seige ramps at Gulf Wars?

freiman the minstrel · Tue Apr 02, 2002 7:04 am

OK, I have a question, if anybody feels like answering it.

Did they have seige ramps at gulf wars this year?

Connor McEldridge · Post by **Connor McEldridge** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 9:13 am

Yes, there were many.

Crystoll · Post by **Crystoll** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 10:18 am

Ramps?
Yes.
Marshalls to enforce the rules on ramps?
Nope.
Clear definition of the rules on ramps?
Nope.

Crystoll Mackintosh

Aidan Cambel · Post by **Aidan Cambel** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 12:56 pm

Assault Ramps

Once an assault ramp or stair is in place, it may not be dislodged while anyone is on it.
Each assault ramp must have four unarmed fighters, two to either side of the ramp, to act as spotters. These spotters may not be attacked until their ramp is empty and they have picked up weapons.
Once an assault ramp is placed on the wall, fort defenders standing within a three-foot "drop zone" within the fort marked by a red line must move back behind the line, to clear the drop zone. Any defender who does not clear the drop zone immediately, or who reenters it while the ramp is in place and occupied, will be declared dead by the marshals.
No one may be attacked on the assault ramps except with missile weapons. No one on the ramps may attack defenders, except with missile weapons.
Only one attacker may drop into the drop zone at a time. He or she must leave the drop zone before the next attacker can drop from the ramp. Any attacker who drops into a drop zone already occupied by one of his or her compatriots will be declared dead by the marshals. Assault troops on the ramps must be allowed to land on the ground, regain their footing, and leave the drop zone before being attacked in hand-to-hand combat by defending troops. Likewise, no one on the ramps may make an attack, except with missile weapons.
Both attackers and defenders are strongly encouraged to exercise caution in using and defending against the ramps. A drop of 3-4 feet on the fort side can be expected for attacking troops. PLEASE UNDERSTAND YOUR PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS BEFORE EVER STEPPING ON A RAMP.

Sounds pretty self-explanatory to me.

Stoffel · Post by **Stoffel** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 2:26 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there is no rule saying that crenelations are closed to attacking/spearing through once a ramp is in place? Yet I was called dead by a marshal for spearing someone through a ramped crenelation, somene who was not on the ramp(no one was on the ramp) and was attacking us through that same crenelation.

Crystoll · Post by **Crystoll** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 2:29 pm

I understand your frustration Stoffel..
I repeatedly watched multiple people land in the drop zone and move ot while someone was still in it..
The only thing I can think of in your case was if you stepped into the drop zone (as a defender) while the ramp is in place..
Then you would be called dead..

Crystoll

Stoffel · Post by **Stoffel** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 3:12 pm

Nope, I was far enough away not to step in it(six foot glaive, only got two foot out the window fully extended). The marshal specifically told me I was dead, that window was closed because there was a ramp there.

Marvin · Post by **Marvin** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 3:29 pm

Well, that stinks. I'm not certain that all the marshalls understood the rules in the same way.

I expect that the ramp rules will undergo some revision before next year - though I'm sure Conal can speak to that with more authority.

I will say that the folks from Ansteorra that I landed in front of in the first fort battle were very familiar with the rules and gave me plenty of time to get up after I went to my knees. It took some time to convince them that I had actually been shot in the thigh by an archer and couldn't take my feet as they were imploring me to do.

Once that bit of misunderstanding was cleared up, they very cordially smacked the living crap out of me.

[This message has been edited by Marvin (edited 04-02-2002).]

Cedric · Post by **Cedric** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 10:42 pm

Wow, thats much nicer than the year I went to Gulf Wars. I ran up one of those ramps and caught like three spears and at least as many arrows before I could even clear the top of the ramp. Landed in a pile of dead bodies on the other side. Basically everyone that went over the ramp was skewered before they got over the wall.

I swore never to go over one of those dumb things ever again.

Alcyoneus · Post by **Alcyoneus** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 12:41 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Cedric:
Wow, thats much nicer than the year I went to Gulf Wars. I ran up one of those ramps and caught like three spears and at least as many arrows before I could even clear the top of the ramp. Landed in a pile of dead bodies on the other side. Basically everyone that went over the ramp was skewered before they got over the wall.

I swore never to go over one of those dumb things ever again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why you need 3-4 attackers per defender on a prepared fortification throughout history.

That and disease.

Christian de Westborn · Wed Apr 03, 2002 3:39 pm

I've never encountered a siege ramp out here in the West Kingdom. But the rules seem pretty well defined above... which leads me to wonder what good they are. If only one guy at a time can come over the wall into the drop-zone and must move out before one of his fellows can follow, doesn't this lead to a stream of fighters getting ground up by the defenders outside the drop-zone? Where is the tactical advantage gained? Unless you've got enough lemmings to send up the ramp to pull defenders away from a gate or something, I just don't see the point.
However, I do see the obvious attraction of getting to jump off a relatively high level into a castle full of hostile fighters from a stylistic viewpoint... if you pull off something spiffy, you might get a song out of it.

------------------
Long live the Prince and Princess of Cynagua!

Marvin · Post by **Marvin** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 4:46 pm

The first guy that went over on our ramp is 6'9" and about 350#. He made a helluva an impression in the unit we fought.

By the time a came over (5th or 6th) there was actually a little room. It didn't last.

The folks on the other end of the wall did much better - but someone else can tell that story.

However, I do see the obvious attraction of getting to jump off a relatively high level into a castle full of hostile fighters from a stylistic viewpoint... if you pull off something spiffy, you might get a song out of it

It has definately become something of a rite of passage for new Gleann Abhann fighters. At least one local song contains some lines about those crazy ramps (and the loons that go over the wall on them).

Brandr · Post by **Brandr** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 6:05 pm

Greetings,
I was on the same ramp as Marvin. Matter of fact I was holding the front of the ramp and playing safety as the guys went over. The marshal near our ramp would only let one person on the ramp at a time. That was not the way I understood the rules but he was trying to do the right thing so I didn't argue. The ramps are useful but I have found that with all the battles each marshal interrupts the rules a little differently.

For example, in the field battle I was marshalling the edge of the field and had I don't know how many fighters telling me the correct way to marshal the edge of the field each saying something different. Then when they were called dead for excessively crossing the line as we were instructed to do, they complained.

The bottom line is the marshal is trying his/her best to follow the rules as they were laid out, make sure everyone is safe, and keep an eye out for problems. With the hundreds of people on the field, its not suprising that people complain when the marshals enforce a rule that goes against a particular party. Guess what the marshal can't win so cut them a little slack. They are making able for you to play.

Now that being said, anybody on here know who designed the ramps used at Gulf Wars and if that person would be willing to let me have access to their plans so that I can build one of my very own?

Later
Brandr

Lodhur · Post by **Lodhur** » Fri Apr 05, 2002 8:41 pm

Wow, those rules are really complex, IMHO. I haven't seen these ramps; but I would say that the ramps, the fortifications, & the rules all need revamping. I can totally see how a marshal, or fighter, could missinterpret them, on almost every point.

From the rules it seems like the ramps & walls are so inherently dangerous that the rules need to be made overly byzantine in order to compensate.

Marvin · Post by **Marvin** » Sat Apr 06, 2002 7:43 am

No - I think the ramps themselves are pretty safe - It's the 4-5 drop off of the wall in armor right in front of people trying to smack you with a stick that has some safety concerns.

Sorry - couldn't resist.

freiman the minstrel · Sun Apr 07, 2002 8:35 am

Don't apologize, Martin. At GW X a lady in armor hopped off a ramp and her shin bone broke. The Marshals, not having time to really "put a good think in" on the subject, disallowed the ramps during the hold, and opened a second breech. Seemd like a good move at the time, but I was then cut off within the Keep, pressed up against the wall. Instant dead minstrel.

We all figured, at the time, that that was the end of seige ramps at GW.

though I don't recall the drop being five feet. More like three and a half. But it's a real drop, capable of causing injury in some cases, at least.

that's why I asked.

Marvin · Post by **Marvin** » Sun Apr 07, 2002 10:49 am

Yeah, I was there for that. It was pretty nasty.

The drop is really about 3 feet in most places. We just happened to put our ramp in the steepest place allowed. About 4 feet down there, but I didn't really have time to stop and measure.

By and large, I thought the rules were well-written and well-reasoned. Now that we've used the new rules, we can "tweak" them a little for clarity and practcality.

These are a few of my suggestions regarding the ramps (Completely my opinion - feel free to suggest your own):

1. Spotters: I don't see how using four spotters is that much more safe than two as the angle makes it dificult for more than one person on each side of the ramp to actually reach someone to assist them.

2. Drop zones: Great idea, hard to implement. Most of my crew completely cleared our zone on the way down. I think it is better simply to require defenders to allow enough landing space and a chance for attackers to assume a "defensive" position before striking them. Requiring the zones be kept "clear" results in marshals spending time watching where our feet are instead of other, more pressing concerns.

3. Defenders' ramps: Limit the number of ramps that can be used inside the castle. In the second fort battle, we couldn't find a place to go over as all the ports were blocked. This was a smart, legal, and completly irritating use of the safety rules against us.

If I had my way, the rules would say "Don't do anything stupid." But I realize that many people must have "stupid" defined for them.