The Armour Archive

This came up in another thread, and I figured it deserved its own thread.
I have thought a lot about grappeling being added to SCA combat, I think it could add to the overall flavor and make things more realistic and fun in a lot of ways.
But, I have serious concerns.
Before I chimed in here, I talked to my best friend. He used to do SCA combat, and was quite good. He now does proffesional competitive Muay Tai kickboxing, has a blue belt in Gracie Brazilian Jue Jitsu, and a lot of Filipino Kali and JKD experience under his belt. I have studied all of the above, but at a casual level where He has made it his life. I wanted to get his thoughts as I felt he would be able to formulate a much more educated opinion than I. So without telling him what I thought or why, I asked him what he thought about LIMITED grappeling being introduced to SCA combat. He said almost exactly the same things I was thinking, which I will now share.
While on the surface it sounds like fun, overall it would be a piss-poor idea.
A)There are no training levels or weight classes in the SCA. When hitting eachother with sticks, this is not such a problem, but when you get up close and personal with grappeling, this is potentialy very dangerous.
B)Armor changes the way the body can move and adds weight. This can make you react less predictably and with less control than you think you have.
C)The liklihood for misunderstandings and hurt feelings goes up dramaticly. Within the way we fight now there are frequently misunderstandings as to what someone intended to do.(like an accidental basket punch to the face. It happens, rarely intentionaly, but sometimes people still get pissed.) I think the liklihood for these misunderstandings goes up when physical contact is introduced.
D) Rule enforcement. Rule enforcement is pretty pathetic now as it is. I would not like to see a 300 pound guy grappling with a 120 pound woman without knowledge that there was a good safety system in place to make sure she didn`t get hurt. As things stand now, I don`t see that.
E) there are people who will twist, bend, push, and even break the rules if they think they can get away with it and it will get them a victory. Chivalry means nothing to some people but something to exploit to there own ends. When you add physical contact to this mentality, it is very likely that people will be hurt intentionaly.
F) While period in practice, they took this much more seriously than we do (or should )Taking a broken arm in tourney while a bummer was part of the sport for them. We have real lives to get back to and can`t afford the luxury of making the tournament our lives.
G) While real knights were athletes, and competitive martial artist are athletes, most of us are not. Our bodys are not prepared for the kind of stress this could put on them. Added to this is the fact that most fighters do not stretch or anything before fighting.(bending down to pick up your armor bag doesn`t count ) This I think is in part why so many SCAdians blow out there knees.
That covers most of my thoughts on the subject. I would like to hear what other people have to say on this. I freely admit that there are angles I havn`t thought of, and I think this deserves to be looked at seriously.
John

I'd basically agrre with your buddy.

In a limited setting, small list with people you know. Then yeah it would work, on a large scale no it would be a meat grinder.

Noe we also have to definge grappling. Now i don't wanna see NHB with armour, i don't think anyone else does. But allowing some expanded grabbing of weapons, maybe grabbing baskets or arms, we could probably do that.

Fiore arm locks, throws, ground fighting ect would be bad. You'd have broken arms a pleanty , and thats just not fun.

I would support a rule change to allow it if:

1) Its not allowed in wars (though we all know that some of this happens currently)

2) Both combatants must agree and announce it to the Marshals before the bout.

3) Same hitting on the ground rules apply. People are allowed to get back up if they hit the ground.

4) No shield punches, No kicks. No striking with metal parts of a weapon not designed with a legal SCA striking or thrusting surface. No locks or throws that are designed to break arms and such.

I'm sure there are some others I've forgotten.. but I think rules could be written which would make it at least as safe as current SCA warfare.

What we are really talking about here is body to bladed weapon and body to body grappling. There already is limited grappling as we now have it. If I have a guantletted hand, I can use it to grab the non-bladed portion of my opponent's weapon or shield. I can use my shield or weapon to pin and hold the non-bladed part of my opponents weapon against my body or shield (do this all the time with polearms).

Frankly I can get tossed about as it is without grappling. A good shield push or haft launch against my shield is perfectly legal. It just isn't a war if I don't land on my butt with several 400 lb guys on top of me

It would be my own fault if I agreed to grappling with some bruiser..

-Juliana

No, No, No and NO....if for no other reason than "grappling" is considered unchivalrous in SCA combat. Now for the real reason

I am 6,1 and 280pnds I wrestled in highschool and have been a student of martial arts over the years. IF I steped on the list with the intention of grappling someone, I could really hurt them. Especially if my opponent physical stature was like Vitus's. No offense to Vitus but standing next to me, Vitus is very short. Now if I ever could get ahold of the willy little guy, I could do some major damage just by accident if not on purpose. And being trained to throw my weight around as it were, I am even more dangerous in a physical conflict. Now I am not bragging I am just stating a fact. Grappling brings a whole new level of "real" danger to any fight, especially in SCA combat.

Now if someone came up to me and said " hey lets do some off site fighting using grappling." I would say yes, after I informed them that I have been trained in grappling before hand. I would be open to try it, but I just don't think it works well with our kind of fighting.

Just think of it this way, it is the finals of the Crown Tourney and Duke "hits hard" and Sir lightning stick" are on the ground in the middle of the list wrestling in full armor for the Crown.........Kind of a disturbing visual if you ask me....

Insane Irish

Last year at a war we held an invite only tourney that did involve grappeling. The Result was a resounding success, but we did note that when larger guys fought smaller ones, there was a clear possibility that injury could have occured. Some fighters did say afterwards that although it was fun they might not try it again just for the fact that we may have been lucky that no one was hurt. I personally found myself getting upset that the level of force continued to rise as the rounds went on.

All in all, it was a good experiment, and if you try this yourself, be carefull and fight with people you trust. This type of combat should not be tried in an SCA list situation. The risks for all involved would be too great.

You could always use "simulated" force, and act as if real force had been used. Herald McMann, and Marshal "Stone Cold" Bellatrix...

Let's get rrready to LAYYYY ONNNNNNNNN!

Sorry, just had to get that out. Well, maybe not.

Insane Irish said, "NO....if for no other reason than "grappling" is considered unchivalrous in SCA combat."

But isn't it considered "unchivalrous" because it is currently illegal? I submit that a fighter obeying the rules in fact and spirit is not acting "unchivalrous."

Now, I am not saying I support 'rasslin' in the SCA -- I don't. However, I do support the contact level being as high as it can get, legally, under our current rules.

Hmmm...hope that doesn't come back to bite me.

Regards,

Conal

Hiya

I wound definetly not like to see grappling in armour in the list for the very reasons so well stated by my precedesors, BUT.... I was at an event a long long time ago (in a baronny far far away), and an impromptu wrestling tourny broke out during dinner, and since wrestling was considered the knightly method of hand to hand combat, wouldn't it be fun to put together a scadian wreslimg style??
Imagine duke sir (insert fav duke here), and duke master(insert least fav duke here) rassling during dinner???

just a thought!!!

Wow just proof read my last post! Eeeek! forgive the spelling errors, but after all I'm a lord, not a scribe!!

Should the SCA allow more grappling/wrestling rules and if so can it be done safely? In my opinion, yes and yes. I do beleive there are limits to what can safely be added however. There are also ways to make it safer(ie. single combat only, extra authorizations, both combatants must be authorized and agree, only in specially announced tournys, etc, etc). I would like to see grapling of an opponents blade allowed for starters.

One other thing that would be cool is to hold wrestling tourneys. I've been in two such contests at events. At the first I was the lightest guy in the list and still won which was a rush. The second I took an accidental elbow to the throat which really sucked.

Jurgen

FOr one I think it would be fun to hold period style wrestling tournments(

I think we are having terminology issues here. What Sir Rhys brought up in the other thread is not full contact throws, arm locks, etc all in wresting. Grappling is probably a overly broad term to use.

To quote

"I think we should be able to grab, push or pull an opponent in order to knock him down, push him out of the lists, or hold him so we can hit him with little risk beyond that of normal fighting. For example, I'm thinking of the double arm hold shown in both Talhoffer and Fiore."

(There is a built in assumption that if you fall down you lose)
And

"I agree that trips, joint locks and throws are too dangerous to try in armor"


We already have tournaments where you can win or lose based on being pushed out of the lists (I’m going to one in the East next weekend). I removed numerous folks from the bridge battle at Pennsic that way in past years. The only addition would be that you can push against the body rather than just a weapon or shield.

Right now you can grab the non bladed part of someone’s weapon (you can’t grab shields according to the rules, you can push them but you can’t grasp) and hold it, while using your weapon to hit the other person. It doesn’t seem like much of a reach to allow it for arms (and shields).

On these two points I don’t see a huge rise in the risk level

I understand that some folks would not be comfortable with being pushed to the ground (with training its not a big deal). But how many times have you been knocked sprawling in a melee? I was running behind a unit at Estrella that seemed to get most of their “killsâ€

I would not mind being thrown around a bit by InsaneIrish, but do I want to experience arm locks and throws? No.
I am very, very strong for my size. So what? I still don't want that big mutha to lock my arms or sit on me. Hahahaha!
-V

I am 6'1" and 240-220 (depending on the time of year) standing in my socks and boxers.
I'm not that big compared to some of the guys I know (6'8" 325# for instance) but against a 5'2" person, I can seriously injure them, or, to put it another way, how many spade fans are there? I wouldn't like the Idea of getting stabbed by one because some jackass tries to clothesline me (hey, there are rhinos now, what makes you think they'll listen to the grappling rules?) 240# of me headed into someone else at as fast as I can be trhown is a bad thing, and I'm light by most of the people I know in the SCA.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Asbjorn Johansen:
<B>I think we are having terminology issues here. What Sir Rhys brought up in the other thread is not full contact throws, arm locks, etc all in wresting. Grappling is probably a overly broad term to use.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank You! In two separate lists you're the only person who accurately read what I wrote.

Can you suggest a term that's better than grappling? I think it's exactly the correct term, but it clearly has such strong connotations that most people other than yourself who responded didn't even bother to read what I wrote.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Originally posted by Asbjorn Johansen:
I think we are having terminology issues here. What Sir Rhys brought up in the other thread is not full contact throws, arm locks, etc all in wresting. Grappling is probably a overly broad term to use.

Nope, I got it. I just think it opens the door for braoder "interpretations" leading to the problems I cited above. Another scenario I see is some fat ass no talent hacks turning the list field into mismatched Sumo in armor, and I don`t think anyone wants to see that.
My concerns are not in fact for my safety, as I have enough training in some truly brutal and effective forms to hold My own, but by the same token, as others said, I could just as easily accidently hurt someone. I am more concerned about people unprepared for this type of contact getting hurt by people who do not know what they are doing, people who will escalate the force levels for whatever reasons, people who will outright cheat to win, and people who like to hurt other people. We have all of the above in the SCA, and though some are few and far between, most of us have crossed swords with them at one time or another.
Then there is the potetial lawsuit issue. If as I suspect, people started doing limeted grappeling, and more people were hurt, some badly, there would likely be lawsuits. That is the kind of sad-ass society we live in. Several of those and the SCA would be in real trouble. The waivers we sign would not hold up. Someone would find ways around them.
If folks want to do limeted grappeling in armor, do it at home with your friends on your own time. Keep it away from sanctioned SCA events. Thats my opinion, and I will be sticking to it.
But when you do, please post and tell us how it went. I would be very interested, and when I get a practice going here, I may check it out for myself. More likely when Auto comes to visit (Auto is the Tai boxer I mentioned in my above post)we will check it out.
Out of curiousity, can someone post a pic of this double arm hold mentioned?
John

That is in the end my point. Is that with the rules as they are I have had 325 lb sir so&so push me out of the list. Just give him the legal ability to do that and pretty soon you have armoured Sumo, and 350 lb shoving matches in the middle of the list
IMHO

Markland uses limited grappling with success.

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

We already have tournaments where you can win or lose based on being pushed out of the lists (I’m going to one in the East next weekend).

Asbjorn, I plan on being at Birka too. Hope to meet you there.

Some people have given good arguments here, but I am still not convinced. If people do start to experiment with the idea I would be interested to see a copy of the rules and what the expected condict would be. I also wonder what the attitude would be if it became an accepted form in the list if agreed upon before hand by both participants, and one guy wanted to and another of about the same size and skill didn`t. Would there be a stigma atatched?
I personaly might be open to trying it out, but I still think for the SCA at large it would be a bad idea. I will agree however that I may be painting a more grim picture than may be neccisary, and much of my concerns may be a bit overblown. I have been known to be a pessimist from time to time
If some of you do decide to experiment then please be carefull. Always keep control formost in your head. Remember we are here to beat our friends, not hurt them. Also as I said before, post on how it is going. I would love to be proven wrong here since as I said, I think it could add another dimension of realism and skill to what we do.
John

I've only really experienced any form of unarmed combat in armor once. At a fighter practice I was fighting with a greatsword versus another greatsword. We ended up corps-a-corps with our weapons hopelessly entangled. While struggling for leverage (and the other guy's sword) we hit the ground and ditched the swords completely, giving in to the impulse to goof off and throw mock punches into the other guy's grill and roll around like drunken brawlers. It was a blast. Both of us agreed it would be entertaining for demos or something, but I don't think it really belongs in a tournament or war.
It's not a matter of period/non-period or chivalrous/unchivalrous - the real truth is it's a matter of safety in the end.

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Long live the Prince and Princess of Cynagua!

aa few years back there was a bear pit turney in aethealmarc that was a blast. grapling in full armour can be done but there has to be done right. there where no shields great weapons or poll arms. short swords and small mass weapons where it.
fought till subission in 4inches of saw dust.
it was a blast. the only winners where the gamblers in the audiance. gold coins at 25 cents each procides to benifit kingdom something or other. who ever had the most I think recived a basket or somthing.
it was a lot of fun almost thunderdome meets
wwf.
there was even a folding chair. if i rember right there where 15-20 and the most sevear injury was some sawdust down the back.
pictures are hear http://www.shieldcam.com/pics/defender's%20of%20amaral/page.html

the bear pit are the last few heavey weapons pictures at night.
it was the best turney I have ever been to.

Once you open up the rules. You might as well go for authentic period fighting. However I would expect to lose some people based on size and Pain threshold. (I guess I would like to see this done before I tried)

Khann

Sir Rhys quote: "Thank You! In two separate lists you're the only person who accurately read what I wrote."

Oh really? I read it accurately. I simply did not have any comments to add!

-Richard.

PS. I am really enjoying your involvement in the archive. It would be interesting to see what some of your tournament company acquaintances have to contribute. Please pass the URL to them when if you agree.

I have done 'NHB' submission fighting in the SCA, last Estrella. However, It was a small, close knit group. It was bloody, but the injuries were minor. We all knew what we were walking into. Being 6'1", 175#; I don't grapple well. I pretty much countered any attempted grabs or lunges with basket or shield to the face. (no, this was not a sanctioned tourney)

The guy who won pretty much just dropped his weapons, grabbed his opponent about the midsection, & threw him down, then began twisting/pulling the others' helm until it popped off or they gave up. That's probably not what you meant.

I could see special tourneys & demos, as have been done before; but not general SCA fighting. We would really need to have a whole infrastructure built around preparing fighters to be able to use even limited techniques safely. IF that were the case, it should still be limited to very basic; shield to body, body to body, body to weapon contact.

There are alot of other things I would like to see first.

I dont know if this has been considered here yet, but you also have to take into account the armour they are wearing. I wear semi gothic plate, with lots of points and angles. Normally, the points wouldnt be a problem unless we are doing something like dagger buckler fighting, but if we get right up in each others faces then I would be concerned about coppe fans or the point on my plackart hurting someone. I've used large pointed floating couters before, and I know that getting elbowed by them even slightly hurts alot. Well, just throwing in another variable to consider.

I think Rhys is just tired of not being able to grab shields and all weapon blades.
-V

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Richard Blackmoore:
<B>
Oh really? I read it accurately. I simply did not have any comments to add!

-Richard.

PS. I am really enjoying your involvement in the archive. It would be interesting to see what some of your tournament company acquaintances have to contribute. Please pass the URL to them when if you agree.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, Richard, please forgive me. What I meant to say was that he was the only one who had posted anything on the subject who read what I wrote accurately. I apologize for writing that poorly.

And thank you for what you said about my involvement. This is always an uphill struggle for me, as the entrenched SCAdians don't want to change anything at all because they like things as they are, and the real authenticity folks outside the SCA always want to ignore the prowess side of knighthood (or want to change the rules to make it a game). Being stuck in the middle is awkward and often uncomfortable for me.


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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vitus:
<B>I think Rhys is just tired of not being able to grab shields and all weapon blades.
-V</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I want is to be able to fight as much like a medieval knight in tournament as humanly and safely possible. I want to know what it was like to be a knight; I want to know how *they* did things. I want to do *living history*, not to belong to a group that pays it lip service while really just being an outlet for frustrated D&D types.

Yesterday I met with Crown Prince Darius of the East. He gave me permission to begin experimenting with *limited* grappling techniques. Specifically, he allowed pushing with your hand against your opponent's body and grabbing your opponent's sword blade in order to immobilize it so you can strike him.

Of course, the dungeon bunnies in attendance immediately jumped in: I heard cries of how you can't grab a blade because you'll get you hand cut (is there anyone who really still believes this???); then I heard that grabbing the blade would cause broken wrists, etc. (although the people in question couldn't answer why this is any more dangerous than grabbing the hilts of swords or the hafts of pole weapons! LOL!).

I tried the double arm grab shown in Fiore and Talhoffer with two of my brother knights, and got a reaction I did *not* expect: When I applied the lock, the gentleman whom I grabbed felt that his wrists were under tremendous strain, and that if I continued he would be injured. This knight is *not* one of the spineless types I would have expected to hear this kind of thing from; he's a serious fighter. I don't know. I'm certainly still in favor of this technique, but I think I better experiment with it a lot more before I try to spread it widely.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lodhur:
<B>I have done 'NHB' submission fighting in the SCA, last Estrella. However, It was a small, close knit group. It was bloody, but the injuries were minor. We all knew what we were walking into. Being 6'1", 175#; I don't grapple well. I pretty much countered any attempted grabs or lunges with basket or shield to the face. (no, this was not a sanctioned tourney)

The guy who won pretty much just dropped his weapons, grabbed his opponent about the midsection, & threw him down, then began twisting/pulling the others' helm until it popped off or they gave up. That's probably not what you meant.

I could see special tourneys & demos, as have been done before; but not general SCA fighting. We would really need to have a whole infrastructure built around preparing fighters to be able to use even limited techniques safely. IF that were the case, it should still be limited to very basic; shield to body, body to body, body to weapon contact.

There are alot of other things I would like to see first.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Based on your what you wrote I must conclude you didn't read the specific types of techniques I suggested. Please go back and re-read them.

Based on your difficulties in using grappling, I would further suggest a course of training designed to teach you how. If you live close enough to PA I would be happy to teach you.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Question about semantics here:

By grappling do you mean throws, rolls, joint holds/locks, etc?

I've been learning jujitsu and judo for a little while. I'm a relatively small guy (150lbs), and would have no concerns grappling a large guy. I learn my throws practicing with a 300lb guy. When everyone is trained properly, size is irrevalant for grappling. In my case, I'd have advantage over a large man because I've learned how to use their increased mass against them to cause greater impact.

It is the person being thrown who is responsible for not being hurt. I trained in safefalls and rolls for 1 year before sensei would let me be thrown, or to throw someone else.

Conclusion: SCA would need a new authorization for grappling, but it could be done. There would be more injuries as well. I see many more injuries from sparring in jujitsu/judo than I see in the SCA. More serious as well. Armour does what it's supposed to.

BTW: I have no problem doing all the safefalls, kicks, rolls, and throws in my armour.

<<< Conclusion: SCA would need a new authorization for grappling, but it could be done.>>>

No this couldn’t because as you said –it’s the person thrown who needs to fall safely. If this is the case, then people could avoid grappling matches by not authorizing in it. In otherwords, if I don’t authorize in grappling, you can’t throw me because I haven’t shown that I can fall safey.

<<< I've been learning jujitsu and judo for a little while. I'm a relatively small guy (150lbs), and would have no concerns grappling a large guy. I learn my throws practicing with a 300lb guy. When everyone is trained properly, size is irrevalant for grappling.>>>

I learned jujitsu and judo too, but this is a different type of grappling because we are in armor and carrying weapons and possibly shields. Even if we could learn to throw safely and land safely –you just never know what the armor, or weapons are going to do. Another thing to consider is if the person doesn’t want to be thrown. It’s easy to throw that 300lb guy when he stands there and lets you. I wrestled in high school for 3 years and learned how to prevent my opponent from throwing me. The problem arises when fighter A attempts to throw fighter B, but fighter B attempts not to be thrown –but is anyway. This leads to the throwee landing wrong, possibly with the thrower, and being injured.

(^_^)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Edwin:
<B>Question about semantics here:

By grappling do you mean throws, rolls, joint holds/locks, etc?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NO! As I said earlier, I believe that all we can safely do is push or hold our opponents. Look, for example, at the holding techniques shown here:

http://zr13.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/cgi-bin/ebind_manessebilder?manessebilder

You will note that none of these paintings show joint locks or throws or trips (well, most of this is mounted grappling, but you get the idea), etc. The kinds of joint locks and complex grappling and wrestling moves shown in the fechtbucher are either almost impossible to do while wearing gauntlets or are completely unsafe.

No throws. No joint locks. No trips. No leg sweeps.

Grabbing the blade of someone's sword to hold it out of the way while you hit them with yours? Absolutely! Grabbing their arm to immobilize it so you can hit them? Yes! Using your hand to push them around so you can hit them? Of course! Pushing someone out of the lists (which would only have value in accurate re-creation tournaments, not in regular SCA fights)? Yes!

These are the kinds of things we can and should add to our combat system to make it more realistic without adding even a slightly increased level of danger.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

(Note Syr Rys and I replied at about the same time)
Some of the questions being asked here would seem to indicate that some of us have not read the comments that caused this thread.
To quote the comments that Syr Rhys made in the original thread.
"I think we should be able to grab, push or pull an opponent in order to knock him down, push him out of the lists, or hold him so we can hit him with little risk beyond that of normal fighting. For example, I'm thinking of the double arm hold shown in both Talhoffer and Fiore."
(There is a built in assumption that if you fall down you lose)
And
"I agree that trips, joint locks and throws are too dangerous to try in armor"
Syr Rhys is specifically not advocating the types of complicated and potentially dangerous throws shown in the fetbutch, and used in fighting systems such as jujitsu etc.

Think about the implications of the rules as he stated them.

Right now if you are using a polearm I can grab your haft, pull it down and hit you in the head with my weapon.

Under Syr Rhys’ rules you could grab his arm, pull it down and do the same.

Under his rules you could not grab his arm and lock it behind him (joint lock) or hook the arm step and throw.

There are limits built into the statements.

Given the limitations, no locks, throws or trips, grasping and pushing would be used to get an opponents weapon out of the way so you can hit them, or control a shield (which as long as you don’t grasp it, you can already do by Societies minimums).

As for pushing someone down, its already a common melee tactic, and its much more difficult to do to someone in a one on one fight, regardless of size difference. What it does is stop someone from doing the chancy things that SCA combat allows – attacks that are way off balance, overly wide stances, leaping attacks.


Syr Rhys, as for how to state you idea in a clearer fashion, I recommend not trying to use one word to some it up, but rather state the idea in its entirety. Terms like grappling, wresting etc. have too much baggage attached.

Here is a rough version of how I would state it:

You may grasp or push an opponent’s body, shield or weapon (including blade if the weapon is not being swung). You may not use a joint lock or submission style hold. You may not grasp an opponents body in order to throw him to the ground.

Asbjorn

The group I am apart of is adding grappling to the shinia combat. We consider it the main form of combat because it allows us to strike the whole body and use more weapons than rattan. It gets closer to actual combat than rattan can. But we limit the grappling. Mostly we use tripping and grabbing techniques. I have a marshal arts instructor who did several years of study with one of the Gracies and we do grappling in my school, but most of that technique is way to hardcore for reenacting. I am setting up a program to teach proper falls and holds, and I have a book that shows 15th and 16th century German grappling in it that we will be using. The authorization will be strict. Not everyone will be allowed to grapple, only curtain combatants, and never in melee.

Whats next???

Entrance music and Pyro???

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by sarnac:
<B>Whats next???

Entrance music and Pyro???</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, what's next is more authentic reenactment of medieval tournament combat. Denigrating slaps about ridiculous modern WWF games can't demean that attempt. All they do is show that people can't get modern paradigms out of their heads and look at medieval combat for what it is.

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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"