The Armour Archive

I've been thinking about Will McLean's experiments with alternative weapons for mock combat. Specifically, he mentions rattan swords shaved to 1" wide, oval cross section. These are covered in cloth, then leather. Then, these are spray-painted ("silvered") for a more realistic-looking sword. Or, at least one looking more like the tournament swords made for the tournament held in Windsor in 1278.

Other weapons could be made, too, using narrowed cross-sections and more period materials.

To be more safe, I've thought that eyeslots should be narrower; perhaps 3/4" (to give the 1/4" safety margin currently present in SCA regs).

I would think that these two proposals would satisfy the marshallate enough to allow limited tournaments that were more geared towards historical re-creation.

This could give us a third category of our martial activities: "heavy", "light" and "historical".

It would also give us a venue for raising authenticity standards and narrowing the focus of a given tournament without totally alienating those who do not wish to participate. There could be "heavy" fighting going on simultaneously for those whose rigs wouldn't meet standards, much like fencing that coincides with times that heavy fighting is going on.

I don't think that "historical" would ever replace "heavy", but it would allow those of us that desire a more realistic experience to get it within the bounds of the SCA.

Thoughts?

Sounds like a GREAT idea to me....Otto

I agree, Trevor, this sounds like a great idea! It would be, in effect, another type of SCA combat. Very much like we currently have rapier and "heavy" combat, this could be a new grade of "heavy" combat, with rules and armour requirements specific to it.

Steve

------------------
Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!

Will's a good friend of mine, and perhaps the preeminant scholar working on tournament recreation today. I have worked with his swords several times; I even fought in a tournament in which those swords were the only ones allowed.

Unfortunately, you can't hit very hard with them. They're too light, and they don't transmit force like a real sword would. So all that you're doing is play-acting. The only strength the SCA has when compared with other LH groups is the intensity and skill level we have in our fighting. Remove that and we have no real raison d'etre.

Moreover, these light weapons don't *move* like real swords. Granted, some SCA weapons are too heavy when compared with real weapons, but why is it better to make "toothpicks"? Neither moves like a real weapon, and, as a result, we're not really learning anything with either kind of weapon.

There are already plenty of LH groups that just stand around looking accurate or pretend to fight; please, let's not become one of them. Knighthood isn't about standing around looking pretty, it's about prowess, and you can't prove prowess playing tag with toothpics.

I think a better proposal is simply to ask people to make SCA weapons that look and move more like real weapons. For example, the rubber-headed poll axes that I developed look a lot like real poll axes, and they're close enough in weight (really! Check the lighter-end ones in the Wallace Collection catalog!) to move a lot like the real thing. And making longswords with cast aluminum (because the lighter weight makes the balance more accurate) crosses and pommels creates the same effect. I've held real longswords, and I've held reproductions that the experts tell me are identical to the real thing, and even though the weight on our swords is a bit lighter, they *handle* almost exactly the same because we can't balance them the same way a steel sword is balanced. And because rattan doesn't transmit force as well as real weapons do, we can use realistic levels of force without hurting one another.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

I'd love to see that added to combat.

You'd have to have real strick marshalls though, or it'd be a joke real fast.

Why can't we poll all the members of all the existing Tourney Companies and come up with some type of Universal Charter? It's been brought up a few times already. Brennus pushed for this over and over.

I have always supported-
Turnshoes, "fighting" medieval shoes or modern shoes covered with sabatons.
Greaves or suitable riding boots- no cycle, engineer or combat boots.
No >visible< plastic or aluminum armour.
Steel gauntlets only.
I would prefer no grilles. I accept them as historically legit, they just scream SCA. (Sorry Rhys, I feel we have to stand FAR apart from SCA norms).
No unpainted shields.
No two-sword in any style Tourney or Feat.

As far as these painted leather swords- have you ever tried to get silver spray paint out of your fighting garments? I made one, and it friggin' ruined William's Surcoat.

I think rules can vary according to the Feat, but in general I support both Galleron and Rhys' revised rules.

Thoughts?
-V

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vitus:
I would prefer no grilles. I accept them as historically legit, they just scream SCA. (Sorry Rhys, I feel we have to stand FAR apart from SCA norms).</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The more I study the more frequently I find tournament combat (on foot as we do it) being done without visors. Bar grills simply represent open-faced helmets. Permit them, but make any good shot to the grill an automatic loss. By allowing them you actually create an opportunity to make the simulation more accurate.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

I totally agree that men-at-arms fought without visors- alot. I am only saying that as far as bringing us up to Living History standards- the grilles do more to identify us as mainstream SCA then the open-faced rule you describe helps us to escape it.
I love the regular old SCA and everything that comes with it. Grilles are around all the time and I don't mind- I use one all the time.
For the Pas, and for these more accurate Feats we are planning, I would really like to see them >eventually< phased out. I don't care about the competitive aspect of it as far as this issue is concerned (I know that sounds insane). Rhys, you never wear a grille at the Pas so why are you worried? I don't get it. The whole SCA knows we are here- do you think even fewer people would show up if there was a grille ban? That's true- it would keep some people away.
I see that the new rules reward those who choose to leave the grilles behind...I just >wish< that there were more sugarloafs, great helms and real sallets showing up. All I am saying is that I would really prefer to see them phased out- for what we are trying to do. The way it looks from the outside is very important, which is why people are obsessed with getting rid of duct tape. As long as we keep moving forward every year- I'm happy!!
-Vee

I prefer the look of a visored helmet. Yeah, I know why grilled helmets were made and what they represent. I just don't like the look of them, frankly.

Besides, if you allow bar grilles, then the folks who go to the trouble of wearing the visored helmets are at a competitive disadvantage. Most folks who would other wise wear visored helms don't now because they can't remain competitive against those who wear bar grilles.

I have had the pleasure of fighting in a no-bar-face tournament, and the effect was AWESOME. To see your fully armored opponent bouncing along through your tiny occularia is a sight to behold! A bit of "the Blind Beating the Blind", perhaps, but after the second day, I got used to the effect.

As to the weight issue of swords-it's true, they're a bit on the light side. Perhaps they could be made larger or covered with thicker leather to weight them a bit more. Any suggestions?



[This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 03-10-2002).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vitus:
<B>I totally agree that men-at-arms fought without visors- alot. I am only saying that as far as bringing us up to Living History standards- the grilles do more to identify us as mainstream SCA then the open-faced rule you describe helps us to escape it.
I love the regular old SCA and everything that comes with it. Grilles are around all the time and I don't mind- I use one all the time.
For the Pas, and for these more accurate Feats we are planning, I would really like to see them >eventually< phased out. I don't care about the competitive aspect of it as far as this issue is concerned (I know that sounds insane). Rhys, you never wear a grille at the Pas so why are you worried? I don't get it. The whole SCA knows we are here- do you think even fewer people would show up if there was a grille ban? That's true- it would keep some people away.
I see that the new rules reward those who choose to leave the grilles behind...I just >wish< that there were more sugarloafs, great helms and real sallets showing up. All I am saying is that I would really prefer to see them phased out- for what we are trying to do. The way it looks from the outside is very important, which is why people are obsessed with getting rid of duct tape. As long as we keep moving forward every year- I'm happy!!
-Vee</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hello my friend,

I hear what you're saying, I really do, but I think there's a danger that in trying to move toward historical authenticity we might avoid doing some things that are accurate just to prove we're not SCAdians, and that's just as wrong. If open-faced helmets are accurate, and we both know they are, then we should allow people to use them.

And no, I almost never fight in a grill, but it's not about *me* (contrary to what everyone on here seem to think, I'm not so caught up in myself that I think something's right just because I do it), it's about accuracy.

It's true that other living history organizations don't use grills, and I agree that that marks us, but the other groups don't fight the way we do, either, and that's our greatest strength. We must encourage the complete range of *normal* fighting (just because one weirdo did something once doesn't justify it, but this is a far more common idea) because only by so doing can we truly learn what medieval fighting was like.

As I said, the important thing is to make those who wear grills pay the medieval price for doing so, and our counted-blow system allows for just that. By making a blow to the face an automatic loss (assuming it's of realistic force; the chronicles are full of stories of men fighting on, blissfully unaware of a pretty awful face wound, and I don't want this to become a cheap and easy way for those who aren't skilled enough to hit very hard to overcome their weakness and get wins they don't deserve), we create a real medieval dynamic: A solid grill and you aren't as liable to get hurt, but can't see as well, or a grill and you have better vision but stand a much better chance of losing (painfully).

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Sir Rhys-am I hearing you correctly?

You don't want to give up grills, and you don't like the lighter swords.

What's the difference from standard SCA fighting, then, other that you want better-looking weapons as mentioned above? What would be the point of trying to get a different rules system? [img]http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/confused.gif[/img]

Grills look like crap. They look like any other SCA fighter-so why not get away from them when other visors work almost as well and look a hell of a lot more authentic?

The difference between the SCA and other historical groups is that the SCA is full of compromises. We not only sacrifice authenticity for safety's sake, but we also sacrifice it for convenience, cost, comfort and laziness's sake. I'm tired of it.

I'm this close to getting my rig entirely authentic save for the cup. I want to give others the incentive to go to all the trouble of getting an authentic looking rig so they can participate in soemthing really cool without getting gacked by some goob in a bar grill and carpet armor.

[This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 03-10-2002).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vitus:
<B>I have always supported-
Turnshoes, "fighting" medieval shoes or modern shoes covered with sabatons.
Greaves or suitable riding boots- no cycle, engineer or combat boots.
No >visible< plastic or aluminum armour.
Steel gauntlets only.
I would prefer no grilles. I accept them as historically legit, they just scream SCA. (Sorry Rhys, I feel we have to stand FAR apart from SCA norms).
No unpainted shields.
No two-sword in any style Tourney or Feat.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd support the above, but with a requirement for lower leg armor. (ever seen a knight with 3/4 legs before 1550?)
I'd also suggest requiring no visible skin except at the wrist and neck. (encourages arming coats)

It may be inappropriate, but I'd also consider limiting the time period-at least for certain tournaments. It is so difficult to get the right "feel" with Vikings fighting Landsknechts.

Yes, get rid of the bargrills, but keep the ocularia the same as in SCA so I would not need another hat.

------------------

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">"Heads up, by God! Those are bullets - not turds!" Colonel Lepic</font>

MAybe we could all get together at Gulf Wars and talk about this?

Look fot the big St Olaf Banner

Black, red and white, two white axes crosses on the black.

Or maybe after the Pas.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Trevor:
<B>Sir Rhys-am I hearing you correctly?

You don't want to give up grills, and you don't like the lighter swords.

What's the difference from standard SCA fighting, then, other that you want better-looking weapons as mentioned above? What would be the point of trying to get a different rules system? </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, light swords like the one's Will made *aren't* more authentic, they're *inauthentic*; they're just as bad as SCA swords that are huge, heavy monstrosities. I'm arguing for weapons that move like the real thing, which requires a weapon somewhere in the middle.

Second, grills are documentable, but that's not why I argue for them. I argue for them in order to allow people to fight in an authentic manner, i.e., open faced.

I think your mistake is in thinking that everything done in the SCA is, by definition, wrong. That's not a horrible premise, but it's not quite valid. Yes, people often fought with visors, but they just as often fought without them, and bar grills simply simulate that.

Mind you, I'm not suggesting that people cut a big hole in the front of a Pembridge helm and weld bars in place: I'm talking about helms that were actually worn without a visor (e.g., a bascinet).

And I don't understand your question about "the difference between standard SCA fighting". I have recommended *numerous* changes to SCA fighting to make it more accurate and more realistic. I just don't want to get rid of the parts that already *are* accurate and historical just because the SCA does them, which seems to be what you're suggesting.

Case in point: I argue for allowing grills, but I also argue for using a counted-blow system of combat and for making a strike to a grill an automatic loss. That's *exactly* what medieval fighting was like! You battered someone into submission, or else you landed a blow to an unarmored spot and took them out.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Well here is my bit. I'd love to do this as authentic as possable. Open faced helms happened. So they need to be allowed if you want authenticism. You don't like the standard grills, that's fine. Do mesh, do something that makes it look different. But not letting someone fight in an totally legitamate open face Basinet is unauthentic.

Having another distinction in the Sca of "Historical" would over joy me to no end. I don't mind playing the Sca game as it is but I'd love that.

The big problem is that the TC community is still not in proper contact with each other. There are tons of people who come to the Pennsic Pas who have never posted on the TC list even once. If we can't find these guys, how can we vote on anything? Another point is that the TC list has become the fectbuch-obsessed-I-want-to-open-a western-martial-arts-school list. There is nothing wrong with the fectbuchs or wanting to teach, but I thought the TC list was about the creation of more accurate tournaments. The original list has lost it's way.
Rhys makes a solid arguement, but I am worried about one thing. One or two guys who require a seriously stiff face thrust could reverse the course. The guy who feels like he can't hit somebody hard enough with a face thrust will think "What's the advantage to wearing a visor? The calibration for face thrusts is so high among certain guys who are wearing grilles that I might as well go back to wearing mine as well." Plus face thrusts are so rare in % relation to edgeblows that sometimes you are never hit with one- especially in the Pas where half the people still assume that the F.T. is a purely unfriendly "Outrance" technique. If everyone had visors, then everyone would be immune to face thrusts anyway, and we would all be equally deprived of air and vison.
There are good arguements for and against. I also see Trevor's point about greaves in the 14th and 15th centuries.
Rhys, I think the rules that you have developed create SUCH a much more medieval dynamic, but I can't help but feel that the removal of grilles (and the subsequent removal of the F.T. as a viable technique) is a small price to pay for removing one of the main visual distractions that keep reminding me that I am at a regular SCA event.
Taking all the other ideas that you have put forward into account, if I had my way I would put the F.T. on the chopping block to get a more beautiful and convincing setting.
-Vitus

Vitus: Just wondering - are you just opposed to the bargrill, or do you dislike FT in general? If the latter, why? Is it just in Pas or in the SCA in general?

I'm just curious, as FT is probably my best technique at this point...

------------------
Yehuda ben Moshe
mka Juliean Galak
http://gerfalcon.tzo.com/medieval/armor/

I adore face thrusting. I am just trying to figure out a way to justify a ban on grilles (in the Pas culture only).
-Vee

Ok everyone here comes a first. I total Agree with what Syr Rhys is saying. You heard me. In a group like the SCA, or a group like the one I am in we want to simulate medieval combat. LH groups do not fight at 100%. I do like the idea of looking better, on the swords and the armor. If you can make the rattan look better and hit as good I will be there to make mine look better. As far as the bar grills go, not everyone play in a close helm era. I myself have an OOP helm, I admit it, but if I get a period helm it is still open face because I am a Landsknecht of the 1540s. They wore burgonets, and no all have a baffle. Syr Rhys suggested what my group does, a hit to the bar grill is a loss.

I have one question Trevor since you hate the look of the bar grill. Do you wear a period outfit? Boots and cloths? And if so are your boots period, or are the biker boots or renny rubber sole boots? Are your clothes made of a period material velvet cotton or more likely wool? Or do you have a 65% polyester t tunic and breaches with a polyester tabard? My cloths are all period now, and yes I where an armoring doublet, tights, and trunk hose on the field. But I do have renny boots (hope to replace these soon). I also have OOP armor for the most part, but that will eventually change.

I think we all are a little guilty of being OOP in one way are another though I would love to see the fighting rules of the SCA head towards some more realism with the armor.


Flonzy

The bar grill thing's been hashed to death, and I doubt many folks opinions about them are going to change soon. It's a dead horse.

Why not use King Renee's tournament rules? You could use the entire rule set, the exact weapons and armour he describes, and acually look period and be safe. Is there anyone here who'd like to fight in a foot melee based exactly on his rules?

Gaston de Clermont

I would like to pipe up for just a second as an early period fighter striving for authenticity in the SCA. I play a viking. I am in the process of creating as period a kit and saftey allows. I'm going to wear a plastic body suit under my Maille because I'm a skinny guy and can't afford the broken ribs. I will only fight with 10th century Norse weapons at any event. Sword center grip round, dane axe,spear, and saex. To me the weapons are what kill the illusion everytime. I HATE unpadded pole-weapons. It's not hard to make a period looking glaive,bill, or Halberd. I recently got a chance to play with a Neopreen Swiss Pole weapon and man was it fun! It looked great too. I would suggest to all here that we take it one step at a time. IMHO the biggest killer is the 7' sticks and the q-tip spears you see on the field. We can do so much better and it's so simple.

Ulfbjorn

The history minded viking.

I think what Trevor is looking for are "tournament" swords. That is, batons that look like medieval batons as used in medieval tournaments.

The SCA is a loooong way from any kind of steel combat. But we could have combat with medieval tournament batons fairly easily.

Steve

------------------
Forth Armoury
The Riveted Maille Website!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by flonzy:
<B>
I have one question Trevor since you hate the look of the bar grill. Do you wear a period outfit? Boots and cloths? And if so are your boots period, or are the biker boots or renny rubber sole boots? Are your clothes made of a period material velvet cotton or more likely wool? Or do you have a 65% polyester t tunic and breaches with a polyester tabard? Flonzy</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's a pic of my rig when it was new five years ago:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/5913/

My new rig (currently in pieces in my shop) will be brushed stainless (hate the chrome look) and will be thus (listed from underwear out):

1) "sliders" shorts and cup
2) linen braies
3) linen hose with blankets sewn in the knees for padding
4) turnshoes with sabatons
5) pourpoint with kydex back plate and spaulders. Legs attach to this
6) "under clothes" elbows and vambraces
7) full articulated legs with case greaves, hand made hinges, buckles and strap ends
wool and canvas jupon
9) stainless globose with stop rib
10) Brass plaque belt by Anshelm
11) stainless bascinet/aventail with padded suspension liner and exchange visor
12) stainless gauntlets

I am Not a t-tunic type of guy.

As to your rig: I have to say that a Landsknecht would not be fighting in a tournament, anyway. German nobles did-and they wore sallets, armets and close-helmets in tourney.




[This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 03-12-2002).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SyrRhys:
<B>
And I don't understand your question about "the difference between standard SCA fighting". I have recommended *numerous* changes to SCA fighting to make it more accurate and more realistic. I just don't want to get rid of the parts that already *are* accurate and historical just because the SCA does them, which seems to be what you're suggesting.

Case in point: I argue for allowing grills, but I also argue for using a counted-blow system of combat and for making a strike to a grill an automatic loss. That's *exactly* what medieval fighting was like! You battered someone into submission, or else you landed a blow to an unarmored spot and took them out.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MY suggestion has to do with creating an alternative to our heavy fighting. Therefore, if we are going to do an entirely new and different game, why not make it far different than standard SCA fighting? Otherwise, what would be the point of going to the trouble in the first place?

From your POV, it seems you want the fight to be more period. That's great. But other than counted blows, you offer no significant change from what we have right now.

I don't think that all SCA type of fighting is wrong, and I like it for the most part (otherwise, I wouldn't still be fighting after 17 years).

What I don't like about SCA combat is:
1) limb loss
2) armor standards that encourage/allow inauthentic rigs
3) duct-taped clubs
4) unnecessary compromises to an authentic look

What I'm looking for can be summed up in one sentence:

I want to experience the same thing that a medieval knight experienced.

I want to look out my tiny little eyeslots and see another medieval knight standing there, ready to duke it out. The spectators standing on the side lines of the bannered list will gape at the medieval spectacle that plays out before them. Courteous pleasantries will be exchanged with my opponent, belying the furious onslaught about to be pressed by two competitors hungry for reknown.

I do NOT want to go to all this trouble just to fight in another sea of ductape and football helmets. That doesn't get it for me.

Bargrills are an unnecessary compromise to an otherwise authentic helmet. Other visors are available and work reasonably well. They look better, and with rules forbidding bargrills will allow competitive fighting beween people who have the same competitive disadvantage.

As to the sword weight thing: you have a valid point. Wouldn't it be just as effective to get larger rattan, then shave it down so it is the same weight as a standard SCA sword? Then, it could be covered in leather/parchment/whatever to give it a more authentic look that duct tape.





[This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 03-12-2002).]

Hey Gaston what are King Renee's tournament rules? If you're going to be at practice tommarrow we should talk about it. Maybe we can get something going. I was also hoping to get together with you in the hopes of getting help on more authentic armour. Mine is evil sport armour right now.

As to your rig: I have to say that a Landsknecht would not be fighting in a tournament, anyway. German nobles did-and they wore sallets, armets and close-helmets in tourney.

You have the right oh it there. I am playing a German noble and not really Landsknecht men-at-arms. I would love to have a Maximilian or the black and white German style harness but that stuff is so costly. I am fairly new to the hobby myself, and I put an all-metal harness together for under 650$. An armet would be period for me but would cost almost as much as my whole harness did. I will slowly start getting pieces to get a historic harness together, but I have not been in the hobby 17 years yet so I am not there.

I am all for tournament and war rules that make combat more realistic.

Your stuff looked great Trevor.


Flonzy
Death to crappy garb!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Trevor:
<B> From your POV, it seems you want the fight to be more period. That's great. But other than counted blows, you offer no significant change from what we have right now.

I don't think that all</B> SCA type of fighting is wrong, and I like it for the most part (otherwise, I wouldn't still be fighting after 17 years).

What I [b]don't like about SCA combat is:
1) limb loss
2) armor standards that encourage/allow inauthentic rigs
3) duct-taped clubs
4) unnecessary compromises to an authentic look

What I'm looking for can be summed up in one sentence:

I want to experience the same thing that a medieval knight experienced.

I want to look out my tiny little eyeslots and see another medieval knight standing there, ready to duke it out. The spectators standing on the side lines of the bannered list will gape at the medieval spectacle that plays out before them. Courteous pleasantries will be exchanged with my opponent, belying the furious onslaught about to be pressed by two competitors hungry for reknown.

I do NOT want to go to all this trouble just to fight in another sea of ductape and football helmets. That doesn't get it for me.

Bargrills are an unnecessary compromise to an otherwise authentic helmet. Other visors are available and work reasonably well. They look better, and with rules forbidding bargrills will allow competitive fighting beween people who have the same competitive disadvantage.

As to the sword weight thing: you have a valid point. Wouldn't it be just as effective to get larger rattan, then shave it down so it is the same weight as a standard SCA sword? Then, it could be covered in leather/parchment/whatever to give it a more authentic look that duct tape.
[This message has been edited by Trevor (edited 03-12-2002).][/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think you understand the extent to which our counted-blow system changes SCA fighting. It does *everything* you asked for, and creates exactly what you said: An experience more like what a medieval knight felt. How can you say I haven't offered any changes other than counted blows?

But you are mistaken in your belief that in order to do that you must look out through a narrow eyeslot, that's been my whole point. *Many* knights chose to forgo their visors, even in war, in order to get better vision.If we ignore that fact, we're *not* simulating the entire range of knightly combat, ergo your way *isn't* as accurate.

And, by the way, shaving rattan down to make it look more like a real sword is *exactly* what I suggested. Covering it with leather hasn't been real successful (we've tried) for two reasons: First, the leather is *very* expensive, and it doesn't last very long, so you have to pay a lot of money quite frequently. Second, it muffles the "clank" of the rattan, which makes it harder for your opponent to know he's been struck a good blow.

------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"

Use rawhide instead of leather. Put it on wet, make sure your stitches are not on the striking surfaces. When it dries it shrinks so will be very hard.

Your swords will last ten times longer, hit a bit harder (not excessively, unless you are using very thick rattan) and will sound much better then ductape covered rattan.

Rawhide wrapped swords are legal in An Tir, dont know about elsewhere.

Cedric

"But you are mistaken in your belief that in order to do that you must look out through a narrow eyeslot, that's been my whole point. *Many* knights chose to forgo their visors, even in war, in order to get better vision.If we ignore that fact, we're *not* simulating the entire range of knightly combat, ergo your way *isn't* as accurate."

SyrRhys, he's talking about a new set of combat rules for a new style of SCA combat. Yes, everyone knows that in period fighters often fought without face protection. Everyone knows that bar grills are our acceptable equivalent. But not for Trevor's proposal. In Trevor's proposal, we would only wear thing that look as correct as possible. That means no open faced helms (pretend or otherwise). It's a sub-set of historical combat.

I'm with ya, Trevor - no bar grills for this hypothetical new sub-class of SCA combat.

Steve

Hell, I'm with you, Trevor. Morevoer, I'm only a couple of hours away from you. If you need an extra body for experimentation in this sort of thing, I'm your man. I've got two decently authentic-looking harnesses, and a pile of components that could conceivable be cobbled together into more...

For 12th C. tourneys, an open face helmet might be justified. But they were basically mounted rough-housing, not a "pas" proper. In the 13th C. a barrel helm would be far more suitable. In the 14th C. an open-faced bascinet would have been worn under a great helm, or would have had a visor. For the 15th C., grand bascinets, armets and salets. If anyone has documentation of 14th - 15th C. jousting, crest-bashing or barrier combats with an open-faced helmet, I'd like to hear it. I don't recall any pictures in any of the books I've looked at.
I don't think Vikings, Romans or Landsknights are appropriate tourney portrayals either.

Well, like I said above, I think the most important thing we can do is find out who still considers themselves part of the TC "movement", and then have a big round table and decide what it is that we want.
I saw the TCs as being pretty-much confined to the 14th and 15th centuries (with a few guys in Maximillian armour here and there), and I didn't think what we were trying to do should have interfered with other aspects of SCA life- we were a subculture. I never wanted to see counted blows in a Crown Tourney or in any "war" scenario.
The problem is that some guys see the Tournament Company "vision" as the answer to all of the SCA's problems. I don't even think we should worry about that! I think regular SCA formats are very important, and we should all play at every level. Do what you want and have FUN.
But for those people who occasionally want an even playing field among the more historically-minded, and a more magical high medieval setting- where more people are wearing full plate, peering through visors and where everyone attempts to speak and carry themselves like a noble- I think we are very close to achieving amazing things.
We are going to have to eventually have a tourney at a large SCA "war" where we go as far as we can, where the only thing that will remind you that you at an SCA event will be the mock weapons. We need Heralds who DRESS LIKE HERALDS. We need more music. We need extras in costume with rehearsed dialogues.
I personally think that a large High Medieval tournament without grilles would be totally BAD ASS.
As an aside, I don't think that the fact that early period enthusiasts should even be concerned about the possible ban on grilles- I would never show up at an Hardcore Viking fighting event dressed in an embroidered Hooplande and wearing garters on my greaves!
The TC thing should not be aiming to reform or take over the SCA, I just think that we should do what we CAN do and do it well- which is take tighter control of the tournaments we have within the context of the Society. All we are doing is offering the occasional step into something closer to Living History displays. Trying to change the SCA is a waste of energy- and I like it the way it is anyway.
-V

counted blows with light weight, blunted steel swords,would be music to my ears. Combatants would have to wear steel armour of course,should be perfectly safe! I would suggest no thrusting allowed.....Otto

And there is a group that does the Silverleaf Renn. Faire in Michigan that does just that. One of their guys posts here from time to time, although I don't remember his name.