Giving Limbs in Chivalry's Name

cristofre fortescu · Post by **cristofre fortescu** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 3:38 am

I have often wondered why some fighters in a tourament choose to give up a limb when they have successfully taken a limb from his/her opponent. The herald always cries "In an act of chivalry, blah blah sacrifices his whatever...". I do not see why after the advantage has been won, you would give it up. Is that not why we are on the field, to win the advantage and overcome the other? To seek glory and honor for ourselves, our lady (or lord), our liege, and do honor to the other combatant by fightlng him well. I have talk to some who almost feel insulted when this happens to them.

I really do not have a big problem with this practice. However, I do have a problem with fighters who aren't consistant with it. It seems that most only do it when they know that they have the other greatly outclassed the other or when there is a chance that he/she may win the tourament and that "being chivalrous" might not then be in his/her best interest at that time.

Should then the practice be if you are going to give a limb to one fighter, you should give it every time to every fighter?

Not per say knocking the practice of giving limbs, just throwing out a thought.

Chris Fortescu

Egfroth · Post by **Egfroth** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:30 am

I think if you're going to give a limb, you should do it *properly*.

Get the chirurgeon out there, with his tools, tourniquet, saw, blood basin, and a bucket to throw the limb in. And a couple of brawny feebleminded assistants to hit you on the head so you don't feel the pain of getting your arm sawn off.

But that's just me . . .

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Egfroth

"I can't help it. I was BORN sneering" - Pooh Bah
see my webpage at www.geocities.com/egfrothos

Vincent_c=={=====- · Post by **Vincent_c=={=====-** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:35 am

I think the entire concept is silly. For one if we are supposed to be portraying tournaments; why on earth would we be killing and maiming one another? That would mean that every combatant whom enters the tournament dies except for the victor. That's so stupid. If that ever really happened then tournaments would wipe out a real kingdoms fighting force. It all goes into the why do we fall down and "if your chivalrous you'll take your own limb" it is so childish and ignorant of what real tournaments were. Now there is the exception of judicial combat but that's not really what we are talking about here.

Now that I've explained how ridiculous it is that these rules so much as exist I will discuss the rules as they are. Prowess on the field is a Chivalric aspect of a person. That is untainted prowess not some plastic wearing sportfighter or a rhinoing tank. So ones prowess will earn them their opponents wound to the arm or other appendage and so your prowess has now brought to you a bit of renown for wounding whomever it is your fighting (especially if it happened to be Sir SuperDuke). However if you then handicap yourself you decrease your capabilities, therefore you do not display your prowess for what it is which works against you as someone who aspires to be knightly and to prove his ability also at the same time it takes away the chance of your opponent being able to prove his skill for he could still kill you using only one arm. All it does is give someone the excuse to say I bested him with both arms and with one, or lets the other guy go on winning where he might have otherwise not had it of been an honest fight. And the onlookers will see and realize this as well.

I do not feel insulted when someone does this to me I really don't care becase like I said we shouldn't have a wounding system at all or atleast not at all like the SCA standard. I myself never do this. Not to be selfish or cowardly but to esure that it is a fight where no one is left guessing who is the better man.

Morgan · Post by **Morgan** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:10 am

I like the game we play, and I'm very much a "play the cards the way they're dealt" kinda guy. I don't give up limbs, and I ask my opponent to not give up theirs if they get mine. If they insist, I don't argue, but I do want them to know that I'd prefer to continue as things have turned out rather than make adjustments.

That being said, if we dealt away with limb fighting and went to a 2 arms/legs or 1 body "counted" blow thing and never ever ever "lost" a limb again, I wouldn't be at all upset.

Connor McEldridge · Post by **Connor McEldridge** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:31 am

I cringe when I hear a herald call out 'an act of chivalry' when someone gives up a limb. This implies that it is unchivalrous NOT to give up a limb. I see giving up a limb an act of Largesse if anything. It is a gift.
I'm also of the line of thinking that if you are going to or not to give up a limb, just be consistant.
I personally don't usually give up limbs. I earned the advantage, why should I give it back?
The only time I do this, usually, is in a tourney like a Pas or something when it's just for show.

Winterfell · Post by **Winterfell** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:21 pm

My preference has always been to keep it a pretty level fight. If I take somone's arm and I am fighting with two weapons, I will remove one weapon, but my arm is still good. If i take a leg I will go down on my knees to be at their level. Partly to be "honourable" and partly because I like to have fun. But that is for strictly one on one fighting, in melee, it is "too bad sucker"

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"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:31 pm

Never do it. All Pas should be counted blows anyway, so you shouldn't have to make the decision.
-V

Parlan · Post by **Parlan** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 1:08 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vitus:
Never do it. All Pas should be counted blows anyway, so you shouldn't have to make the decision.
-V<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vitus,

Quit changing the lightbulb.

-Parlan

How many Westies does it take to change a lightbulb? None. That lightbulb has been working fine for 36 years. There's no need to change it.

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 1:42 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Connor McEldridge:
This implies that it is unchivalrous NOT to give up a limb. <snip>
I personally don't usually give up limbs. I earned the advantage, why should I give it back?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. If I take leg, its on purpose. Every so often I'll take an arm on purpose if the person is just hanging it out there. I'm 5'2". Most other fighters are taller than me. Most other fighters have a longer reach than I have. Many are physically stronger in their off arm than I am with my good arm. Sometimes I've fought guys who are still taller than I am when on their knees (and even so they are still stonger and retain a longer reach).

If I take a limb on an opponent and then give mine up, I put myself at more of a disadvantage than if I hadn't taken the limb at all.

Yet some might think it "unchivalrous" of me not to give my advantage up. Dang it. I earn it. I keep it.

Juliana

Vitus von Atzinger · Post by **Vitus von Atzinger** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 3:12 pm

I can't even REACH the lightbulb.

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 3:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Vitus:
I can't even REACH the lightbulb.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Low Five Vitus :-)

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:36 pm

Imo i don't like em.

But either always do it or never do it, the inconsistancy looks hypocritical.

BTW Vincent, ya need to hold back less, tell us how you really feel about things.

Shamey · Post by **Shamey** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:49 pm

We were doing a bear pit at a past practice and the person who stayed in retained his *injury* caused by the previous person... all the guys were giving up their advantage to fight him so when my time came I gave up my advantage. Everyone else had... I want to be like them, so like a monkey I do what they do *shrug*. Got an earful about it. *Never give up and advantage you earned unless you bloody well know you can beat your opponent without it".

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Leah of Newcastle
Man-at-Arms to Syr Malcolm MacEoghainn

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 5:14 pm

Never. I feel it insulting.

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Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:42 pm

I use to be one of those people. I did it because I wanted to win fairly -I liked the challange. However I have grown to see that it was not only insulting to my opponant, but it also annoyed the other fighters watching the bout.

I know longer give a limb for a limb -if I take it, your mine!

(^_^)

Edward deCalais · Post by **Edward deCalais** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:44 pm

I NEVER give up my Leg. One because I did work hard to get an advantage-but the most important reason is my knee's hurt now when I go down on them!!!! I really prefer to stay upright. As for arms, I usually keep them unless I am fighting a newbie

Ulrich · Post by **Ulrich** » Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:30 pm

I sometimes do it in practice for the sake of practice. I'd do it in a non counted blows Pas (I know...I know..but they do exist)because thats all about the show.

In a tournament? not as long as I came by it honestly. i.e. my opponent takes a shot that I thought was too light or flat, but takes it even after I protest, then I'll match them...but its an act Largess not an act of chivalry. If they've given me a gift, I'll give them one. if I've earned an advantage, I'll keep it.

in the end, give it if you want, (or don't) give what you want, its up to you, its your gift (largess) make it what you want and as much as you want.

Ulrich

Alexander · Post by **Alexander** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 7:58 am

Servus!

I am a bastard sword fighter - any advantage I have gained is hard won (at this point in my fighting career) and that means I'm not going to give an arm or leg away too quickly. My knight teaches "enjoy one advantage - when another comes along, give an advantage away." Good advice, but I rarely get both an arm AND a leg in a bout!

I am also against the herald croaking on about "...Point of Chivalry for Duke Master Sir Twiddle!" and then the gallery applauding in a ape-like fashion. Nothing more degrading - I lose an arm like a idiot and THEN my opponent adds insult to injury by saying that he can defeat me with only one arm! I love this sport...

What slays me is the fact that the folks that give arms and legs do so by striking the limb to be given. So, in the name of Honor and Chivalry, it's OK to cripple yourself?

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Pax Vobiscum,

Herr Alexander

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Mon Feb 25, 2002 10:37 am

It is a strange concept to give a limb. If this were a true medieval tourney with blunted steel it would be a point system and not a limb system. If your arm were broken you would most likely yield. On the field in a battle wounded knights and men of worth would surrender to the enemy. It is an honor thing for our combat sport.

Flonzy

Steve S. · Post by **Steve S.** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 7:43 am

This subject comes up from time to time; I still think I heard it best from someone who said:

"If you are going to give up limbs you better do it for every fighter you go up against - otherwise you are insulting the ones you do it for"

Basically, if you give up a limb for some fighters but not for others, you are sending the message that you feel you can win the bought with a handicap for one set of fighters but not with another.

Steve

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Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!

hjalmr · Post by **hjalmr** » Tue Feb 26, 2002 11:49 am

Alexander wrote:
<<<< What slays me is the fact that the folks that give arms and legs do so by striking the limb to be given. So, in the name of Honor and Chivalry, it's OK to cripple yourself? >>>

This is funny ass hell. I once witnessed a fighter take his leg, then his arm in a â€œretained woundsâ€