting several points here.

One. Damn straight I think about how I might use my SCA fighting skills in reality. Friend of mine found himself doing exactly that - broke the mugger's arm with a stick. I have conscious mental switches that get fliipped depending upon exactly what rule set I am "fighting" under. One is the master switch that cuts out all of the "rules" except for one - Win, whatever it takes. That's the one for actual life or death scenarios.

Two. "applied, scientific study and application of defense" - I think how well SCA fighting fits this depends very much on where you are and who you train with. In some cases, it unquestionably does apply, while in others, well, yeah, not so much

[Foxman]

Just to throw my hat in the ring (and well it IS friday and who wants to work! LOL)...

Ask 100 people to define what a "martial art" is you will get answers all over the map, maybe as much a 20+ maybe as few as 10-15 definations.

The point is this discussion has been all over the map because we do not share a codified definition of “Martial Artsâ€

[James B.]

I would be interested to see those people who don't see SCA combat as a "martial art" to define a martial art.

Fencing is as much a "martial art" by definition as SCA but does the public at large think of it as one? This is why the debate is pointless you can say it meets the definition for various reasons but who is really going to care in the end. The SCA is less than .1% of people living in this country.


Count Johnathan and I are making the same argument, there are martial arts and there are martial sports that have come from martial arts we fit under the sport aspect.

I would not put target shooting nor archery in the list of "martial arts", as they do not physically pit one opponent at another.

But the definition of art does not require you have an actual opponent only that you train in a system of actual combat/self defense (SCA is not actual combat we train for the sport of SCA tournament) and archery and shooting guns meet the definition however like I said above who calls it a martial art? If the public at large does not accept it then is it really a martial art?

[J.G.Elmslie]

To sum it up (assuming we can agree on using Wikipedia as a common definition for these terms):

The SCA is a Martial Art that is practiced as a Martial/Combat Sport.

Can I have some pie now?

I'd say you were getting that arse-backwards. SCA is a Martial/Combat Sport. Activity in that can be practiced as a martial art.

You dont get people saying "oh, I train SCA" (well, you certainly dont over here, at least... ), you get people saying "oh, I do SCA, and use Bellatrix'/Lichtenaur/i33/duke Bob's methods" in the same way they might say "oh, I do fencing, and use Epee/hungarian olympic sabre methods."

In exactly the same way, I'd say Fencing is not a martial art. its a sport. but Epee, Sabre, and Foil are each martial art techniques, used in fencing...

SCA is the crust of the pie which contains the individual ingredients, be it nice steak chunks or a gravy with ale in it. each individual lump of steak is an individual unified group of practicioners using a similar codified technique - a martial art form - and there are several such lumps, some of which may well be a little chewy. Each of the chunks of steak is floating around in hte thick gravy of participants who simply go onto the field and leather the hell out of each other however they feel like, working out their own method as they go.
Without the pastry of the SCA, they're simply a goulash or a casserolle. Together, they're the SCA pie.

some of the chunks of steak could be taken out of the pie recipe, and insted used in reenactment or WMA training - the carefully shaped, defined cubes that are lichtenaur or fiore or kendo, etc. They're the defined martial arts, but they're not the SCA. but they can be part of the SCA pie, when they're wrapped up in the pastry which makes the SCA a whole.



Am I pushing the pie metaphor too far now?

[Foxman]

I'd say you were getting that arse-backwards. SCA is a Martial/Combat Sport. Activity in that can be practiced as a martial art.

No I'd say I had it right the first time . If you read through the article it defines 'sport combat' as a subset of 'martial arts' and not the other way around.

You dont get people saying "oh, I train SCA" (well, you certainly dont over here, at least... ), you get people saying "oh, I do SCA, and use Bellatrix'/Lichtenaur/i33/duke Bob's methods" in the same way they might say "oh, I do fencing, and use Epee/hungarian olympic sabre methods."

In exactly the same way, I'd say Fencing is not a martial art. its a sport. but Epee, Sabre, and Foil are each martial art techniques, used in fencing...

Actually I think its 'Oh, I train in SCA Combat using Duke X's system'. I think you're getting a bit hung up on the wording LOL

Again, in the articles Fencing is defined as a martial sport, a subset of martial arts and not the other way around. :/

Am I pushing the pie metaphor too far now?

LOL no I love it - I just had roast beef, potaoes carrots and yorkshire pudding drenched in gravy for lunch so I'm totally onboard!

There are a large number of people in the SCA and each person brings something to it. I'm prowd and humble all that the same time to swim in the same gravy as many of these folks