actually I was thinking of the UFC....because of the NHB comment...
and...
I was kidding...
geez...
[This message has been edited by sarnac (edited 01-29-2002).]
Grappeling in SCA combat
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Richard Blackmoore
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SyrRhys
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Richard Blackmoore:
<B>Entrance music is bad?
"We will, we will, ROCK YOU!"
-If it was good enough for Ulrich V. L. it is good enough for me. And it must be period. I saw it in a movie recently!</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, Richard. :-O
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
<B>Entrance music is bad?
"We will, we will, ROCK YOU!"
-If it was good enough for Ulrich V. L. it is good enough for me. And it must be period. I saw it in a movie recently!</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh, Richard. :-O
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
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InsaneIrish
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I think everyone is forgetting about the armour... I was so tired at borderraids last year I just plopped down in the shade with my plate on. It was damn uncomfortable...
Now that being said, and having wrestled in highschool and taken judo, any kind of grappling whether it be modern wrestling or medieval locks and grabs requires a lot of flexability and mobility in armor.
My 15th cent plate rig will not allow me to grapple without hurting myself of my opponent, there is too much constriction of movement. AND if I were to land wrong in my armour, well that could really hurt.
Some one said that grappling is unchivalrous in SCA combat because it is illegal, they are mistaken. It is illegal because it is unsafe. It is unchivalrous because of other SCA conventions toward combat.
Would I be willing to try it? yes, only with a close friend that was like trained as me. But against anyone else, the chances of me hurting or really upsetting them is very great, and could/can cause the force and rage level to escelate exponentionally.
Insane Irish
Now that being said, and having wrestled in highschool and taken judo, any kind of grappling whether it be modern wrestling or medieval locks and grabs requires a lot of flexability and mobility in armor.
My 15th cent plate rig will not allow me to grapple without hurting myself of my opponent, there is too much constriction of movement. AND if I were to land wrong in my armour, well that could really hurt.
Some one said that grappling is unchivalrous in SCA combat because it is illegal, they are mistaken. It is illegal because it is unsafe. It is unchivalrous because of other SCA conventions toward combat.
Would I be willing to try it? yes, only with a close friend that was like trained as me. But against anyone else, the chances of me hurting or really upsetting them is very great, and could/can cause the force and rage level to escelate exponentionally.
Insane Irish
I get the impression that many are interpreting "grappling" as full-fledged wrestling. From what I've gathered from Rhys' postings -- both here and on other forums -- that isn't the case. If I'm reading him correctly, he's only talking about adding very basic functions to our fight; the ability to grab shields, the ability to grab a weapon -anywhere- along its length -- blade, handle, or haft; the ability to grab and hold onto an opponent's limb (I assume head/helmet locks would still be prohibited), and the ability to push your opponent, either hand/arm-to-body or body-to-body. Tripping, joint twists/locks, and throws would still not be allowed (even if the gauntlets -did- make it possible).
Believe it or not, we already do most of these things to one degree or the other. Extending the practice this much further is not as big a leap as some make it out to be. I can't see where it would be either more dangerous, or give a larger opponent a significantly greater advantage. It could make our combat a little more historical; it might even make it more fun.
-cheval-
Believe it or not, we already do most of these things to one degree or the other. Extending the practice this much further is not as big a leap as some make it out to be. I can't see where it would be either more dangerous, or give a larger opponent a significantly greater advantage. It could make our combat a little more historical; it might even make it more fun.
-cheval-
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SyrRhys
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by InsaneIrish:
<B>I think everyone is forgetting about the armour... I was so tired at borderraids last year I just plopped down in the shade with my plate on. It was damn uncomfortable...
Now that being said, and having wrestled in highschool and taken judo, any kind of grappling whether it be modern wrestling or medieval locks and grabs requires a lot of flexability and mobility in armor.
My 15th cent plate rig will not allow me to grapple without hurting myself of my opponent, there is too much constriction of movement. AND if I were to land wrong in my armour, well that could really hurt.
Some one said that grappling is unchivalrous in SCA combat because it is illegal, they are mistaken. It is illegal because it is unsafe. It is unchivalrous because of other SCA conventions toward combat.
Insane Irish</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Once again, I think you need to re-read what I am actually suggesting.
And many people think grappling is unchivalrous not because of any safety issues, but because they've been fed a line of bull from post-medieval material.
They usually bring up safety issues either because they haven't read what I actually wrote or because they think they won't be as successful in fighting if grappling is permitted, an attitude I find craven.
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
[This message has been edited by SyrRhys (edited 01-31-2002).]
<B>I think everyone is forgetting about the armour... I was so tired at borderraids last year I just plopped down in the shade with my plate on. It was damn uncomfortable...
Now that being said, and having wrestled in highschool and taken judo, any kind of grappling whether it be modern wrestling or medieval locks and grabs requires a lot of flexability and mobility in armor.
My 15th cent plate rig will not allow me to grapple without hurting myself of my opponent, there is too much constriction of movement. AND if I were to land wrong in my armour, well that could really hurt.
Some one said that grappling is unchivalrous in SCA combat because it is illegal, they are mistaken. It is illegal because it is unsafe. It is unchivalrous because of other SCA conventions toward combat.
Insane Irish</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Once again, I think you need to re-read what I am actually suggesting.
And many people think grappling is unchivalrous not because of any safety issues, but because they've been fed a line of bull from post-medieval material.
They usually bring up safety issues either because they haven't read what I actually wrote or because they think they won't be as successful in fighting if grappling is permitted, an attitude I find craven.
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
[This message has been edited by SyrRhys (edited 01-31-2002).]
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Diglach Mac Cein
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First, I believe we need to remember that the warrior of the Middle Ages would be willing to accept a level of risk and injury greater than your average SCA person. For some of those people, combat was thier occupation - not for us. A triwsted ankle, torn up knee, or a concussion was par for the course.
We have to go to our mundane jobs on Monday morning.
Second, IN THE SCA, deliberately breaking the rules is unchivalrous. Using an illegal tactic or weapon is against the rules. At this time, grappling is against the rules, so it is unchivalrous IN THE SCA.
If the rules change to allow it, then I have no problem with it - but I wouldn't hold your breath.
Diolun
We have to go to our mundane jobs on Monday morning.
Second, IN THE SCA, deliberately breaking the rules is unchivalrous. Using an illegal tactic or weapon is against the rules. At this time, grappling is against the rules, so it is unchivalrous IN THE SCA.
If the rules change to allow it, then I have no problem with it - but I wouldn't hold your breath.
Diolun
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SyrRhys
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Irish:
<B>Second, IN THE SCA, deliberately breaking the rules is unchivalrous. Using an illegal tactic or weapon is against the rules. At this time, grappling is against the rules, so it is unchivalrous IN THE SCA.
If the rules change to allow it, then I have no problem with it - but I wouldn't hold your breath.
Diolun</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't need to hold my breath. As I said in a previous post, the Crown Prince of the East has given permission for me to experiment with two kinds of grappling (if my opponent agrees, of course): pushing your opponent's body with your hand, and grabbing the blade of his sword (if it isn't moving, i.e., in the bind).
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
<B>Second, IN THE SCA, deliberately breaking the rules is unchivalrous. Using an illegal tactic or weapon is against the rules. At this time, grappling is against the rules, so it is unchivalrous IN THE SCA.
If the rules change to allow it, then I have no problem with it - but I wouldn't hold your breath.
Diolun</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't need to hold my breath. As I said in a previous post, the Crown Prince of the East has given permission for me to experiment with two kinds of grappling (if my opponent agrees, of course): pushing your opponent's body with your hand, and grabbing the blade of his sword (if it isn't moving, i.e., in the bind).
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
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InsaneIrish
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Rhys....
now YOU miss read me....
I understand what you are asking....you are talking about medieval type "grappling" not modern wrestling... I Understand that. My position still won't change.
And NO I do not think I can't win if grappling is alowed, on the contrary... I would have a better chance of winning. My size and background would give me an advantage over many opponents.
And in my above post, I said that "grappling" was illegal because of safety reasons. And that people thought it unchivalrous not because it was illegal.
The simple fact is, that in any way shape or form, grappling in SCA combat is a bad idea. I have been part of and seen to many "Friendly" combats, both in and out of the SCA that had escellated to a dangerous level extremely fast, due to one of the combatants "misreading/understanding" the other combatants push/grab/throw/lock/twist.etc.
IF the SCA was a small close knit group, Like POD's group. I could see grappling in any form working.
BUT the SCA is not a small close knit group. And while one person will take the "Grappling" option in the good intention it would be offered in. Still another would take it as a chance to "bully" or squeeze an advantage over another opponent. AND that is where the trouble is. When the opertunist takes the "grappling" rule to far, the other combatant can and will in some cases take it personally and thus insues a "you got me now I am going to get you harder" mentality.
The SCA has this problem on a minor scale from time to time. AND I just feel that if given a "grappling" rule to exploit Those bad seeds will cause more harm than good. No matter how many restrictions you put on it.
now YOU miss read me....
I understand what you are asking....you are talking about medieval type "grappling" not modern wrestling... I Understand that. My position still won't change.
And NO I do not think I can't win if grappling is alowed, on the contrary... I would have a better chance of winning. My size and background would give me an advantage over many opponents.
And in my above post, I said that "grappling" was illegal because of safety reasons. And that people thought it unchivalrous not because it was illegal.
The simple fact is, that in any way shape or form, grappling in SCA combat is a bad idea. I have been part of and seen to many "Friendly" combats, both in and out of the SCA that had escellated to a dangerous level extremely fast, due to one of the combatants "misreading/understanding" the other combatants push/grab/throw/lock/twist.etc.
IF the SCA was a small close knit group, Like POD's group. I could see grappling in any form working.
BUT the SCA is not a small close knit group. And while one person will take the "Grappling" option in the good intention it would be offered in. Still another would take it as a chance to "bully" or squeeze an advantage over another opponent. AND that is where the trouble is. When the opertunist takes the "grappling" rule to far, the other combatant can and will in some cases take it personally and thus insues a "you got me now I am going to get you harder" mentality.
The SCA has this problem on a minor scale from time to time. AND I just feel that if given a "grappling" rule to exploit Those bad seeds will cause more harm than good. No matter how many restrictions you put on it.
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Richard Blackmoore
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I have mixed feelings about grappling. If we are talking about full blown grappling, I am against it for the SCA.
If we are talking about limited grappling such as Rhys has suggested, the idea has merit. I certainly am intrigued by the possibilities some of it offers, particularly half swording. I would probably enjoy much of it, it would certainly favor the more athletic, strong and conditioned among us and reduce the wuss factor. On the other hand, while I think it would be safe for those of us who take reasonable car of ourselves and wear decent, flexible armour, I think that among the masses, injury rates may skyrocket.
I am not however a proponent of excessive safety. What we do is already inherently unsafe to a degree. At the same time, I would have to agree that with people my size, Rhys' size and larger (Glen Parker comes to mind), I can see severe injuries from two sources; big or powerful people pushing people so that they fall out of control, or people being pushed over fighters already on the ground. I can see a tremendous number of injuries occuring from this. Now if you limited it to tournament singles combat rather than melee, I'd be less concerned.
I do think that if you allow grappling, a lot of the smaller, frailer, older and female fighters with stop fighting. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but you do have to think hard as to what level of physical risk the membership at large wants. While I would have a ball trying to push Rhys out of a list (I might need help doing so...) it might not be fun for everyone else.
Anyone saying it isn't safe at all or unchivalrous, should be actively fighting against combat archery. The One True Evil To Stamp Out (TOTETSO for short, TM.).
If we are talking about limited grappling such as Rhys has suggested, the idea has merit. I certainly am intrigued by the possibilities some of it offers, particularly half swording. I would probably enjoy much of it, it would certainly favor the more athletic, strong and conditioned among us and reduce the wuss factor. On the other hand, while I think it would be safe for those of us who take reasonable car of ourselves and wear decent, flexible armour, I think that among the masses, injury rates may skyrocket.
I am not however a proponent of excessive safety. What we do is already inherently unsafe to a degree. At the same time, I would have to agree that with people my size, Rhys' size and larger (Glen Parker comes to mind), I can see severe injuries from two sources; big or powerful people pushing people so that they fall out of control, or people being pushed over fighters already on the ground. I can see a tremendous number of injuries occuring from this. Now if you limited it to tournament singles combat rather than melee, I'd be less concerned.
I do think that if you allow grappling, a lot of the smaller, frailer, older and female fighters with stop fighting. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but you do have to think hard as to what level of physical risk the membership at large wants. While I would have a ball trying to push Rhys out of a list (I might need help doing so...) it might not be fun for everyone else.
Anyone saying it isn't safe at all or unchivalrous, should be actively fighting against combat archery. The One True Evil To Stamp Out (TOTETSO for short, TM.).
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Murdock
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i said
"But allowing some expanded grabbing of weapons, maybe grabbing baskets or arms, we could probably do that."
Syr Rhys said
"What I want is to be able to fight as much like a medieval knight in tournament as humanly and safely possible. I want to know what it was like to be a knight; I want to know how *they* did things. I want to do *living history*, not to belong to a group that pays it lip service while really just being an outlet for frustrated D&D types.
Yesterday I met with Crown Prince Darius of the East. He gave me permission to begin experimenting with *limited* grappling techniques. Specifically, he allowed pushing with your hand against your opponent's body and grabbing your opponent's sword blade in order to immobilize it so you can strike him."
I totally agree. Only thing is when i say that people look at me like i suggesting we fight flourentie UZIs.
Limited grappling is a good way to put it imo. We do it now to a degree, sheild hooking, grabbing pole arms that would be only a minor expansion.
As an aside to those that think you cannot grapple at all in armour or that it spells instand death. I have grappled another local St Olaf member in full harness on sveral accasions. He's approx 6'4 230, i'm only 5'8" 190. Neither of us have been injured. Now we are under controll and not trying to actually cause injury but it can be done.
I teach Brazillian Jui Jitsu he takes Shotokahn. You can throw a man when he doesn't want to be thrown, even in armour it just takes traning. Would i try to hip throw someone thats 300 lbs? No you fight different people different ways. Now this is all back yard goofing off, but safe armoured grappling is not impossible. Would that level of grappling work in the standard SCA fiedl? No.
Would what Rhys is suggesting work? imo Yes.
Sorry so long
"But allowing some expanded grabbing of weapons, maybe grabbing baskets or arms, we could probably do that."
Syr Rhys said
"What I want is to be able to fight as much like a medieval knight in tournament as humanly and safely possible. I want to know what it was like to be a knight; I want to know how *they* did things. I want to do *living history*, not to belong to a group that pays it lip service while really just being an outlet for frustrated D&D types.
Yesterday I met with Crown Prince Darius of the East. He gave me permission to begin experimenting with *limited* grappling techniques. Specifically, he allowed pushing with your hand against your opponent's body and grabbing your opponent's sword blade in order to immobilize it so you can strike him."
I totally agree. Only thing is when i say that people look at me like i suggesting we fight flourentie UZIs.
Limited grappling is a good way to put it imo. We do it now to a degree, sheild hooking, grabbing pole arms that would be only a minor expansion.
As an aside to those that think you cannot grapple at all in armour or that it spells instand death. I have grappled another local St Olaf member in full harness on sveral accasions. He's approx 6'4 230, i'm only 5'8" 190. Neither of us have been injured. Now we are under controll and not trying to actually cause injury but it can be done.
I teach Brazillian Jui Jitsu he takes Shotokahn. You can throw a man when he doesn't want to be thrown, even in armour it just takes traning. Would i try to hip throw someone thats 300 lbs? No you fight different people different ways. Now this is all back yard goofing off, but safe armoured grappling is not impossible. Would that level of grappling work in the standard SCA fiedl? No.
Would what Rhys is suggesting work? imo Yes.
Sorry so long
SORRY ! I had to join in here...
Markland allows limited grappeling, almost EXACTLY within the limits that Count Rhys proposes for the SCA. Now I KNOW many of you don't want to hear about Markland but....tuff! We have been fighting this way for thirty years, and it works...BUT I don't think it will work in the SCA!
It's the OTHER differences between Markland and SCA combat that allow grappeling to work for us.
1-No metal hand gaurds-and you can't punch with gauntlets on, only hockey gloves. (...and punches don't kill)
2-Shields must have a padded edge (1' pipe insulation) to be allowed to shield bash.
3-No joint locks, submission holds or removing an opponents helm. Tripping is carfully watched by the reeves to insure safe exacution.
4-Hands and arms are legal targets(which means if you reach for me I'll take you hand off!)
5-You may only FRONT KICK, and ONLY an opponents shield, or polearm. (no roundhouse kicks, axe or flying kicks ect.)
6-Reeves may stop you at any time if they feel you are unsafe-without Question or complaint!
As for those of you who state that brawling on the list field is not authentic...YOU are more fantasy influenced than the Knights Tale movie! You think a train proffesional warrior ISN"T going to grab your arm if he gets the chance?! P-friggin-lease!
Those of you martial arts students who are concerned...don't be. While a martial arts background helps a little, the allowed tactics (markland allowed) are so limited that a well trained fighter has just as much chance to counter them...I speak from experience on both counts- not conjecture.
Those of you who think that brawling leads to Sumo matches...Yeah, sometimes it does. The thing is though that none of the Brawling moves cause a kill-we don't have "dead on the ground". We have "dead from behind" if you can sneak up on an opponent though. In the end your skill with your weapon is what gives you your kill. I weight 330lbs and while I have bulled over opponents before, I have also been worn down by smaller, faster ones too. If I were to fight Sir Rhys in Markland I wouldn't BOTHER trying to shove him-Sumo moves would just get me killed! I would use my weapons skills, shield skills and minor oppertunities to deflect his arm or shove his shield (if he is even using one these days) to try and win the day.
If you think this is not EXACTLY how a real list field would have looked...think about it!
In any event, for any of you who would like to TRY this kind of combat, contact me and I'll give you the schedule of Markland events-maybe you can get it out of your system there.
Blackcross
Markland allows limited grappeling, almost EXACTLY within the limits that Count Rhys proposes for the SCA. Now I KNOW many of you don't want to hear about Markland but....tuff! We have been fighting this way for thirty years, and it works...BUT I don't think it will work in the SCA!
It's the OTHER differences between Markland and SCA combat that allow grappeling to work for us.
1-No metal hand gaurds-and you can't punch with gauntlets on, only hockey gloves. (...and punches don't kill)
2-Shields must have a padded edge (1' pipe insulation) to be allowed to shield bash.
3-No joint locks, submission holds or removing an opponents helm. Tripping is carfully watched by the reeves to insure safe exacution.
4-Hands and arms are legal targets(which means if you reach for me I'll take you hand off!)
5-You may only FRONT KICK, and ONLY an opponents shield, or polearm. (no roundhouse kicks, axe or flying kicks ect.)
6-Reeves may stop you at any time if they feel you are unsafe-without Question or complaint!
As for those of you who state that brawling on the list field is not authentic...YOU are more fantasy influenced than the Knights Tale movie! You think a train proffesional warrior ISN"T going to grab your arm if he gets the chance?! P-friggin-lease!
Those of you martial arts students who are concerned...don't be. While a martial arts background helps a little, the allowed tactics (markland allowed) are so limited that a well trained fighter has just as much chance to counter them...I speak from experience on both counts- not conjecture.
Those of you who think that brawling leads to Sumo matches...Yeah, sometimes it does. The thing is though that none of the Brawling moves cause a kill-we don't have "dead on the ground". We have "dead from behind" if you can sneak up on an opponent though. In the end your skill with your weapon is what gives you your kill. I weight 330lbs and while I have bulled over opponents before, I have also been worn down by smaller, faster ones too. If I were to fight Sir Rhys in Markland I wouldn't BOTHER trying to shove him-Sumo moves would just get me killed! I would use my weapons skills, shield skills and minor oppertunities to deflect his arm or shove his shield (if he is even using one these days) to try and win the day.
If you think this is not EXACTLY how a real list field would have looked...think about it!
In any event, for any of you who would like to TRY this kind of combat, contact me and I'll give you the schedule of Markland events-maybe you can get it out of your system there.
Blackcross
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SyrRhys
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Richard Blackmoore:
<B>I do think that if you allow grappling, a lot of the smaller, frailer, older and female fighters with stop fighting. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but you do have to think hard as to what level of physical risk the membership at large wants. While I would have a ball trying to push Rhys out of a list (I might need help doing so...) it might not be fun for everyone else.
Anyone saying it isn't safe at all or unchivalrous, should be actively fighting against combat archery. The One True Evil To Stamp Out (TOTETSO for short, TM.).</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As for the first paragraph above, you know my view: Learn to deal with it or try something else.
As for combat archery: Absolutely!!! I am completely with you on this. All SCA fighting, single or melee, is *tournament* combat, even our biggest wars. Archery has no place on the tournament field and should be banned completely.
Of course, if people want to change the melee rules to make them more like war fighting I'd be happy to fight that way *and* would support combat archery in those battles, but I don't think many people would be willing to fight that way (witness the complaints about the safety of simple grappling techniques!). Besides, I'd just wear my plate and ignore the arrow shots in that case anway!
You should start a different thread on this one Richard. I, for one, usually decline to fight in battles where combat archery is present. I see no reason to go out on the field for someone to plink at me with a toy bow. Now *that* is unchivalrous!
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
<B>I do think that if you allow grappling, a lot of the smaller, frailer, older and female fighters with stop fighting. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but you do have to think hard as to what level of physical risk the membership at large wants. While I would have a ball trying to push Rhys out of a list (I might need help doing so...) it might not be fun for everyone else.
Anyone saying it isn't safe at all or unchivalrous, should be actively fighting against combat archery. The One True Evil To Stamp Out (TOTETSO for short, TM.).</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As for the first paragraph above, you know my view: Learn to deal with it or try something else.
As for combat archery: Absolutely!!! I am completely with you on this. All SCA fighting, single or melee, is *tournament* combat, even our biggest wars. Archery has no place on the tournament field and should be banned completely.
Of course, if people want to change the melee rules to make them more like war fighting I'd be happy to fight that way *and* would support combat archery in those battles, but I don't think many people would be willing to fight that way (witness the complaints about the safety of simple grappling techniques!). Besides, I'd just wear my plate and ignore the arrow shots in that case anway!
You should start a different thread on this one Richard. I, for one, usually decline to fight in battles where combat archery is present. I see no reason to go out on the field for someone to plink at me with a toy bow. Now *that* is unchivalrous!
------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
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muttman
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Sir Rhys, I have tried three times now to write a response to some of the things you said, but not being to eloquent withthe typed word, I didn`t like the tone of them when I read them back.
Are you going to be at Birka tomorrow? I would be interested in discussing this in person, and being shown first hand some of the techniques you are talking about, and some of my concerns. I will withold my thoughts and opinions until then.
I do plan on being at Birka tommorrow. I do however have a sick child, so there is a slight chance I won`t make it, but it is slight.
John
Are you going to be at Birka tomorrow? I would be interested in discussing this in person, and being shown first hand some of the techniques you are talking about, and some of my concerns. I will withold my thoughts and opinions until then.
I do plan on being at Birka tommorrow. I do however have a sick child, so there is a slight chance I won`t make it, but it is slight.
John
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SyrRhys
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by muttman:
<B>Sir Rhys, I have tried three times now to write a response to some of the things you said, but not being to eloquent withthe typed word, I didn`t like the tone of them when I read them back.
Are you going to be at Birka tomorrow? I would be interested in discussing this in person, and being shown first hand some of the techniques you are talking about, and some of my concerns. I will withold my thoughts and opinions until then.
I do plan on being at Birka tommorrow. I do however have a sick child, so there is a slight chance I won`t make it, but it is slight.
John</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry, but I won't be there.
------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
<B>Sir Rhys, I have tried three times now to write a response to some of the things you said, but not being to eloquent withthe typed word, I didn`t like the tone of them when I read them back.
Are you going to be at Birka tomorrow? I would be interested in discussing this in person, and being shown first hand some of the techniques you are talking about, and some of my concerns. I will withold my thoughts and opinions until then.
I do plan on being at Birka tommorrow. I do however have a sick child, so there is a slight chance I won`t make it, but it is slight.
John</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry, but I won't be there.
------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
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sarnac
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SyrRhys:
<B> As for the first paragraph above, you know my view: Learn to deal with it or try something else.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe this is why I have a problem....
I fail to comprehend why the rest of the Society, who are playing by the rules as they are written now, have to conform to your idea of how this game is to be played, or "try something else".....
In my mind it is you who need to play the way everyone else is in the Society or "try somethin else"...like some of what you do with the tourney companies as you have stated earlier, which is admirable....however asking the thousands of fighters, who are happy with things as is, within the Society to change the rules to suit you is unrealistic at best.
HRH Darius is a good man, and I admire him for letting you experiment....but do you honestly think that this kind could become the norm?
I am looking for your honest opinon here....I am interested how you see this being implemented if you had your way...
<B> As for the first paragraph above, you know my view: Learn to deal with it or try something else.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe this is why I have a problem....
I fail to comprehend why the rest of the Society, who are playing by the rules as they are written now, have to conform to your idea of how this game is to be played, or "try something else".....
In my mind it is you who need to play the way everyone else is in the Society or "try somethin else"...like some of what you do with the tourney companies as you have stated earlier, which is admirable....however asking the thousands of fighters, who are happy with things as is, within the Society to change the rules to suit you is unrealistic at best.
HRH Darius is a good man, and I admire him for letting you experiment....but do you honestly think that this kind could become the norm?
I am looking for your honest opinon here....I am interested how you see this being implemented if you had your way...
Sarnac,
Are you familiar with the evolution of fighting in your kingdom? Face thrusts, unpadded polearms, combat archery, finger gauntlets, and shield-size limits weren't always there (and why some are today is beyond me *wry grin*). All of these changes first suffered the withering criticism of "unsafe" and "unchivalrous", while at the same time were rebuffed with equally discouraging comments like, "what we've got works for us", and "...not done here". The fact that something has, or hasn't been done for years does -NOT- mean its not broken, only that we manage to limp along without things getting too out of hand. For example, does your kingdom include off-hand evaluation in its authorization? Ever wonder if that was always the case? My guess is no, because I think I had a little something to do with getting it introduced in the Mid, and it very likely became a part of your heritage. Now, would you think that it is pretty dangerous -not- to train to a certain degree of competence with the first weapons form you are likely to use after you get hit in your sword arm in your first or second bout? Funny, it wasn't always that way.
My rather round-about point here is that the concerns you raise about whether this is something the entire SCA can actually absorb and adopt is moot. If it is, it will -- and we'll all have to figure out how to make it part of our ever-changing game. Shooting it down now purely on the basis that we don't do it yet is not just conservative, it's hidebound and counter-productive. If Polidor had listened when everyone laughed at him for making barrelhelms from scratch when there were perfectly good freon cans for the taking, we'ld probably still be fighting in mop pails today!
Try to loosen up and let the fighting community 'breathe' a little. Rhys does not propose that it's his way or the highway, despite the high rhetoric he uses. At best, it's a ploy to get your attention (it did, didn't it?); he is probably more aware than many just how hard it is to effect even the slightest amount of course-correction in the future direction of the SCA juggernaut. In fact, it may only be men of his substantial 'presence' that can really pull it off *eg*.... -c-
(Ha, Murdoch!! Beat you to the "post" on this one *grin*)
[This message has been edited by cheval (edited 02-01-2002).]
Are you familiar with the evolution of fighting in your kingdom? Face thrusts, unpadded polearms, combat archery, finger gauntlets, and shield-size limits weren't always there (and why some are today is beyond me *wry grin*). All of these changes first suffered the withering criticism of "unsafe" and "unchivalrous", while at the same time were rebuffed with equally discouraging comments like, "what we've got works for us", and "...not done here". The fact that something has, or hasn't been done for years does -NOT- mean its not broken, only that we manage to limp along without things getting too out of hand. For example, does your kingdom include off-hand evaluation in its authorization? Ever wonder if that was always the case? My guess is no, because I think I had a little something to do with getting it introduced in the Mid, and it very likely became a part of your heritage. Now, would you think that it is pretty dangerous -not- to train to a certain degree of competence with the first weapons form you are likely to use after you get hit in your sword arm in your first or second bout? Funny, it wasn't always that way.
My rather round-about point here is that the concerns you raise about whether this is something the entire SCA can actually absorb and adopt is moot. If it is, it will -- and we'll all have to figure out how to make it part of our ever-changing game. Shooting it down now purely on the basis that we don't do it yet is not just conservative, it's hidebound and counter-productive. If Polidor had listened when everyone laughed at him for making barrelhelms from scratch when there were perfectly good freon cans for the taking, we'ld probably still be fighting in mop pails today!
Try to loosen up and let the fighting community 'breathe' a little. Rhys does not propose that it's his way or the highway, despite the high rhetoric he uses. At best, it's a ploy to get your attention (it did, didn't it?); he is probably more aware than many just how hard it is to effect even the slightest amount of course-correction in the future direction of the SCA juggernaut. In fact, it may only be men of his substantial 'presence' that can really pull it off *eg*.... -c-
(Ha, Murdoch!! Beat you to the "post" on this one *grin*)
[This message has been edited by cheval (edited 02-01-2002).]
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Murdock
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The same argument could be applied to any rules revision. The adding of hand protection requierments not so long ago, to the massive over haul of combat archery.
That argument basically comes down to "we alway done it this way". We should try to add in new things, if they can be done safely, espically if they are period. The point should be to constatly strive to try to become more representative of medieval armoured combat, not to be complacient in what we have always done.
One day i hope we can figure out a safe way to represent everything in medieval combat, cavalry, grappling, and armour as worn, ect. Will that happen? i don't know, but it would be fun.
To me, we should have to goal of being as real as possible while being reasonably safe, not trying to play the game the same way for ever. Now if something is innately to dangerous to try, then that is a reason to not do it. Simply because some people are happy with the way things are, that is no reason to not attempt to improve. Most people would probably like combat just as much with the minor level of grappling Rhys is suggesting. If they don't want to do it then they don't have to grab weapons, if it can be done safely then people should have the option.
That argument basically comes down to "we alway done it this way". We should try to add in new things, if they can be done safely, espically if they are period. The point should be to constatly strive to try to become more representative of medieval armoured combat, not to be complacient in what we have always done.
One day i hope we can figure out a safe way to represent everything in medieval combat, cavalry, grappling, and armour as worn, ect. Will that happen? i don't know, but it would be fun.
To me, we should have to goal of being as real as possible while being reasonably safe, not trying to play the game the same way for ever. Now if something is innately to dangerous to try, then that is a reason to not do it. Simply because some people are happy with the way things are, that is no reason to not attempt to improve. Most people would probably like combat just as much with the minor level of grappling Rhys is suggesting. If they don't want to do it then they don't have to grab weapons, if it can be done safely then people should have the option.
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SyrRhys
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cheval:
<B>Try to loosen up and let the fighting community 'breathe' a little. Rhys does not propose that it's his way or the highway, despite the high rhetoric he uses. At best, it's a ploy to get your attention (it did, didn't it?); he is probably more aware than many just how hard it is to effect even the slightest amount of course-correction in the future direction of the SCA juggernaut. In fact, it may only be men of his substantial 'presence' that can really pull it off *eg*.... -c-
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hey, is that a fat joke!? :-O LOL!
<B>Try to loosen up and let the fighting community 'breathe' a little. Rhys does not propose that it's his way or the highway, despite the high rhetoric he uses. At best, it's a ploy to get your attention (it did, didn't it?); he is probably more aware than many just how hard it is to effect even the slightest amount of course-correction in the future direction of the SCA juggernaut. In fact, it may only be men of his substantial 'presence' that can really pull it off *eg*.... -c-
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hey, is that a fat joke!? :-O LOL!
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SyrRhys
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sarnac:
<B>
Maybe this is why I have a problem....
I fail to comprehend why the rest of the Society, who are playing by the rules as they are written now, have to conform to your idea of how this game is to be played, or "try something else".....
In my mind it is you who need to play the way everyone else is in the Society or "try somethin else"...like some of what you do with the tourney companies as you have stated earlier, which is admirable....however asking the thousands of fighters, who are happy with things as is, within the Society to change the rules to suit you is unrealistic at best.
HRH Darius is a good man, and I admire him for letting you experiment....but do you honestly think that this kind could become the norm?
I am looking for your honest opinon here....I am interested how you see this being implemented if you had your way...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If I was asking for something purely because I thought it was fun you would have a good point; who am I to try to make the world into my image? But the fact is that as a living historian I have a duty to attempt to make the organization of which I am a part live up to the ideals it claims to espouse, and which are enshrined in it's charter, to wit: the study of medieval life.
Since the changes I suggest are aimed not at making the SCA the way *I* want it to be (you don't want to know what *that* would be like!), but rather at more closely simulating medieval tournament combat, I don't feel any qualms about trying to institute them.
When I first started fighting (lo, these many hundreds of years ago... ) face thrusting wasn't legal in the East kingdom. I, along with many others, resisted this new inovation, because I felt it would cause fighting to degenerate into nothing more than fencing, a prospect that filled me with revulsion. I was wrong. The fact is that the face thrust is just another technique, like all the others, and techniques simply aren't that important (although doing them well is!); if they were, all the top fighters would fight the same way as they discovered the "one true way". Amateurs study techniques, professionals study strategy.
So it is with these grappling techniques: Yes, they will change the face of our combat system, but dangerous men will still be dangerous men, and there will always be whiners blaming the rule system for their inability to win, just as they do now. As least if we change the system to make it more realistic we will limit even the appearance of validity for these claims. In the end, we'll learn how to use them and we'll learn how to defeat them, and we'll go on. And best of all, we'll be going in the direction we should: Toward more accurate medieval reenactment.
Do I think these things are implementable? Who knows. I have infinite faith in the ability of my fellow man to do the wrong thing (if you don't believe me, just look at all the liberals in government!)<grin>; for me, not only is the glass half empty instead of half full, but the water's polluted. But that pessimism doesn't excuse me from trying. Was it Adam Smith who said: "All that is required for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing"?
These innovations aren't the end of what I'm trying to institute; in fact, they're a bare beginning. I want to make the whole body a legal target, I want to expand grappling, and I want to change the ways blows are judged by different weapons, just to name a few. But this is a good start. Combined with the counted blow system I helped to institute, these new grappling rules will make our current fighting system *much* more realistic.
------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
<B>
Maybe this is why I have a problem....
I fail to comprehend why the rest of the Society, who are playing by the rules as they are written now, have to conform to your idea of how this game is to be played, or "try something else".....
In my mind it is you who need to play the way everyone else is in the Society or "try somethin else"...like some of what you do with the tourney companies as you have stated earlier, which is admirable....however asking the thousands of fighters, who are happy with things as is, within the Society to change the rules to suit you is unrealistic at best.
HRH Darius is a good man, and I admire him for letting you experiment....but do you honestly think that this kind could become the norm?
I am looking for your honest opinon here....I am interested how you see this being implemented if you had your way...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If I was asking for something purely because I thought it was fun you would have a good point; who am I to try to make the world into my image? But the fact is that as a living historian I have a duty to attempt to make the organization of which I am a part live up to the ideals it claims to espouse, and which are enshrined in it's charter, to wit: the study of medieval life.
Since the changes I suggest are aimed not at making the SCA the way *I* want it to be (you don't want to know what *that* would be like!), but rather at more closely simulating medieval tournament combat, I don't feel any qualms about trying to institute them.
When I first started fighting (lo, these many hundreds of years ago... ) face thrusting wasn't legal in the East kingdom. I, along with many others, resisted this new inovation, because I felt it would cause fighting to degenerate into nothing more than fencing, a prospect that filled me with revulsion. I was wrong. The fact is that the face thrust is just another technique, like all the others, and techniques simply aren't that important (although doing them well is!); if they were, all the top fighters would fight the same way as they discovered the "one true way". Amateurs study techniques, professionals study strategy.
So it is with these grappling techniques: Yes, they will change the face of our combat system, but dangerous men will still be dangerous men, and there will always be whiners blaming the rule system for their inability to win, just as they do now. As least if we change the system to make it more realistic we will limit even the appearance of validity for these claims. In the end, we'll learn how to use them and we'll learn how to defeat them, and we'll go on. And best of all, we'll be going in the direction we should: Toward more accurate medieval reenactment.
Do I think these things are implementable? Who knows. I have infinite faith in the ability of my fellow man to do the wrong thing (if you don't believe me, just look at all the liberals in government!)<grin>; for me, not only is the glass half empty instead of half full, but the water's polluted. But that pessimism doesn't excuse me from trying. Was it Adam Smith who said: "All that is required for evil to triumph is that good men do nothing"?
These innovations aren't the end of what I'm trying to institute; in fact, they're a bare beginning. I want to make the whole body a legal target, I want to expand grappling, and I want to change the ways blows are judged by different weapons, just to name a few. But this is a good start. Combined with the counted blow system I helped to institute, these new grappling rules will make our current fighting system *much* more realistic.
------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
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sarnac
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ok...so now that I have been curtly cuffed and told to "stand up and pay attention you young pup" by our illustrious Cheval.. 
...
How do you plan on moving this from the experimental stage where it is now...to widespread use among the fighting community at large...which is what I am reading that you want to do eventually...
...How do you plan on moving this from the experimental stage where it is now...to widespread use among the fighting community at large...which is what I am reading that you want to do eventually...
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Lodhur
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Sorry if I spread mis-information in my previous anecdote. But it seems you all have cleared that up. I do understand what you mean Sir Rhys, & if I didn't I would by the time I read the thread this far.
Like I said, I'm not against it. But its not something I really care for, unlike combat archery. If I might re-iterate & clarify:
"I could see special tourneys & demos, as have been done before; but not general SCA fighting."
Certainly not melees. The armour factor is the big thing here. As was said before, & especially with less than authentic quality, "You never know what the armour will do." It becomes really dangerous in the press & pile of bodies. The only problem with it in general tourney is that; when most people are training for tourney fighting, those "limited grappling" techniques will start to seep into their melee style just by instinct. Which leads me too my next point...
"We would really need to have a whole infrastructure built around preparing fighters to be able to use even limited techniques safely."
As has been said before. Teaching people to fall safely would be a good start. Not a bad policy anyway, grappling or no grappling. I'm not saying that you're proposing throwing or tripping. These techniques *are* intended to put people off balance, which increases the likelihood of falling. There would be a whole slew of other things to learn. Surely you know better than I.
"IF that were the case, it should still be limited to very basic; shield to body, body to body, body to weapon contact."
No more than a re-statement of what you have said.
"There are alot of other things I would like to see first."
I'm certainly not saying that it can't, or shouldn't be done. The WWF references are a legitimate point, however. There's enough of that type of 'Smackdown' stuff that goes on anyway. If we started actively implementing what you're proposing society wide right now, that 'LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!' atmosphere would tag along for the ride, whether we like it or not. There are a lot of things to do before that, & it needs to be made part of an overall effort towards more authentic combat on an official level.
Holding special tourneys & demos is a good place to start, of course. Let people see it done right. One day, I will have the 'personal presence', knowledge, & overall respectability to effect changes in the manner which you seem to be doing. Thank you for setting for me a positive example.
Like I said, I'm not against it. But its not something I really care for, unlike combat archery. If I might re-iterate & clarify:
"I could see special tourneys & demos, as have been done before; but not general SCA fighting."
Certainly not melees. The armour factor is the big thing here. As was said before, & especially with less than authentic quality, "You never know what the armour will do." It becomes really dangerous in the press & pile of bodies. The only problem with it in general tourney is that; when most people are training for tourney fighting, those "limited grappling" techniques will start to seep into their melee style just by instinct. Which leads me too my next point...
"We would really need to have a whole infrastructure built around preparing fighters to be able to use even limited techniques safely."
As has been said before. Teaching people to fall safely would be a good start. Not a bad policy anyway, grappling or no grappling. I'm not saying that you're proposing throwing or tripping. These techniques *are* intended to put people off balance, which increases the likelihood of falling. There would be a whole slew of other things to learn. Surely you know better than I.
"IF that were the case, it should still be limited to very basic; shield to body, body to body, body to weapon contact."
No more than a re-statement of what you have said.
"There are alot of other things I would like to see first."
I'm certainly not saying that it can't, or shouldn't be done. The WWF references are a legitimate point, however. There's enough of that type of 'Smackdown' stuff that goes on anyway. If we started actively implementing what you're proposing society wide right now, that 'LET'S GET READY TO RUMBLE!!!' atmosphere would tag along for the ride, whether we like it or not. There are a lot of things to do before that, & it needs to be made part of an overall effort towards more authentic combat on an official level.
Holding special tourneys & demos is a good place to start, of course. Let people see it done right. One day, I will have the 'personal presence', knowledge, & overall respectability to effect changes in the manner which you seem to be doing. Thank you for setting for me a positive example.
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SyrRhys
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sarnac:
How do you plan on moving this from the experimental stage where it is now...to widespread use among the fighting community at large...which is what I am reading that you want to do eventually...</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
By showing people how interesting these things are; by teaching them that *this* is what medieval combat was like; by showing them how ridiculous and silly are their Victorian notions of chivalry. By showing them that John Chandos and William Marshall are *much* cooler than any fantasy character out of myth like Lancelot or Ivanhoe, and that medieval Europe is a thousand times more interesting than Camelot could ever be.
But first we experiment to show them their concerns (real or assumed) are completely unfounded, then we go on from there.
------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
[This message has been edited by SyrRhys (edited 02-02-2002).]
How do you plan on moving this from the experimental stage where it is now...to widespread use among the fighting community at large...which is what I am reading that you want to do eventually...</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
By showing people how interesting these things are; by teaching them that *this* is what medieval combat was like; by showing them how ridiculous and silly are their Victorian notions of chivalry. By showing them that John Chandos and William Marshall are *much* cooler than any fantasy character out of myth like Lancelot or Ivanhoe, and that medieval Europe is a thousand times more interesting than Camelot could ever be.
But first we experiment to show them their concerns (real or assumed) are completely unfounded, then we go on from there.
------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
[This message has been edited by SyrRhys (edited 02-02-2002).]
Sarnac: "...now that I have been curtly cuffed and told to 'stand up and pay attention you young pup'..."
So, are you listening now *grin*?? I just hope you remember these words when you find yourself counseling some young, energetic King a few years down the road with the tolerance, wisdom, and forbearance your advanced years will bring you *vbg*....
-c-:"it may only be men of his substantial 'presence' that can really pull it off *eg*.... -c-"
Rhys: "Hey, is that a fat joke!? :-O LOL!"
Mind like a steel trap, Rhys -- nothing get's past you *g*...
Lodhur: "Teaching people to fall safely would be a good start."
Nothing Rhys has currently proposed includes trips, throws, or takedowns. There should be no more falling using the shoving and grabbing techniques he suggests than we currently experience. Why? Because the changes do not effect an alteration in the victory conditions, and they currently depend on your opponent being upright before he may be struck (remember, none of these techniques count as blows; they are only meant to put your opponent into a position where you may better strike them). Strategically, then, it's a Bad Thing *tm* to put your opponent on his back, since the fight must pause while he is allowed to regain his stance. In short, falling down is not the desired result. You will use these techniques to foul and control your opponent's balance, not to knock him over.
With respect,
-cheval-
So, are you listening now *grin*?? I just hope you remember these words when you find yourself counseling some young, energetic King a few years down the road with the tolerance, wisdom, and forbearance your advanced years will bring you *vbg*....
-c-:"it may only be men of his substantial 'presence' that can really pull it off *eg*.... -c-"
Rhys: "Hey, is that a fat joke!? :-O LOL!"
Mind like a steel trap, Rhys -- nothing get's past you *g*...
Lodhur: "Teaching people to fall safely would be a good start."
Nothing Rhys has currently proposed includes trips, throws, or takedowns. There should be no more falling using the shoving and grabbing techniques he suggests than we currently experience. Why? Because the changes do not effect an alteration in the victory conditions, and they currently depend on your opponent being upright before he may be struck (remember, none of these techniques count as blows; they are only meant to put your opponent into a position where you may better strike them). Strategically, then, it's a Bad Thing *tm* to put your opponent on his back, since the fight must pause while he is allowed to regain his stance. In short, falling down is not the desired result. You will use these techniques to foul and control your opponent's balance, not to knock him over.
With respect,
-cheval-
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Murdock
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"Teaching people to fall safely would be a good start. "
Absolutely, we need to do that now. Grappling or no grappling. To often at wars you hear of people getting hurt from falling down when "killed". I'm amased we don't see mopre neck injuries the way some people fall, they don't tuck their chin and wonder why their neck hurts.
But unless we add in throws and sweeps (which i don't think is being suggested) the grappling Rhys is proposing wouldn't neccessitate too much extra training.
Absolutely, we need to do that now. Grappling or no grappling. To often at wars you hear of people getting hurt from falling down when "killed". I'm amased we don't see mopre neck injuries the way some people fall, they don't tuck their chin and wonder why their neck hurts.
But unless we add in throws and sweeps (which i don't think is being suggested) the grappling Rhys is proposing wouldn't neccessitate too much extra training.
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Vincent_c=={=====-
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SyrRhys
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by cheval:
<B>Nothing Rhys has currently proposed includes trips, throws, or takedowns. There should be no more falling using the shoving and grabbing techniques he suggests than we currently experience. Why? Because the changes do not effect an alteration in the victory conditions, and they currently depend on your opponent being upright before he may be struck (remember, none of these techniques count as blows; they are only meant to put your opponent into a position where you may better strike them). Strategically, then, it's a Bad Thing *tm* to put your opponent on his back, since the fight must pause while he is allowed to regain his stance. In short, falling down is not the desired result. You will use these techniques to foul and control your opponent's balance, not to knock him over.
With respect,
-cheval-</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
One correction: The two specific techniques I asked permission to use experimentally don't involve anyone falling down, it's true, but I *do* support techniques that can cause such a result, such as knocking people down with the haft of your pole weapon (which is leagal under the SCAs current rules). In the Company of St. Michael combat system (which many tournament companies are starting to use), touching the ground with any part of your body other than the soles of your feet or being pushed out of the lists counts against you, and I would like to see more techniques used that played to those rules (just not trips or throws). After all, people get knocked down in huge melees all the time with no real injury problem.
And the fat joke hurt. I'm crushed in my delicate ego <grin>. Do I know you?
------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
<B>Nothing Rhys has currently proposed includes trips, throws, or takedowns. There should be no more falling using the shoving and grabbing techniques he suggests than we currently experience. Why? Because the changes do not effect an alteration in the victory conditions, and they currently depend on your opponent being upright before he may be struck (remember, none of these techniques count as blows; they are only meant to put your opponent into a position where you may better strike them). Strategically, then, it's a Bad Thing *tm* to put your opponent on his back, since the fight must pause while he is allowed to regain his stance. In short, falling down is not the desired result. You will use these techniques to foul and control your opponent's balance, not to knock him over.
With respect,
-cheval-</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
One correction: The two specific techniques I asked permission to use experimentally don't involve anyone falling down, it's true, but I *do* support techniques that can cause such a result, such as knocking people down with the haft of your pole weapon (which is leagal under the SCAs current rules). In the Company of St. Michael combat system (which many tournament companies are starting to use), touching the ground with any part of your body other than the soles of your feet or being pushed out of the lists counts against you, and I would like to see more techniques used that played to those rules (just not trips or throws). After all, people get knocked down in huge melees all the time with no real injury problem.
And the fat joke hurt. I'm crushed in my delicate ego <grin>. Do I know you?
------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
-
Richard Blackmoore
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4990
- Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Bay Shore, NY USA
His excellency, Sir Rhys is not fat. He merely carries the weight of having once borne the crown of the East upon his shoulders. And his hips. And his stomach...
PS.
Since I am now overweight from 5 months of eating badly (or too well!) and not getting exercise, I too resent the fat old knight jokes. At least when they are directed at me instead of at Rhys...
PS.
Since I am now overweight from 5 months of eating badly (or too well!) and not getting exercise, I too resent the fat old knight jokes. At least when they are directed at me instead of at Rhys...