Shield question, persona vs advice of a a few knights

[Hanko Kal]

I have been fighting for about two years. All of that time I have spent behind a 24" and later a 26"" centergrip round shield. I have had a few comments from some of the kingdom knights regarding my fighting style and my choice of shield. Several have recommending stepping up to a different style of shield or a bigger shield. My problem with this is that for late period Ottoman, I have not seen anything for research on anything other than the smaller round shield, yes, some center grip and others strapped. Moving to a different shield style would conflict to at least some degree to me being in keeping with trying to work towards a consistent and persona appropriate kit. Do I just go for a larger center grip round with the idea that most of the Ottoman Janissaries wouldn't be 6'4" and 250 or so? Or do I switch to another shield type of the period and not worry so much about it? Or the last option is perhaps the toughest of all, keep what I have and find someone to just keep throwing and throwing until my defense catches up with what I have seen that fits my persona?

Thank you,

Hanko Kale
Tego
Bad Monkey
23rd Hastati Gard

[Malcolm MacLachlan]

My 2 cents is that I would move bigger if you think it would help your fighting. As you say, you're a bigger than average guy so surely, even in period, common sense would've dictated a bigger shield.

I'll bet your helmet, armor, tunic,pants, etc are probably a bit bigger than those found in digs too.

[InsaneIrish]

I think you need to decide which is more important to you. Is a cohesive period looking kit more important or is the sport aspect of what we do more important.

Of course there are always varying degrees of "sport" vs. "period". You just need to find out where you fall on that scale. If enlarging your shield from a 26" to a 30" round will work then a slightly bigger shield shouldn't ruin your look. If the advocates are saying switch to a heater or rectangle et al, well then. If you are ok being the preverbial "viking with a heater shield" then go for it.

[sean of the chipendales]

In my opinion, your fighting is not hindered by your shield(unless its too big). Work on your offense and the defense will follow. I like the idea of a shield that fits your personna.

[Kilkenny]

I would look at the proportional size of the persona appropriate shields.

Then, match your shield to your size accordingly. I think there is something just as "inaccurate" in using a shield proportionally smaller than they used as in using one larger. Sizing your shield just by the measurements of historic shields - Malcolm got it right, your helmet, pants, etc are all sized for you, not matched to grave finds, yes ?

[Robert of Canterbury]

I'm with Sean.

There are numerous highly effective fighters who use bucklers and other small shields.

(There were also entire Regiments of men in History who managed to do quite well with what you use. Janissaries got their reputation for a reason you know.)

Stick with what's right for your kit, learn to use it efffectively.

That said, don't be afraid of picking up something else every now and again at practice, to better understand how other styles work, and to let yourself explore other parts of the fight.

A consistant look on the field is a worthy thing, and not to be given away lightly.

[Thorstenn]

Hanko,

Fight more and different people. Travel a lot. You have only been fighting a few year. Practice with your normal shield it will make you better in the long run.

Train hard, reap the rewards.

Thor.

[DukeAvery]

Please tell us more about your kit, fitness level, and any handicaps.

Right off the bat I can tell you my tall squire (6' 2") who sent on to become a duke himself used a 30" teardrop/oval (I can't recall anymore). I think he could have done it all with a 28", so I think 30" might be a good size for you. The main thing is to not rely on static blocking. For folks who want to use low visibility period visors, this is a conflict. I recognize vision limitation as a serious self-handicap in our game (while realizing that various visors, despite appearances to the contrary, may not limit your lower vision quadrants from which many different shots may be launched from).

Every situation is different.

Regards

Avery

[Talorgen]

My own experience, for what it's worth:

I started fighting with a typical Atlantian heater (about 24x36, give or take). Eventually, fitness issues caused me to have to stop fighting behind anything that large - I simply could not hold it up in an effective guard for long enough to matter. Thankfully, those issues are since largely corrected. The changes that I had to make to stay on the field have lingered.

While addressing those issues, I moved to several smaller, lighter shields. I fought with a 28" round center grip that quickly got decimated. I fought behind a 24" x 44" aluminum kite. I found a 24x30 aluminum heater and fight with it some of the time.

Right now I either fight behind an 8 lb 24" center grip round or behind that 24x30 heater. With the round, I have to work especially hard to cover my shoulders and thighs. With the heater I've got better coverage for both of those but trade speed of shield positioning (even though it's a MUCH lighter shield, I have to move my body more instead of flipping the shield in my grip) for some of the mid body blocks. With the center grip, I can present a defense in a substantially different place than the mass of my body, allowing for types of misdirection that are more difficult to achieve than with a strapped shield.

With all of them, I've had to learn to go from a static block to a deflecting block. My goal is to deflect the force of the incoming blow to somewhere that it's harmless to me. Even with the medium sized heater, that has proven very important - as the dents in the top of my shield will readily attest. I haven't tried fighting behind a larger heater again lately to see whether I can translate the skills effectively.

Moving to a larger or differently-shaped shield will change your defense. It may result in an instant jump in your apparent longevity. For one of my students, moving to a heater from the kite that he was fighting behind resulted in an instant block for about half of the shots with which he was previously getting hit. It also may result in a stagnation of your ability to read certain types of shots, because you see them less clearly. It will affect the ways in which you train your body to move. These are not positive or negative observations - they are the trade-offs which you learn to make.

For myself, I'm building another center grip round, slightly larger, and plan on continuing to switch shield types on a regular basis. I've got another kite in progress, and will probably check out an oval in the near future. For most tourneys I expect to continue fighting with some form of center-grip round or possibly oval shield.

Don't ignore the advice of the more experienced fighters in your area. It's probably worthwhile to try out what they suggest at a practice, and see what the tradeoffs really are in your particular case. But then make up your own mind, and learn to work with both the advantages and the disadvantages of your chosen fighting style.

[Kenwrec Wulfe]

i agree with the above. Keep the right shield for the persona and learn to use it. It will come with time.

[freiman the minstrel]

This is going to be rambling. I apologize for that.

You are thinking correctly. Balancing extant examples against body size is a real quandary, and you are really doing well to worry about it. It is a very accurate approach to take.

One small disclaimer. I know exactly diddly and squat about Janissaries, so I can't talk about that.

I CAN, however, talk about SCA fighting and round shields.

I do Anglo Saxon, from the Sutton Hoo period (675 AD). It's pretty well documented. Plus, it's, like, really cool, in a super sexy, non viking way.

There was a shield found in the Sutton Hoo Royal burial horde. The SMALLEST size that the fittings from the Sutton Hoo royal burial shield would fit is 92 CM (just slightly under 36 and a quarter inches).

One way to decide on how big a shield you need is to put your fists, knuckle to knuckle, in front of you, and measure how much distance is between your elbows. On me, that distance is 31 and a half inches. That is the size that I make my shields.

And all the knights in area started talking about how big my shield was.

Let's do some math.

Area is equal to Pi times radius squared.

For my standard shield, this is

(radius) 15.75
(radius squared) 248 (about)
times Pi (3.1415)

Equals 779.28 square inches (call it 779 and a quarter)

and the smallest shield (Bruce-Mitford said it was probably much larger) shield that would work for the fittings at the Sutton Hoo royal grave is 36 and a quarter. Let's do that math.

(radius) 18.125
(radius squared) 328.5 (about)
times Pi

Equals 1032 (and a bit) square inches.

My shield (the BIG shield) was roughly seventy five percent as large as the smallest shield for my culture and period.

(779.28 divided by 1032 is .7550422285 and a bit)

So, the absolutely smallest shield that would fit the period fittings for my period was a third again as big as my shield. And I felt like these knights were talking about me as being unchivalrous for using a "big shield", when it was very clearly a whole lot smaller than a period shield.

Then I had somebody I respected deeply tell me that I needed to work on my defense, and got a twelve inch buckler out of the pile.

My defense improved dramatically in a very short time. With my left hand freed from the weight it was carrying, I was able to block lots of things that I had previously just run from. I was able to see openings that previously invisible to me (I couldn't see them through all that plywood) and I was able to fight longer and harder. I felt like I was 18 again.

And when I switched back to my normal sized shield this past week (the guy who owned the 12 inch buckler actually showed up and took it home) the best fighter in my kingdom (who fights at my practice) had a really, really, bad practice night.

Well, for him.

I felt like I had gone and reached manhood all of a sudden.

The knights in my kingdom weren't telling me that I was being unchivalrous, they were telling me that I was handicapping myself in the game in which I chose to play.

So, what I am saying is that your attention to accurate portrayal does you justice, but just stop.

You are getting personal advice from a master martial artist. From what you tell us, you are getting personal advice from several master rated martial artists.

Listen to them, and give it a try. If their advice is not good, you are only out the price of one home made shield, and a particularly vigorous practice.

f

[Sasha_Khan]

Ezarc bey -

I think that adjusting the size of your kalkan to your height is the appropriate response (I've done it myself, being the same height as you), and I for one applaud your efforts at doing a good, solid historical portrayal within the SCA game.

Of course, I may be a bit biased...

Iskander, Çavuş of the 9th Orta
(Currently on campaign with Sultan Suleiman Kanuni in Macaristan, supporting his vassal Zápolya Janos in his war against the Hapsburg sultan, Ferdinand...)

[Zafir al-Th'ib]

Some would argue that cetner-grip rounds are now the dominant shield style in SCA combat, so I wouldn't sweat not being effective. If it's a little small right now, your defense will get BETTER, not worse, if you concentrate and choose to do the work.

Stay your current course. Choose to represent your period. And while you do that, work twice as hard as the next guy to improve your SCA game. In the end, you'll be a better fighter and look great while doing it.

[FrauHirsch]

Some of the 16th c Turkish art shows an oval too.

Check this out:
http://www.polishhussarsupply.com/TatarsTurks.html

This site mentions a convex rectangular shield which copied the ones used by hungarians. Hungarians carrying this type of shield is depicted in the Triumph of Maximillian.

http://www.kultur.gov.tr/EN/Genel/Belge ... AE606EF1F3