And this should come as no shock

Murdock · Post by **Murdock** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 2:26 pm

Has anyone seen these new plastic basket hilts?

This should come as no suprise, i hate them.

I can flex the sides close enough to touch the hand inside with my little hands, and they are just butt ugly. They look kinda like a turtle shell at best.

Nothing personal to Baldar i like his arrow blunts, i just think the baskets look like a turd on a stick.

Watt · Post by **Watt** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 2:46 pm

If it was allowed, they would probably make helmets of pickle barrel plastic and duct tape.

------------------
Watt

Rev. George · Post by **Rev. George** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 3:17 pm

Well, I personally know one of baldar's squires... it took a long road to get rid of the blue plastic in his kit... still not done...

I think the guy's heart is in the right place, but maybe his focous isnt right...

Realistically, i could see a market for plastic cuphilts. if they are as ...pliable as you say they are, then perhaps a better material is needed, at least for a reinforce around the edges...

-+G

James B. · Post by **James B.** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 3:21 pm

I hate basket hilts anyway. I am not using a claymore.

Flonzy

------------------
Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 4:13 pm

I would not discount these outright. My understanding is that if you sandwich them between two layers of steel, they are safe, protective and don't look all that bad.

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 4:26 pm

On the other hand, if they don't look too horrendous, they would be more protective than plain hockey gloves, without badly altering the balance of a sword. Not every suit of armor used gauntlets. What's the difference between using an inaccurate basket hilt, and an inaccurate (in application) set of gauntlets?

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 4:37 pm

Your kidding, people still use hockey gloves with a broadsword?

Vincent_c=={=====- · Post by **Vincent_c=={=====-** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 4:58 pm

I'm with Murdoch, poo on a stick best sums it up. Why the hell do people have to ruin the atmosphere just to get a sporting yet unsportsman like advantage. Their armour looks like ass and its just an excuse for people who fight like ass to squek by without any real effort. All plastic ,within reason, should be banned. End of discussion.

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:25 pm

http://wolveshaven.topcities.com//photos/owen01.jpg

Notice the amazingly obvious plastic bits(hint: there are 5 pieces)

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Parlan · Post by **Parlan** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 5:45 pm

Yeah. And the lace-up shoes too.

So close, yet so far.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Owen:
http://wolveshaven.topcities.com//photos/owen01.jpg

Notice the amazingly obvious plastic bits(hint: there are 5 pieces)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Richard Blackmoore · Post by **Richard Blackmoore** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:07 pm

I was too distracted by the blatantly modern footgear and the plastic gauntlets to want to look for the 5 pieces of plastic armour. The maille looks nice though, as does the helm. But could I suggest you try smiling? It makes for better photos. Unless you are just depressed about the gauntlets and footgear detracting so badly from an otherwise nice harness. I understand, I hate parts of my harness too.

-Richard

Hushgirl · Post by **Hushgirl** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:41 pm

...poo on a stick..

Dang. Now I have to find a yellow stuffed bear...

Think I could make it legal?

Prince Of Darkmoor · Post by **Prince Of Darkmoor** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 6:57 pm

I think it would be legal only if you ductaped his eyes so the little hard plastic eyeballs wouldn't hurt anybody. Wait...Hush wants to use a plastic weapon??? Grab your torches and pitchforks boys!

Hushgirl · Post by **Hushgirl** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 7:17 pm

Okay, if I make the bear by hand out of linen and wool waste and put it on the end of an ash pole...

PoDlet's first weapon.

[This message has been edited by Hushgirl (edited 03-18-2002).]

Templar Bob/De Tyre · Post by **Templar Bob/De Tyre** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 7:19 pm

Yeah...and you can make a "Hunny" pot for a helm....

------------------
Robert Coleman, Jr.

The Noble Companie and Order of St. Maurice
Those who beat their swords into plowshares end up plowing for those who don't.

Remember: In Living History/Reinactment, Real Life is the Great Leveler of Man.

FrauHirsch · Post by **FrauHirsch** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 7:47 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Murdock:
Has anyone seen these new plastic basket hilts?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some people out here tried them for awhile, but I think they kept cracking and I haven't seen any around for awhile. One fighter I know had one and wanted to show it off. It was so light it changed the balance to be so unlike a sword. The whole sword felt like it weighed less than a pound. I just smiled politely and said the "balance was just too different for me"..

-Juliana

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 7:51 pm

My ankles won't take fighting in pull-on boots, not that they'd be accurate for this gear anyway. What I should be wearing is caligae, which are...laced boots. Ok, open toed, but the marshals'd have a fit. No turnshoes, then. As for the gauntlets, what would you suggest? Metal would look no better, as they didn't have them at all. I figure plain black is better than shiny.

The lack of smile was that this was taken after two hours of beating up my friends. I was tired.

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 8:18 pm

Umm bad footwear , plastic knees, plastic elbows, plastic gauntlets, a bit of white something or other sitcking out the side of the helmet, all painfully obvious. Nice mail and tunic, helmet not bad as well. Portrayal recognizable but flawed.
What was your point?

Sorry if this is harsh, but you did ask for it.

If you can't do pull-on boots, try the kind that lace up (with closed toes). I think "medieval mocassins" or whatever their name is, a pennsic merchant, makes those. They are not period, but perioid, and look far better than modern hiking boots.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 8:26 pm

I use baskets for 2 reasons (and have used these two for well over 10 years). Hand protection, and to help balance the sword where I want it. I added a bunch of brass to the spun steel to increase the weight.

Brodir · Post by **Brodir** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 8:30 pm

Are these the same as those being sold on Master G's site? Plastic baskets are very common around here, I own one but I don't use it very often, and will totally shelve it once I get a good paif of gaunts.

jagatei · Post by **jagatei** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 9:25 pm

the flexibility of the plastic depends on what version of them you got. He has been testing a few different materials. Some of them are more rigid but had problems with cracks where the sword attaches. The newest material has some flex but seemed rigid enough to me. I cant say I care for the color though. I think the only color the production ones will be in is a semi-orange tan color. I will probably cover one in leather or something.

The main attractive point for me is the price. I don't know many people making baskets for 20 bucks. These are a lot easier on the wallet than regular basket hilts.

Rorik Galbraith · Post by **Rorik Galbraith** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 10:59 pm

I have for the last 7 years used crossed hilted swords, but prior to that, I used a plastic design of my own and a friends. They were and are superior to any metal basket hilt made currently. But then, they are plastic so of course they are not to be used by the ones attempting a period look.

For those who are just wanting superior hand protection, though, they are by far the best I have ever used in the 20 years I have been playing this game. Metal hand baskets are either 1) to heavy, or 2) much to flymsy.

These baskets are made from a very high strength polymer that had to survive a 100 foot drop with 100 gallons of liquid and not crack or split. Of course, they're plastic and they look black but they were at least not smurf blue.

I still have one around to show my students that if they want a superior hand protection, but do not want to have the hassel of looking proper err...period, they have this choice.

See? I am open minded and even allow my students to use the dreaded polymer, although I do council against this road as it leads to smurfdom and I have been known to swats smurfs when ever possible....often and with great enthusiasim.

------------------
An oath, like an arrow, can not be recalled once loosed....think well before uttering such bindings and then stand fast to them.

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 11:26 pm

Dmitry- the "white" you see is a reflection from the cheekplate edge. The elbows are leather, not plastic; perhaps you are allowing your prejudices to show? Pull on boots are simply not period for this gear-they didn't exist. Boot-mocs are no better, and, again, do not provide any ankle support. They also don't protect the toes at all, legal or not.

The plastic you missed is the chest plate and kidney plates. The plastic section of the knees is now covered with fabric.

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Dmitriy · Post by **Dmitriy** » Mon Mar 18, 2002 11:48 pm

.. or perhaps it's the picture quality.

Mocs are better; they are not glaringly modern. They can be modified to provide ankle support -- or, if you need lots of it, wear a brace underneath, it's way better than shoes anyway.

As far as my prejudices go, I wear plastic legs myself -- they are well hidden.

The point is, you offered that picture as an example of unobtrusive plastic in a kit; in fact, it is intrusive. You have a fairly nice kit, and the shoes probably don't stand out as much on the East coast -- it seems two thirds of the fighters at pennsic can't imagine life without Nikes. If you can't get rid of them -- fine, you aren't breaking any rules (you would be in West or Caid, but you don't live here). Don't hold it up as an example like that, though.

Karl-Magnus · Post by **Karl-Magnus** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 12:44 am

I have a very cheesy suggestion for owen and his footwear: Bare with me this is weak,

Go with a commercial ankle brace if support for the joint is required. Add a very light tan ( read: flesh colored! ) pair of ankle high turnshoes. then run small strips of a darker leather across the shoe in a pattern to simulate sandals.

On a side note; I am simpathetic to the disdain of obvious plastic. But to call a man out for plastic guantlets is not right. The rules ( and common sense ) mandate hand protection. Owens persona would not have worn it. He has kept the color black in attempt to keep the attention focused on the rest of his kit.

Just my 2 cents,

J

RLTW

[This message has been edited by Karl-Magnus (edited 03-18-2002).]

Trevor · Post by **Trevor** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 12:57 am

We have a few Romans around here that wear the andals with leather "booties" underneath to pacify the marshals.

Jean Paul de Sens · Post by **Jean Paul de Sens** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 1:16 am

Actually I picked one up at Gulf Wars for GAA. Why? Because Ansteorra has a requirement (since allowed to be laxened) that mass weapons be tip heavy. This has made it difficult to use any metal basket hilt on a weapon unless you make an extremely heavy weapon (which technically is illegal).

I think you guys are going too far with your poo-pooing.

Rorik Galbraith · Post by **Rorik Galbraith** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 1:24 am

Owen, I really like your kit. The plastic is un-obtrusive as it probably can be unless you do something like cover it with suede or something just as out of period. I would say, don't bother.

The shoes? I think that Magnus has a very good idea...I happen to use that very method myself as I have no ankles to speak of after 6 plus breaks. (gravity works every time..all the time) I use a very nice sew on brace, then I cover it with wraps which are nice for my timeframe. I then use the turn type shoes. This protects my ankles from the wobbles and still looks close. Did not the later Roman personell use a closed boot? Perhaps that may be used.

Still, all in all, you have a nice kit and at least, the plastic parts are not blue! (by the way, how well does the hand protection work?)

------------------
An oath, like an arrow, can not be recalled once loosed....think well before uttering such bindings and then stand fast to them.

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 6:42 am

The EGG gauntlets are the best I have ever worn, superior to any pair of steel I have owned.

If I'm going to "fake" the look of caligae, why bother to use turnshoes? I've considered covers to simulate them over the boots, but I haven't come up with one that looks anything but horrible, big and clunky. I disagree that boot-mocs "look" period; they are as glaringly non-period for this suit as the hiking boots are. Most ankle braces only handle side-to-side motion; my problem is front-to-back as well (crushed in a MC accident). Boot mocs over an oversized caligae might work, but why wear two pair of boots?

The knees are there because the historically accurate greaves wear do not cover the side or top of the knee. All verions I've seen that do, don't look period. As I said, they're covered now.

I still disagree that ANY of it is "intrusive".

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Syrus Leigh · Post by **Syrus Leigh** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 8:55 am

Perhaps its just me, but has anyone else here ever been taken aback to find out a piece of armor is actualy made of plastic? I once atched a man fight all day, under the impression that his armor (some type of lorica segmenta) was leather. When I touched it, I was shocked. Te black plastic, beat up as it was, had totaly fooled me into believeing it was leather.

I was reminded of this here of the misinterpretation of Owen's elbows being plastic, when in fact were leather. In fact, the only thing I didn't realy like on all of Owen's kit were the boots.

Mind you, I don't approve of plastic, for the most part, at all. But sometimes it's a nessecary evil (I know this because the kit I've been asembling thus far has several plastic pieces - temporary, until I can aquire some steel replacements).

The biggest argument I've heard for plastic so far as not being period goes "if they had it then, they would have used it". Of course, this is pointless. Might as well take a nerf gun onto the field in representation of a rifle.

But of course, in my mind, thats only for the guys wearing armor made from a fish barrel. I've never realy had much against a few choice plastic pieces, as long as they can be well disguised. I only stary dislking it when the kit gets to the point where you can see exactly how much effort went into it's construction, and an extra few seconds of speed are sacrificed for a period kit.

Asbjorn Johansen · Post by **Asbjorn Johansen** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 11:42 am

I played with a sword that had one of Baldarâ€™s new basket hilts at Gulf Wars. They are inauthentic in form for most swords, inauthentic in material for period, and obtrusively modern in appearance. A sword built with one would need additional counter weighting to match the balance of a period weapon in most cases.

All that said, I do think they may have a use. Several users noted that they seem to help absorb some of the shock that travels back up the sword into your arm when you strike something hard. Iâ€™m considering purchasing one to mount on my pell sword, Iâ€™m trying to get my precision shots back, and plan to start doing significantly more pell work (once I finish unpacking from the war). Any additional shock absorption is welcome in pell work.

So my rating â€“ thumbs down for use at events and public practice, thumbs up for private pell work.

Asbjorn

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Tue Mar 19, 2002 6:31 pm

Btw, this is not to say I consider my kit perfect; I consider not so much "good enough" as "good enough for now". I am still working on a way to wear caligae, but my current project is to make a subarmalis to wear under it, and get the pteruges (not shown in that pic, it's 1 1/2 years old) attached to it (they're on a belt now).

I have considered covering the gauntlets with pale colored leather, but I doubt it would look any better, and might even call more attention to them. That, and I think the leather wouldn't do well there.

Going back to the basket hilts-
most metal baskets badly alter the balance of a sword; if a plastic one didn't, and handled properly, I'd see it as am improvement. If not, no.

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Lodhur · Post by **Lodhur** » Sat Mar 23, 2002 12:56 am

Owen,

I can't seem to open your pic, but I know your persona is Roman, right? Could you modify a manica pattern to cover the points of the elbow, maybe even add a few lames & a thumb for the hand? I'm going to try to make one such set for myself, if I ever have time to get in to Baron Stefan's shop. I'll be sure to tell you if it works.

I'm not roman, but its the closest thing to a gauntlet I can find before the 8th century.

Owen · Post by **Owen** » Sat Mar 23, 2002 7:55 am

Quintus is still working on a good repro of the manica; the one he has done is way too small for me, and doesn't move all that well yet.

When dealing with armoring parts that the original gear didn't, I'm presented with several options. One way, the one I chose (mostly), is to wear hidden or unobtrusive armor there. Another option is to use existing armor types, that weren't necessarily used by the legions in combat, such as a sports armor helmet (which had anthropomorphic faceplates) instead of a bargrill, and modified manica (used in the East, but probably not in Britannia). A problem I have is that these pieces, being unfamilier to many, actually detract somewhat from the "Roman" look. Down the road, I'll probably work on manica, just because, but for now, I'm concentrating on improving other aspects, such aa my boots. Eventually, I will come up with a way that doesn't look like hobbit feet. My feet are big enough as it is. I need to buy another pair of combat boots, so I can try gluing stuff to them (I also ride in mine now). I forgot to mention, I don't even wear the boots in that picture to fight in anymore; I wear combat boots, with steel toes (lost two toenails to getting stepped on, ain't going back). They are less bulky, and glueing a false caligae to them might work.

------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"

Sebastian K · Post by **Sebastian K** » Sat Mar 23, 2002 9:28 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jagatei:

The main attractive point for me is the price. I don't know many people making baskets for 20 bucks. These are a lot easier on the wallet than regular basket hilts.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't Otto make Baskets for 25$ ?

Sebastian