If you don't want to be chivalrous and knightly, don't fight

Lubeck · Post by **Lubeck** » Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:04 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Deacon:
 Bridge battle? Sure was!

Did we meet? What unit were you with?

Deacon<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, Deacon, We met 12 years ago in Kent, and again at Cleftlands meeting. Haven't seen you at the practice there recently, and I missed you at the event there too. You didn't move did you?

cristofre fortescu · Post by **cristofre fortescu** » Mon Jan 28, 2002 3:54 am

Here's hoping that some of you never do WWII reinactments..."but THEY used bullets and grenades..."

Chris Fortescu

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Mon Jan 28, 2002 8:29 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by christofre fortescu:
Here's hoping that some of you never do WWII reinactments..."but THEY used bullets and grenades..."

Chris Fortescu<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Chris,

No, that would be unsafe (to use on each other, at least). I have yet to see solid proof that the things we're suggesting would be unsafe; claiming they are doesn't make them so.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Conrad the Mad · Post by **Conrad the Mad** » Mon Jan 28, 2002 10:30 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by SyrRhys:

So your main concern then, is that you won't be able to win against a stronger opponent if we allow grappling? Should faster fighters have to use heavier weapons, then so I can keep up? My preference would be to make the fighting more realistic and let the better man win.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On this issue I respectfully disagree. If we make the fighting more "realistic" the Sca is going to lose a large portion of the fighting populace. I am 5'9" and 180 lbs. not a big guy by any means. I feel many smaller fighters are not even gonna play if there is no possibility of winning. I cannot even hope to win against an opponent that out weighs me 100 lbs or more. The way things are now, I dont mind taking the field against a 300 lb gorilla, as I stand a chance of holding my own. Throw grappling into the mix and I am not gonna play, unless we define weight classes. Which then adds to more rules and longer delays at the list. I personally dont want to get hurt. This is a game and still should be treated as such.
respectfully,

------------------
Member of House Red Winged Lion
Man-at-arms to Robert' De'Tyre

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Mon Jan 28, 2002 12:29 pm

hey conrad, I think the general idea was that it be limited to tourneys, and then only by mutual agreement. As in, An opponent may refuse to allow grappeling with no loss of honour. Further, the bout should continue, sans grappleing. Kinda like the light fighting rule about long weapons. If you say no, then the opponent has to not use it.

-+G

Deacon · Post by **Deacon** » Mon Jan 28, 2002 1:27 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lubeck:
 Yes, Deacon, We met 12 years ago in Kent, and again at Cleftlands meeting. Haven't seen you at the practice there recently, and I missed you at the event there too. You didn't move did you?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Argh! Ok I know who you are!

Everytime I run in to you I get another name to remember! Archive = Lubeck. Got it.

Yeah I haven't made it to practice in a while...things have been pretty busy lately. Holidays, home repairs and a pet project - I'm gonna armor up Adder (Terri's husband) and turn him loose on you guys.

Anyways I should be back up your way probably in another week or two.

Seeya there!
Deacon

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Tue Jan 29, 2002 3:49 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Conrad the Mad:
 On this issue I respectfully disagree. If we make the fighting more "realistic" the Sca is going to lose a large portion of the fighting populace. I am 5'9" and 180 lbs. not a big guy by any means. I feel many smaller fighters are not even gonna play if there is no possibility of winning. I cannot even hope to win against an opponent that out weighs me 100 lbs or more. The way things are now, I dont mind taking the field against a 300 lb gorilla, as I stand a chance of holding my own. Throw grappling into the mix and I am not gonna play, unless we define weight classes. Which then adds to more rules and longer delays at the list. I personally dont want to get hurt. This is a game and still should be treated as such.
respectfully,

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a game, that's true, but it can be a game with meaning instead of just a beer and rattan club.

I suspect that the more realistic combat might cost us people, but then I'm *not* of the "let's be inclusive" school. If accurte things drive people away, chances are that the people that get driven away will be the people not interested in accurate things, or else the folks that want to make fighting nothing more than an effete game of tag... and that's just dandy with me.

As for size, frankly, I get awfully tired of the little guys who can dance around the lists all day. When I drive them into the corners the marshalls stop the fighting and let them dance some more. Sorry, it didn't work that way in the real world; in a real tournament, driving your opponent out of the lists was a sure win most of the time. Besides, it's a good opportunity to show that skill can overcome size, right?

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

mordreth · Post by **mordreth** » Tue Jan 29, 2002 5:38 pm

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Conrad the Mad:
[B] I am 5'9" and 180 lbs. not a big guy by any means. I feel many smaller fighters are not even gonna play if there is no possibility of winning. I cannot even hope to win against an opponent that out weighs me 100 lbs or more.
*******************************************
Evening Conrad
It's all a matter of study, I'm the same height as you are, about 20-30 pounds heavier, and more likely than not a few years/decades older. I can usually go through a shield wall without any real problem, and can usually stop someone from overrunning me either as an individual, or as part of a group.
In this case it's a matter of the size of the fight in the dog, not the size of the dog in the fight.
*********************************************
Addendum - good evening Sir Rhys, it has been far too many years since we've spoken
***************************************
Regards
Mordreth

Auto · Post by **Auto** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 9:52 am

Hiya

It is important to also count the number of broken hands and dislocated shoulders, and elbows, that are gonna come from people TRYING to grab a swinging sword, or jamming their extended arm against a moving body part. I always thought watching two fencers circling trying to grab each others blades looked corny, now do we want to see this happen in heavy. As to fighters agreeing without loss of honour, See how many times you'll hear in the showers "sir ** wont allow grappeling with me, because he knows I'll decimate him in Crown" , we hear it now.
I think the SCA has a reasonable set of rules for what it does, If you want to start making SCA combat a "hardcore sport" then start by becoming a more hardcore athelete. Do you think Lewis prepares for a fight simply by putting on his shorts and cup, and his training consists of cold sparring once or twice a week. Not to mention plain physical shape.
This was not meant to be a post directed to anyone in particular or at any post, but I have seen what kind of bad feelings and injuries can happen from poorly trained atheletes trying an intense sport, and I dont want to see it in the SCA
(personally I myself think it would be more fun to allow kicks puches and whatnot, but I realize that would only benefit myself, and not make THIS game any more fun as a sport.
Choose the rules of your sport carefully, the only differences between football and boxing and baseball, are some equipment and rule issues.
IMHO
Auto

jester · Post by **jester** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 10:50 am

I have a suggestion for those who want to grapple. Do it. At your next tournament fight a challenge. Arrange the rules with your opponent ahead of time. Approach the Marshal in Charge ahead of time and explain what you want to do. Arrange for an authorized marshal, who is familiar with the rules you will be fighting under, to supervise your bout. I suggest you fight your challenge after the tournament and not during the tournament.

Have your heralds announce your intentions to the populace as you arm yourselves. Take the field in a noble manner. Prepare yourselves and lay on.

This accomplishes many things:
1) You get to fight the way you want.
2) You get to demonstrate how well your proposed changes work.
3) It's great entertainment and people will be talking about it which
4) Gets lots of publicity for your proposed changes.

Changing the rules by fiat is a bad way to do things, even if it *is* the proper way. Custom holds a lot more sway in the SCA.

Have fun.

Jester of Anglesey

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 11:17 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Auto:
Hiya

It is important to also count the number of broken hands and dislocated shoulders, and elbows, that are gonna come from people TRYING to grab a swinging sword, or jamming their extended arm against a moving body part. I always thought watching two fencers circling trying to grab each others blades looked corny, now do we want to see this happen in heavy. As to fighters agreeing without loss of honour, See how many times you'll hear in the showers "sir ** wont allow grappeling with me, because he knows I'll decimate him in Crown" , we hear it now.
I think the SCA has a reasonable set of rules for what it does, If you want to start making SCA combat a "hardcore sport" then start by becoming a more hardcore athelete. Do you think Lewis prepares for a fight simply by putting on his shorts and cup, and his training consists of cold sparring once or twice a week. Not to mention plain physical shape.
This was not meant to be a post directed to anyone in particular or at any post, but I have seen what kind of bad feelings and injuries can happen from poorly trained atheletes trying an intense sport, and I dont want to see it in the SCA
(personally I myself think it would be more fun to allow kicks puches and whatnot, but I realize that would only benefit myself, and not make THIS game any more fun as a sport.
Choose the rules of your sport carefully, the only differences between football and boxing and baseball, are some equipment and rule issues.
IMHO
Auto<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, none of the changes I've suggested require any higher level of physcial fitness than anything we're doing now.

Second, one of the things I specifically said was that you will not be allowed to grab a swinging sword, and it's easy *now* to get an arm jammed against a moving body part. I simply can't understand why people think these things are so different (actually, I suspect I do know... see below).

Third, the current rules *aren't* reasonable for what we say we're trying to do: They don't accurately reflect the realities of medieval tournament combat. We can't do *everything* they did safely, but those things we can do we should do. The *real* reasons the vast majority of people resist these changes are because they either feel that they won't be as successful in fighting, or because they've been brought up with a completely ludicrous idea of what constitutes "chivalrous" fighting.

Fourth, the "option" of using these techniques or not will only apply to the test period; if the tests show them to be as safe as anything else we already do (and they will; there's nothing much different, to be honest: we can already grab a polearm haft, we can already push a shield, so grabbing a blade or pushing a body won't make much of a difference), then the next step is to simply make them as available as any other technique. Sort of like the way face thrusting was introduced in some kingdoms. As a result, your shower scenario won't happen.

Fifth, no one is advocating strikes or kicks: That kind of silliness deserves to be left with the Tuchux, as it has no relevence to armored tournament combat. These new suggestions are desigend to make SCA fighting a more realistic simulation of real armored tournament combat, not to make it into some kind of a D&D fantasy of people doing silly things.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 11:19 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by jester:
I have a suggestion for those who want to grapple. Do it. At your next tournament fight a challenge. Arrange the rules with your opponent ahead of time. Approach the Marshal in Charge ahead of time and explain what you want to do. Arrange for an authorized marshal, who is familiar with the rules you will be fighting under, to supervise your bout. I suggest you fight your challenge after the tournament and not during the tournament.

Have your heralds announce your intentions to the populace as you arm yourselves. Take the field in a noble manner. Prepare yourselves and lay on.

This accomplishes many things:
1) You get to fight the way you want.
2) You get to demonstrate how well your proposed changes work.
3) It's great entertainment and people will be talking about it which
4) Gets lots of publicity for your proposed changes.

Changing the rules by fiat is a bad way to do things, even if it *is* the proper way. Custom holds a lot more sway in the SCA.

Have fun.

Jester of Anglesey<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In point of fact, that's exactly the approach I've taken. In a previous post I wrote that I had formally asked our crown prince for permission to experiment with two new concepts, blade grabbing and pushing your opponent, and that he had granted his permission.

No one said anything about changing things by fiat.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

SyrRhys · Post by **SyrRhys** » Wed Jan 30, 2002 11:21 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by mordreth:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Conrad the Mad:
[B]
Addendum - good evening Sir Rhys, it has been far too many years since we've spoken
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I missed this earlier. Hello to you, too, my friend!

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"