I'd love to play this tournament. Of course, i'd have to get authorized first.
--j
I 33 Sword and Buckler Tournament Comments Sought
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Asbjorn Johansen
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I printed out the pages (what a pixilated mess) and have worked through some of moves with both basket hilt and gauntlets, neither were perfect substitutes for no armour of course, but the basket hilt seemed to get in the way of executing moves more that the gauntlets (the shield covers for the sword seem to work better with a cross hilted sword, maybe it lets them just a touch closer together, I’m not sure). A couple of other folks I’ve talked with about this had the same experience, but of course we may just all have a bad half gauntlet and basket combinations. The biggest difficulty I’ve found is that rattan bounces when you hit the metal buckler in a manner that doesn’t seem anything like what a steel sword would do. It makes you want to use the classic SCA bounce and strike method of attack (use the bounce off the edge of the shield to power the next shot). I don’t think this would be possible with a steel sword.
Given the techniques shown, I think its emphasis is unarmoured combat. Many of the cuts, but some, certainly not all, of the cuts don’t seem powerful enough to be useful in armoured combat. That said, you’ll note I haven’t said anything about reducing blow force from standard SCA levels, I think our standard shots are inline with what would have been used in unarmoured combat.
Rhys, I think there may be serious flaws in how the combat in the manual is presented, but we can’t be sure its all wrong until someone has put a lot of time into looking at it. We don’t have translations of the text, but that shouldn’t stop us from working with the pictures. I thought about just doing an I33 work group, but in my experience a tournament is the type of carrot that will get more folks looking at the manual (or at least I’ll get to give them a copy). Some folks will just enter because they want to fight sword and buckler, but that’s fine, hopefully we’ll see how interpretations of the manual stand up to standard SCA combat (probably not well given the equipment constraints, but we’ll see). Maybe after working with it, we’ll find it doesn’t work, or that it just doesn’t work given the constraints of SCA combat, but its interesting and fun to try.
Asbjorn
Given the techniques shown, I think its emphasis is unarmoured combat. Many of the cuts, but some, certainly not all, of the cuts don’t seem powerful enough to be useful in armoured combat. That said, you’ll note I haven’t said anything about reducing blow force from standard SCA levels, I think our standard shots are inline with what would have been used in unarmoured combat.
Rhys, I think there may be serious flaws in how the combat in the manual is presented, but we can’t be sure its all wrong until someone has put a lot of time into looking at it. We don’t have translations of the text, but that shouldn’t stop us from working with the pictures. I thought about just doing an I33 work group, but in my experience a tournament is the type of carrot that will get more folks looking at the manual (or at least I’ll get to give them a copy). Some folks will just enter because they want to fight sword and buckler, but that’s fine, hopefully we’ll see how interpretations of the manual stand up to standard SCA combat (probably not well given the equipment constraints, but we’ll see). Maybe after working with it, we’ll find it doesn’t work, or that it just doesn’t work given the constraints of SCA combat, but its interesting and fun to try.
Asbjorn
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SyrRhys
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Asbjorn Johansen:
<B>
Rhys, I think there may be serious flaws in how the combat in the manual is presented, but we can’t be sure its all wrong until someone has put a lot of time into looking at it. We don’t have translations of the text, but that shouldn’t stop us from working with the pictures. I thought about just doing an I33 work group, but in my experience a tournament is the type of carrot that will get more folks looking at the manual (or at least I’ll get to give them a copy). Some folks will just enter because they want to fight sword and buckler, but that’s fine, hopefully we’ll see how interpretations of the manual stand up to standard SCA combat (probably not well given the equipment constraints, but we’ll see). Maybe after working with it, we’ll find it doesn’t work, or that it just doesn’t work given the constraints of SCA combat, but its interesting and fun to try.
Asbjorn</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe you're using basket hilts that are too big and bulky; I have nice, small cup hilts that are little larger than my gauntleted hand.
It isn't the bulk that's the issue, however, it's the ability to work the sword. A gauntleted hand just doesn't have the same control over a sword that a gloved hand does.
And you don't have to explain: I wasn't criticizing you for doing this, quite the contrary. My *initial* experiments with I 33 make me doubt its value, but I haven't tried applying it yet, and what you're doing seems like a decent start.
Of course, the vast majority of those whom you'll have at your tournament will never even have seen I 33, and the majority of those few who have will not have been able to make sense of it, so I'm not sure how much good it'll do, but it's an excellent way to start.
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
<B>
Rhys, I think there may be serious flaws in how the combat in the manual is presented, but we can’t be sure its all wrong until someone has put a lot of time into looking at it. We don’t have translations of the text, but that shouldn’t stop us from working with the pictures. I thought about just doing an I33 work group, but in my experience a tournament is the type of carrot that will get more folks looking at the manual (or at least I’ll get to give them a copy). Some folks will just enter because they want to fight sword and buckler, but that’s fine, hopefully we’ll see how interpretations of the manual stand up to standard SCA combat (probably not well given the equipment constraints, but we’ll see). Maybe after working with it, we’ll find it doesn’t work, or that it just doesn’t work given the constraints of SCA combat, but its interesting and fun to try.
Asbjorn</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe you're using basket hilts that are too big and bulky; I have nice, small cup hilts that are little larger than my gauntleted hand.
It isn't the bulk that's the issue, however, it's the ability to work the sword. A gauntleted hand just doesn't have the same control over a sword that a gloved hand does.
And you don't have to explain: I wasn't criticizing you for doing this, quite the contrary. My *initial* experiments with I 33 make me doubt its value, but I haven't tried applying it yet, and what you're doing seems like a decent start.
Of course, the vast majority of those whom you'll have at your tournament will never even have seen I 33, and the majority of those few who have will not have been able to make sense of it, so I'm not sure how much good it'll do, but it's an excellent way to start.
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
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IainMcClennan
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The folks at the Stoccata School of Defense in Australia have been working on I.33 with the benefit of Jeff Forgeng's translation. The translation will eventually be published, so it isn't allowed to be passed around. However Stephen Hand gave a class on the manual at Livermore last year and his notes spell out several of the techniques. Maybe he would let these be passed around for people to study before the tourney.
Iain
Iain
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SyrRhys
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by IainMcClennan:
<B>
The folks at the Stoccata School of Defense in Australia have been working on I.33 with the benefit of Jeff Forgeng's translation. The translation will eventually be published, so it isn't allowed to be passed around. However Stephen Hand gave a class on the manual at Livermore last year and his notes spell out several of the techniques. Maybe he would let these be passed around for people to study before the tourney.
Iain </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I spoke with Dr. Forgeng about this about a month ago, and I got the impression we will have something of a wait for his work to become available. Is there anything out there now for a starter?
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Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
<B>
The folks at the Stoccata School of Defense in Australia have been working on I.33 with the benefit of Jeff Forgeng's translation. The translation will eventually be published, so it isn't allowed to be passed around. However Stephen Hand gave a class on the manual at Livermore last year and his notes spell out several of the techniques. Maybe he would let these be passed around for people to study before the tourney.
Iain </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I spoke with Dr. Forgeng about this about a month ago, and I got the impression we will have something of a wait for his work to become available. Is there anything out there now for a starter?
------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field: Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
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Gaston de Clermont
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To address Dmitry's question, yes I will try to hold a class at some point. My own understanding of I33 is far from perfect, but I can try to repeat Stephen Hand's words, and what I've learned from Dr. Singman/Forgeng and my own study.
To those who question the power and speed of many I33 blows, I recommend thinking of parts of it like a bastard sword. Use the buckler hand to push the pommel. Knock managed to bruise my ribs through rolled 16 gauge stainless from that inverted low guard by doing just that. When you really understand it the techniques are frequently very fast and surprisingly powerful.
The most dangerous place to be is in close, in time of the hand. It's extremely difficult to stop a determined opponent with the I33 style once you're there without grappling. Making double kills more literally what they are- both loose- would encourage the styles exhibited in the tourney to be more as they were intended in the original.
If you're serious about studying I33 Dr. Singman's article in the royal armouries yearbook volume 2 for 1997 is worth a read. He identifies the 7 custodiae (wards, guards, whatever you call them) and puts forth some of his theories on how the style was used. Walking through the plates is very valuable, as is free sparing starting in each of the 7 custodiae.
The style looks weird and might seem impractical because it assumes a few things we typically don't:
1. A decent blow to any part of your body can be fatal. You've got to keep everything that's not a killing tool out of the other guy's reach.
2. The arm is a wonderful target. Imagine fighting a counter puncher who's primary goal is to break your arm. How would you fight him?
3. You can grapple. This includes grabbing even the tip of your opponent's blade.
4. If you really are fighting unarmoured, you're not wearing a cup. Honestly, would you stand up straight?
Gaston de Clermont
To those who question the power and speed of many I33 blows, I recommend thinking of parts of it like a bastard sword. Use the buckler hand to push the pommel. Knock managed to bruise my ribs through rolled 16 gauge stainless from that inverted low guard by doing just that. When you really understand it the techniques are frequently very fast and surprisingly powerful.
The most dangerous place to be is in close, in time of the hand. It's extremely difficult to stop a determined opponent with the I33 style once you're there without grappling. Making double kills more literally what they are- both loose- would encourage the styles exhibited in the tourney to be more as they were intended in the original.
If you're serious about studying I33 Dr. Singman's article in the royal armouries yearbook volume 2 for 1997 is worth a read. He identifies the 7 custodiae (wards, guards, whatever you call them) and puts forth some of his theories on how the style was used. Walking through the plates is very valuable, as is free sparing starting in each of the 7 custodiae.
The style looks weird and might seem impractical because it assumes a few things we typically don't:
1. A decent blow to any part of your body can be fatal. You've got to keep everything that's not a killing tool out of the other guy's reach.
2. The arm is a wonderful target. Imagine fighting a counter puncher who's primary goal is to break your arm. How would you fight him?
3. You can grapple. This includes grabbing even the tip of your opponent's blade.
4. If you really are fighting unarmoured, you're not wearing a cup. Honestly, would you stand up straight?
Gaston de Clermont
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Asbjorn Johansen
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Are there people interested in trying this with light weapons as well? I've been working with this some lately, but would like to try it with other people doing the same thing.
See the thread on my new 13th century fencing helm here: http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/006697.html
I'm going to try to get to pennsic this year. I've only been in the SCA for about a year, but this is the type of thing I'd like to get involved in. My heavy gear should be done (or at least done enough to be legal) by then, so I'd also be interested in the heavy version.
See the thread on my new 13th century fencing helm here: http://www.armourarchive.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/006697.html
I'm going to try to get to pennsic this year. I've only been in the SCA for about a year, but this is the type of thing I'd like to get involved in. My heavy gear should be done (or at least done enough to be legal) by then, so I'd also be interested in the heavy version.
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Baron Logan
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