The Armour Archive

how often do you actually use thrusting tips?
on single hand swords or great swords. ive had one as a matter of principle for most of my sca life.
thats just the way it was always done.
but i find tha t i rarely if ever actually use it.
i will be making a hand and a half sword in a few days and im thinking about just leaving it off.
what are your thoughts on this?
with a longer sword would i likely use one more often or should i just give up the ghost?

I stabify guys all the time. Probably 5% percent of my shots are thrusts.
Probably 25% of my kills are.

Depends on the weapon.

For Polearm, most of my attacks are thrusts (~60%). I find it easier to keep my weapon in line, so recoery is faster.

For sword and board, I use my thrusting tip much less, probably ~ 10% of my shots. Most times I use it to drive my opponent back (nothing says keep away like a thrusting tip to the face). I also have some luck with lunges, when my opponent only thinks I'm out of range.

Robert The Stout.

I used a thrusty for about ten years.

When I got to Drachenwald, I stopped putting them on. The force level here is so much higher than it was in 90's meridies, they died in a couple of weeks. Now I have learned a new way to make them, and I put them back on. I have gotten a month out of this last set, and they seem to be fine.

The thing I have noticed about thrusties is that you can force a change in behavior upon your opponents by using them.

By just having them on your sticks, your opponent has to worry about the thrust, and guard against it. It is almost as if you never actually have to use them, just point them, and go on with your game as if you didn't have them.

They are also great for forcing your opponent (especially a legged one) to focus on one thing while you are doing another.

So, yeah, have a thrusty.

f

I rarely use it on my one handed weapons. But then, I rarely fight with a shield anyway.

I have them on everything else. If you incorporate thrusting into your technique it becomes another tool in your toolbox.

This is a good thing.

If you use it to the exclusion of almost all else and don't know what to do when you can't thrust you become a one trick pony.

This is a bad thing.

I've never had a thrusty on a single handed sword other than the random occasions when I might have borrowed one for whatever reason. Thrusting is easy and every time I did use a sword that had one on it I stabbed someone with it just because I could. I don't use them on my own swords though.

On my bastard sword (48") I do have one and use it often in battle. For the 2 handers I do suggest it. They are quite useful.

i am pretty adequate with my thrusting tip
and i have adjusted my style so i am not relying on it as much
it is more integrated into what i do
with my hand and a half work i dont use my thrusting as effectively for attacks, but i do use it to control range
do you think it would be a useful thing for that?

robstout wrote: (nothing says keep away like a thrusting tip to the face).

Doesnt that pretty much kill in the SCA? I thought force wasn't required?

I honestly don't know the rule. I heard it was touch kill to the face, or something like that.

JvR wrote:

robstout wrote: (nothing says keep away like a thrusting tip to the face).

Doesnt that pretty much kill in the SCA? I thought force wasn't required?

I honestly don't know the rule. I heard it was touch kill to the face, or something like that.

Move my head, but don't knock my jaw. They change the wording of the rule every few years, but they pretty much want that.

So, a bare touch isn't a kill. A bare touch that moves the head, even just a little, (provided there is actually square contact) is.

f

JvR wrote:

robstout wrote: (nothing says keep away like a thrusting tip to the face).

Doesnt that pretty much kill in the SCA? I thought force wasn't required?

I honestly don't know the rule. I heard it was touch kill to the face, or something like that.

that MAY be the case but just try getting people to follow that rule.
9 times out of ten i would get people calling it tippy.

And if they're dead, they stay the hell away...

JvR wrote:

robstout wrote: (nothing says keep away like a thrusting tip to the face).

Doesnt that pretty much kill in the SCA? I thought force wasn't required?

I honestly don't know the rule. I heard it was touch kill to the face, or something like that.

In the Middle, you MUST use face and body thrusts in your authorizations (including primary). Not being able to use proper calibration is cause to fail in ANY athorization. After that, it is up to you.

I fight sword and spear more often in tournaments than anything else (polearm being a close second). With sword and spear, fully 30% of my kills are thrusts. polearm, perhaps 10%.

Melee I either fight spear (thrust kills 100% ) or polearm (perhaps 15%).

YMMV

Don't have one.

If you don't use it, why have it?

I will probably put one on the sabre I have yet to build. Probably be mainly for war.

Hrolfr wrote:
Melee I either fight spear (thrust kills 100% ) or polearm (perhaps 15%).

YMMV

TIPPY!

I have thrusties on my single handed swords but probably only use them 10-15%.

I do use them for feints and I will thrust the top corner of a person's shield to throw it off balance.

I don't rely on it, but I like having it if I need it.

As far as force goes I would appreciate it if my opponent pushes my head back. Little taps to the grill suck.

Uric

freiman the minstrel wrote:So, a bare touch isn't a kill. A bare touch that moves the head, even just a little, (provided there is actually square contact) is.

The rule is "directed touch". And face shots are in general to be taken "lighter" than else where.

Which the SEM (or perhaps previous one) has clarified to mean "AT LEAST" A bare touch - oriented properly (i.e, not grazes or whatever). As you say, "square contact", but that wording is not (in my knowledge) in the rules or in a clarification.

Some kingdoms require more force than others. I pretty much just blast guys with a single handed broadsword thrust, but stronger folks pull them somewhat. With a spear I am a little more careful.

One complicating factor is that "Estrella" Kingdoms allow thrusts to the whole head, while generally "Pennsic" Kingdoms do not. Generally, places where a "high" or "side" (of helmet) thrust counts thrust significantly harder than those where this is not the case.

Re: original post, I don't use it that often; I have relied on it more in the past.

Ogedei wrote:Don't have one.

If you don't use it, why have it?

I will probably put one on the sabre I have yet to build. Probably be mainly for war.

Hrolfr wrote:
Melee I either fight spear (thrust kills 100% ) or polearm (perhaps 15%).

YMMV

TIPPY!

Don't have a thrustie or a spear?

As I stated further up, I fight sword and spear in tournies, so thrusties are good.

Now just gotta make boar spear like HG Tarrach. Now THAT is a wicked weapon

It can be damned hard to tell the difference between a thrust that misses your face by an inch to one that "touches" but doesn't move your head. I live in a touch kill kingdom but, I like it when my head gets moved just a little.

As to the OP, I have thrusties but don't use them too much. It's more to add to the wariness of my opponent and make them honor the threat. If they disregard it, I will use it.

Heath B fraychef wrote:how often do you actually use thrusting tips?
on single hand swords or great swords.

For a crossover rapier guy...not enough.
I was told at last practice that I should be thrusting more.

When I had thrusting tips on my swords, I usually just used them as a feint thrust in prep to setup another shot. If the thrust wasn't blocked...fine...I got the kill. But, I was fully expecting them to block it and open themselves up to something different...

polearm 90% =]

I do not use thrusting tips. Kills using them were far easier than with the edge, and the reliance on my thrusting quickly showed itself to be a detriment to the development of my game.

I'm going to spend 12 months fighting 24" round, no thrusting tip, shorter sword, simply to work on aspects of my game (movement, defense, edgework) that I feel need it. Goodbye, thrusting tip and large heater.

The above is only true when using sword-and-shield, of course. When I fight poll, approximately 60% of my kills are with the point.

Currently I am not using them in tournament as I gave mine up to HRM Patrick at Queen's Champion as my gift for the reign. However I *may* use one again once the reign is over.

I use a "shorter" sword than most (33.5") and like the balance I get without one. When I do use one though, I probably throw 1 with intent out of 100 blows. The rest are feints.


Will have to see how I feel in a month.

Good topic, and something that I have been thinking about.

I do often feel like it is a 'cheap win' when I end a fight with a thrust...first because a lot of the guys I know play touch-kill, and second because it is nowhere near as *satisfying* as flat-snapping the crap out of the side of the other guy's helm.

On the other hand, I have won quite a few matches with thrusts...and who knows if I would have been able to close the deal in those fights without?

I have some very effective thrust-feint techniques, and I also like to drive the tip into a legged man's shield to force it down and chain that into a flat snap.

I'm having a think about fighting Sapphire Joust without a thrusting tip, and seeing how I fare.

All of the above applies just to sword and shield, of course. When fighting greatsword I make extensive use of the thrusting tip, with shortened blows leading to thrusts, winding, twitching, and of course feints. It's integral to my style and I wouldn't fight greatsword without it (unless of course I had to)

My use of thrusts seems to be a pendulum swing. I will go from minimal use to focusing mostly on thrusts. I have to make an effort to remain conscious of both or I lose my awareness of one or the other and start over focusing. I usually fight two sword though.

I have noticed that I generally have to really crank up body thrusts for them to be taken, especially on people with large plates to disperse the impact. The new reduced requirements for thrusting tips 3/4 inch has helped this somewhat. These hard thrusts are brutal on my carpel tunnel prone wrists. I've walked off the field after a long day with bruises on my thumb and index fingers where they join the hand. A lot of this comes from me stabbing around shields to the body.

All the time. Bastard sword with a thrusty on the end of the blade for the majority of use and a thrusty on the pommel for when we get in close. Of course I have them on either end of my pollaxe. When I fight two sword I have one on both swords and use them all the time, even if its just to make my opponent do something I want.

Fokke wrote:When I fight two sword I have one on both swords and use them all the time, even if its just to make my opponent do something I want.

Yeah they are good for making them concerned with say another hand...

In tourneys I use only greatswords: either 49" or 70". No thrusting tips.

However, when I use a polearm in melee, it's a stabbing good time with both the point and the butt spike.

The only time I don't have a thrusting tip on a weapon that historically had one is when it breaks off from smashing people to pulp.

I find it funny the disdain in the SCA for thrusting when it was the primary technique for serious maiming but will throw wrap shots till the cows come home.....

For game reasons that should be obvious but for some reason aren't, thrusting tips should be mandatory whether you use them or not. IF we are all using swords, we should either all have thrusting tips or disallow them entirely. If leaving off a thrusting tip affects the performance f the sword, then that is the reason why they should be mandatory. Imagine a medieval knight saying: I wanted better performance from my sword, so I cut off the point.

Now whether to use them or not is a differnt question. The german school says tat all swords have both an edge and a point, with the implication that you should damned well learn how to use both. I am in complete agreement.

As for thrusting with a greatsword. Absolutely. Very effective. Learn how to shoot th point from a sheitelhau and you be very pleased by the speed ned efficacy of the shot.

written on the fly.

If the weapon would have had one in "real life", then I put it on my weapon.

No idea the % of shots I throw with it. If you leave a spot for a thrust open, I'll throw the shot, same as any other.



.

I use em. In period I would most likely have had a cut and THRUST sword. A lot of people seem to really not like them saying that a thrusting tip takes away from our game. Though there is no way to know for sure I believe that I fight in a maner that wouldent look completely out of place in the mid 14th century.

I try to keep up with the other forms of attack as well and will limit my self to edge only in practice at times to help advance these techniques. Each to there own though.

Edward

Leo Medii wrote:The only time I don't have a thrusting tip on a weapon that historically had one is when it breaks off from smashing people to pulp.

I find it funny the disdain in the SCA for thrusting when it was the primary technique for serious maiming but will throw wrap shots till the cows come home.....

Good point Leo. And, guilty as charged. I think it is the nature of the sport, though--people tend to take almost any contact to the face from a thrust as a telling blow, for fear of diminishing their reputation.

Accordingly you see a lot of fighters, when in close, reach up on high and try to 'thread' their sword in between the other man's sword and shield and start trying to push the tip into his nose as if it was the "I win" button of yore.

I know I personally have been told to dial back on my face thrusts to a mere 'directed touch'--which to me, doesn't really feel like 'winning'

I think if we required face thrusts to be solid it would remove the stigma that some of the SCA places upon thrusting.

And as for wrap shots, well, without the option to grapple, a wrap is often the most practical technique to use in close. Granted I've never seen a wrap shot in a Fechtbuch, but I have no idea whether or not the technique was used in period (Fechtbuch's often intentionally omit much of the basics, assuming the student has already learned). It seems like a useful and practical technique for a mace or truncheon.

Looks like I should of added more detail. The thrust to the face doesn't have to land to make people back up. Of course, if the thrust lands, that's even better. I prefer to fight at range, instead of up-close.

Robert The Stout

I imagine that having a thrusting tip on a greatsword would allow you to play the range game on people who would be weary of catching a thrust on the way in.

Personally I have a thrusting tip on almost all my weapons, as my theory is I would rather have it and not use it, then want to use it and not have it. During practice I try no to thrust as much, because I am trying to work on my technique. I don't feel it is a 'cheap win' it just doesn't require the same type of skill that a well placed flatsnap dialed up to 7 does.

I fight primarily great sword and use the tip a lot. Its historic and effective. It is especially useful when fighting against sword and shield, if just to give them pause and help control range. Its one more thing for them to worry about as a threat. There are winding type shots against the shield that end with your point right there anyway, all you got to do is drive it home. My "get the hell away from me" thrust that I will stick in the middle of their shield is surprisingly effective at throwing their tempo off, and on occasion it can slide up to get in the face, or move the shield out of the way enough to allow a follow up shot.


I will go for the face when I can, but I actually prefer body thrusts and thrusts to the legs. They just have to be really solid and stick well. For a body thrust, if it isn't stopping the guy cold in his tracks, or sometimes even knocking him back a step, he is likely to blow it off. If it doesn't pop them good then there are plenty of times where they just keep pushing, wondering why they are being slowed down, while they try to hit me.

Face thrusts, I teach guys to go as light as they can, because rarely will the shot actually hit that light. Often the guy getting stabbed adds to the impact. Aim to bonk them with a slight head move, and if it happens to land harder due to other influences, he should still be safe. If you aim for harder, when the extra force is added due to a charge or duck, he could end up with a lot more than comfortable. I personally think that we could do with a bit harder in general, but I have to teach to the rules.