Why can't we halfsword in the SCA? I mean, I can understand about not striking with the pommel or quillions, but halfswording? Hell, we allow spears, don't we?
------------------
The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
SCA Halfswording
We don't do it in the kingdoms because it is forbidden at the Society level.
I don't know why it is forbidden at the Society level. Probably it has to do with murder strokes, quillon strikes, pommel smashes and such. I think we should allow specific elements of half-swording, with some qualifications for safety purposes.
I don't know why it is forbidden at the Society level. Probably it has to do with murder strokes, quillon strikes, pommel smashes and such. I think we should allow specific elements of half-swording, with some qualifications for safety purposes.
-
SyrRhys
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1980
- Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2002 2:01 am
- Location: San Bernardino, CA
- Contact:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jester:
We don't do it in the kingdoms because it is forbidden at the Society level.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't believe that's true. In fact, half-swording is now legal in the East, at least. Asbjorn (who's on this list) ran a formal test (which I thought was unnecessary, but he's a stickler for the rules) and got it explicitly legalized.
Actually, we're going farther: The King of the East has allowed me to start testing grabbing of your opponent's blade and pushing your opponent with your hand. The times they are a-changing.
The thing I've found about halfswording, however, is that it's difficult to use. The fact is that the reaon it was used in period was to get a very, very powerful thrust with careful point placement. Since the main SCA combat rules don't reward either of those things, the halfsword techniques aren't that valuable. We need to change the rules to simulate the need for more power and greater accuracy.
------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
We don't do it in the kingdoms because it is forbidden at the Society level.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't believe that's true. In fact, half-swording is now legal in the East, at least. Asbjorn (who's on this list) ran a formal test (which I thought was unnecessary, but he's a stickler for the rules) and got it explicitly legalized.
Actually, we're going farther: The King of the East has allowed me to start testing grabbing of your opponent's blade and pushing your opponent with your hand. The times they are a-changing.
The thing I've found about halfswording, however, is that it's difficult to use. The fact is that the reaon it was used in period was to get a very, very powerful thrust with careful point placement. Since the main SCA combat rules don't reward either of those things, the halfsword techniques aren't that valuable. We need to change the rules to simulate the need for more power and greater accuracy.
------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
I'm sorry. I should have quoted chapter and verse. Source: The Marshal's Handbook, revision of December, 2000 (the latest edition) online version from http://www.sca.org.
So much of IV. The Use of Weapons, Paragraph A. Sub-Paragraph 2. states
"The blade of a weapon may not be grasped at any time, nor may it be trapped in contact with the fighter's body as a means of preventing the opponent's use of the weapon. Neither may the blade of a fighter's own weapon be grasped to enhance a block."
I have always argued that this wording does not, in fact, prohibit the use of offensive half-swording. The first sentence clearly prohibits grasping or trapping the blade of your opponents weapon. The second sentence prohibits defensive half-swording. I have also, always been informed by marshals more senior to me that it should not be allowed because it is:
a) unsafe
b) unchivalrous
c) prohibited by the rules
d) all of the above
I think half-swording, both offensive and defensive, should be allowed and I have written sample rule sets for this. It's great to see that the rules are starting to allow more authenticity, at least in some places.
So much of IV. The Use of Weapons, Paragraph A. Sub-Paragraph 2. states
"The blade of a weapon may not be grasped at any time, nor may it be trapped in contact with the fighter's body as a means of preventing the opponent's use of the weapon. Neither may the blade of a fighter's own weapon be grasped to enhance a block."
I have always argued that this wording does not, in fact, prohibit the use of offensive half-swording. The first sentence clearly prohibits grasping or trapping the blade of your opponents weapon. The second sentence prohibits defensive half-swording. I have also, always been informed by marshals more senior to me that it should not be allowed because it is:
a) unsafe
b) unchivalrous
c) prohibited by the rules
d) all of the above
I think half-swording, both offensive and defensive, should be allowed and I have written sample rule sets for this. It's great to see that the rules are starting to allow more authenticity, at least in some places.
-
Asbjorn Johansen
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1699
- Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Aldan PA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Alcyoneus:
Asbjorn, that sounds just a little wrong to me. You can grab your blade with out injury, but I can't?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The reasoning for this is simple. If you were to reach out and grab my sword blade -I would twist, turn, push, and pull on it until I sliced off most of your hand (in otherwords until I pulled the sword free which wouldn't be hard since we don’t wear armor on our palms.) This is something that we do not do to ourselves when we grab our own weapon blade –unless we are insane!
I believe we should be able to grab our own blades, and be allowed to push aside an opponants still weapon with our hands –kinda like fencers do in the SCA.
(^_^)
Asbjorn, that sounds just a little wrong to me. You can grab your blade with out injury, but I can't?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The reasoning for this is simple. If you were to reach out and grab my sword blade -I would twist, turn, push, and pull on it until I sliced off most of your hand (in otherwords until I pulled the sword free which wouldn't be hard since we don’t wear armor on our palms.) This is something that we do not do to ourselves when we grab our own weapon blade –unless we are insane!
I believe we should be able to grab our own blades, and be allowed to push aside an opponants still weapon with our hands –kinda like fencers do in the SCA.
(^_^)
-
SyrRhys
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1980
- Joined: Tue Jan 22, 2002 2:01 am
- Location: San Bernardino, CA
- Contact:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by hjalmr:
<B>
The reasoning for this is simple. If you were to reach out and grab my sword blade -I would twist, turn, push, and pull on it until I sliced off most of your hand (in otherwords until I pulled the sword free which wouldn't be hard since we don’t wear armor on our palms.) This is something that we do not do to ourselves when we grab our own weapon blade –unless we are insane!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry, but the historical material doesn't support your belief. The fighting manuals and chronicles are *full* of references to grabbing your opponent's blade, even in *unarmored* combat. I've done it with a real sword, and it just doesn't hurt or cut you. Perhaps you've seen a lot of Japanese fantasies with mythical razor-sharp blades, like a lot of people have and that has tempered your beliefs, but it just isn't so (oh, and by the way, some Japanese kenjutsu schools also teach grabbing blades; it isn't just a Western thing).
Look here:
http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/Dl11.jpg
And here:
http://www.thehaca.com/talhoffer/t46.htm
Just for starters; I can show you more if you need them.
------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
<B>
The reasoning for this is simple. If you were to reach out and grab my sword blade -I would twist, turn, push, and pull on it until I sliced off most of your hand (in otherwords until I pulled the sword free which wouldn't be hard since we don’t wear armor on our palms.) This is something that we do not do to ourselves when we grab our own weapon blade –unless we are insane!
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry, but the historical material doesn't support your belief. The fighting manuals and chronicles are *full* of references to grabbing your opponent's blade, even in *unarmored* combat. I've done it with a real sword, and it just doesn't hurt or cut you. Perhaps you've seen a lot of Japanese fantasies with mythical razor-sharp blades, like a lot of people have and that has tempered your beliefs, but it just isn't so (oh, and by the way, some Japanese kenjutsu schools also teach grabbing blades; it isn't just a Western thing).
Look here:
http://www.thehaca.com/pdf/Dl11.jpg
And here:
http://www.thehaca.com/talhoffer/t46.htm
Just for starters; I can show you more if you need them.
------------------
Hugh Knight
"Welcome to the Church of the Open Field, let us 'prey': Hunt hard, kill swiftly, waste nothing, make no apologies"
i see a real problem with grabing your opponents blade. IMO the gut reaction to having your sword imobalized is to strike out with your other hand( ie Shield). A block/shield edge thrust to your opponents body/head/arm/neck could severly hamper the effectiveness of a grab. Its that suprised gut reaction that can be dangerous because calibration can go out the window. And rules that allow an attack but restrict the defence/counter stroke are rediculous. Grabbing also leads to grappling. ( someone grabs you just knock them on his/her butt)
its that safty vs authenticity issue...
Stosh
its that safty vs authenticity issue...
Stosh
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Stosh:
<B>i see a real problem with grabing your opponents blade. IMO the gut reaction to having your sword imobalized is to strike out with your other hand( ie Shield). A block/shield edge thrust to your opponents body/head/arm/neck could severly hamper the effectiveness of a grab. Its that suprised gut reaction that can be dangerous because calibration can go out the window. And rules that allow an attack but restrict the defence/counter stroke are rediculous. Grabbing also leads to grappling. ( someone grabs you just knock them on his/her butt)
its that safty vs authenticity issue...
Stosh </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Geeting knock on your butts not that bad.
Khann
<B>i see a real problem with grabing your opponents blade. IMO the gut reaction to having your sword imobalized is to strike out with your other hand( ie Shield). A block/shield edge thrust to your opponents body/head/arm/neck could severly hamper the effectiveness of a grab. Its that suprised gut reaction that can be dangerous because calibration can go out the window. And rules that allow an attack but restrict the defence/counter stroke are rediculous. Grabbing also leads to grappling. ( someone grabs you just knock them on his/her butt)
its that safty vs authenticity issue...
Stosh </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Geeting knock on your butts not that bad.
Khann
Hjalmar said:
>I believe we should be able to grab our own >blades, and be allowed to push aside an >opponants still weapon with our hands –>kinda like fencers do in the SCA.
(BTW, how do you do that boldface quote thing?)
In Calafia, at least, fencers may grab and hold their opponent's blade if both competitors agree to allow it. The default rules still permit open hand pushes on the blade and guard. In both cases, if the defender should succeed in drawing his blade edge against the hand, the hand is deemed disabled.
As someone mentioned, this technique is mentioned multiple times in period accounts and manuals for rapier as well as earlier forms such as longsword. The fencing master Saviolo perhaps said it best when recommending the use of even a naked hand to block a blow- "better to suffer a small hurt than a great hurt". To which one could add that with a glove on it might be no hurt at all.
>I believe we should be able to grab our own >blades, and be allowed to push aside an >opponants still weapon with our hands –>kinda like fencers do in the SCA.
(BTW, how do you do that boldface quote thing?)
In Calafia, at least, fencers may grab and hold their opponent's blade if both competitors agree to allow it. The default rules still permit open hand pushes on the blade and guard. In both cases, if the defender should succeed in drawing his blade edge against the hand, the hand is deemed disabled.
As someone mentioned, this technique is mentioned multiple times in period accounts and manuals for rapier as well as earlier forms such as longsword. The fencing master Saviolo perhaps said it best when recommending the use of even a naked hand to block a blow- "better to suffer a small hurt than a great hurt". To which one could add that with a glove on it might be no hurt at all.
-
Asbjorn Johansen
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1699
- Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Aldan PA
SyrRhys:
You are correct, but here is a problem with this though. This is the SCA, not actual medieval combat. All these manuals that you will refer me too will show combatants fighting with the same weapons (greatsword v/s greatsword.) This works fine in these circumstances. The slight cut that I may receive (from grabbing his weapon) before I drive my greatsword into my opponents body is negligible. Try doing this with sword and shield v/s greatsword, or against two-stick. I firmly believe that I would slice up my opponents hand long before he could connect with that one hand wielded greatsword.
This is what I am referring to. I apologize if I went off topic. I agree that a momentary (long enough to swing once or twice) grabbing off an identical weapon, just long enough to strike the opponent –should be allowed!
I also don’t think it should be allowed with hockey gloves –which are much easier to manipulate then gauntlets.
(^_^)
hjalmr
You are correct, but here is a problem with this though. This is the SCA, not actual medieval combat. All these manuals that you will refer me too will show combatants fighting with the same weapons (greatsword v/s greatsword.) This works fine in these circumstances. The slight cut that I may receive (from grabbing his weapon) before I drive my greatsword into my opponents body is negligible. Try doing this with sword and shield v/s greatsword, or against two-stick. I firmly believe that I would slice up my opponents hand long before he could connect with that one hand wielded greatsword.
This is what I am referring to. I apologize if I went off topic. I agree that a momentary (long enough to swing once or twice) grabbing off an identical weapon, just long enough to strike the opponent –should be allowed!
I also don’t think it should be allowed with hockey gloves –which are much easier to manipulate then gauntlets.
(^_^)
hjalmr
I must admit I'm not following the argument. Yes, this is SCA combat, but you are clearly concerned about how blade grappling would have worked in actual practice. You believe that you could slice your opponent's hand if he tried it, period manuals disagree with you (or at least feel it's worth the risk of a hurt hand). Why should disimilarity of weapons matter, BTW?
As far as SCA safety, rapier fencers do it against bated blades with no more than gloves on- including in the sidesword program which allows percussive cuts. We're not talking about using your hand to stop a chop, anyway. Usually these manuevers are grabs of static or bound weapons.
As far as SCA safety, rapier fencers do it against bated blades with no more than gloves on- including in the sidesword program which allows percussive cuts. We're not talking about using your hand to stop a chop, anyway. Usually these manuevers are grabs of static or bound weapons.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by David:
<B>I must admit I'm not following the argument. Yes, this is SCA combat, but you are clearly concerned about how blade grappling would have worked in actual practice. You believe that you could slice your opponent's hand if he tried it, period manuals disagree with you (or at least feel it's worth the risk of a hurt hand). Why should disimilarity of weapons matter, BTW?
As far as SCA safety, rapier fencers do it against bated blades with no more than gloves on- including in the sidesword program which allows percussive cuts. We're not talking about using your hand to stop a chop, anyway. Usually these manuevers are grabs of static or bound weapons.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi David.
Period manuals are not actual combat. Have you ever known anyone who thought they were a karate expert because they learned it from a magazine? I have a book sitting next to me on my shelf that demonstrates how to break bricks and bend steel -does this mean that everyone can just start knocking down biuldings? No. It means that it could be done under similar situations. In my opinion, it would be foolhardy to grasp a SHARPENED blade and hold on to it for a period of time. Now if these manuals are for rebated tournament combat, then I relent. But I find it hard to believe that this was practiced in actual life and death combat situations -regardless of what was in the movie Rob Roy!!
Grabbing REBATED steel blades and comparing it to sharpened blades is absurd! Thats like saying that since I stopped my car from rolling back out of my driveway the other day, I can now stop speeding cars like superman.
I explained why dissimilar weapon styles matter in my previous post, please reread it.
(^_^)
[This message has been edited by hjalmr (edited 04-29-2002).]
<B>I must admit I'm not following the argument. Yes, this is SCA combat, but you are clearly concerned about how blade grappling would have worked in actual practice. You believe that you could slice your opponent's hand if he tried it, period manuals disagree with you (or at least feel it's worth the risk of a hurt hand). Why should disimilarity of weapons matter, BTW?
As far as SCA safety, rapier fencers do it against bated blades with no more than gloves on- including in the sidesword program which allows percussive cuts. We're not talking about using your hand to stop a chop, anyway. Usually these manuevers are grabs of static or bound weapons.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi David.
Period manuals are not actual combat. Have you ever known anyone who thought they were a karate expert because they learned it from a magazine? I have a book sitting next to me on my shelf that demonstrates how to break bricks and bend steel -does this mean that everyone can just start knocking down biuldings? No. It means that it could be done under similar situations. In my opinion, it would be foolhardy to grasp a SHARPENED blade and hold on to it for a period of time. Now if these manuals are for rebated tournament combat, then I relent. But I find it hard to believe that this was practiced in actual life and death combat situations -regardless of what was in the movie Rob Roy!!
Grabbing REBATED steel blades and comparing it to sharpened blades is absurd! Thats like saying that since I stopped my car from rolling back out of my driveway the other day, I can now stop speeding cars like superman.
I explained why dissimilar weapon styles matter in my previous post, please reread it.
(^_^)
[This message has been edited by hjalmr (edited 04-29-2002).]
-
Winterfell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 12345
- Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2002 2:01 am
- Location: Reston
Just a couple of things.
One: Rhys is correct, grabbing the opponents blade has been documented and it can work in close quarters combat. The trick is that you a.) do not let your grip slip at all. And b.) that you do this only when you are locked in with your opponent. Don't go grabbing the blade that just happens to be waved in your face. c.) More than likely you will be wearing gloves.
I have tried it with a live sharp blade and did just fine so long as I did not loosen my grip.
Two: Rhys,
The second image you posted earlier ( http://www.thehaca.com/talhoffer/t46.htm ), if you look closely the guy on the right is not grabbing his opponents blade, he has his own and is about to sweep the pommel upwards. (Just nit picking.)
------------------
"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics
One: Rhys is correct, grabbing the opponents blade has been documented and it can work in close quarters combat. The trick is that you a.) do not let your grip slip at all. And b.) that you do this only when you are locked in with your opponent. Don't go grabbing the blade that just happens to be waved in your face. c.) More than likely you will be wearing gloves.
I have tried it with a live sharp blade and did just fine so long as I did not loosen my grip.
Two: Rhys,
The second image you posted earlier ( http://www.thehaca.com/talhoffer/t46.htm ), if you look closely the guy on the right is not grabbing his opponents blade, he has his own and is about to sweep the pommel upwards. (Just nit picking.)
------------------
"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics
Hjalmar said:
Grabbing REBATED steel blades and comparing it to sharpened blades is absurd! Thats like saying that since I stopped my car from rolling back out of my driveway the other day, I can now stop speeding cars like superman.
-Actually, I was opining that blade grappling could be done safely under SCA rules, since it is already being done safely with rebated weapons in SCA rapier (And in numerous WMA programs outside the SCA with wasters).
As I understand you, you feel that we shouldn't believe what the period masters say, as the various fectbuchs et al are no better than a "Dummies Guide to Longsword". If that is your feeling, ok- I understand where you're coming from now. Personally, I think we have a lot to learn from those who actually did sword combat. Nearly every period source discusses blade seizures.
Hjalmar added:
I explained why dissimilar weapon styles matter in my previous post, please reread it.
-You feel that an immobile broadsword would be quicker to free than a greatsword. You could prove this with seizure rules. If someone grabs your sword, and you can free it in time, go ahead and bob him.
I like the rule that a that weapon draws against a palm disables that hand. This provides an opportunity for the defender to free himself, as well as insuring that the offender must complete the grab quickly and cleanly.
I really think that blade grapples would be worth a go. They would be easily implemented and add to the realism of the sport. Anybody out there with experimental rules proposals?
[This message has been edited by David (edited 04-30-2002).]
Grabbing REBATED steel blades and comparing it to sharpened blades is absurd! Thats like saying that since I stopped my car from rolling back out of my driveway the other day, I can now stop speeding cars like superman.
-Actually, I was opining that blade grappling could be done safely under SCA rules, since it is already being done safely with rebated weapons in SCA rapier (And in numerous WMA programs outside the SCA with wasters).
As I understand you, you feel that we shouldn't believe what the period masters say, as the various fectbuchs et al are no better than a "Dummies Guide to Longsword". If that is your feeling, ok- I understand where you're coming from now. Personally, I think we have a lot to learn from those who actually did sword combat. Nearly every period source discusses blade seizures.
Hjalmar added:
I explained why dissimilar weapon styles matter in my previous post, please reread it.
-You feel that an immobile broadsword would be quicker to free than a greatsword. You could prove this with seizure rules. If someone grabs your sword, and you can free it in time, go ahead and bob him.
I like the rule that a that weapon draws against a palm disables that hand. This provides an opportunity for the defender to free himself, as well as insuring that the offender must complete the grab quickly and cleanly.
I really think that blade grapples would be worth a go. They would be easily implemented and add to the realism of the sport. Anybody out there with experimental rules proposals?
[This message has been edited by David (edited 04-30-2002).]
At least part of it, to me, is that under our rules, it would be unfair for my opponent to offensively use something (his hand) that I can't hit. My first reaction certainly would be to either pry the weapon loose, where we have no way of determining if a "real" weapon would have injured him in the process, or hit the hand, and we can't do that.
------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
------------------
Owen
"Death is but a doorway-
Here, let me hold that for you"
Owen raises a good point here. I was discussing some 'hypothetical' rule changes with some other Outlanders and the legal target area issue was one of the most serious issues raised.
Leaving aside the issue of grabbing your opponents' blade; if you use your hand to grab your own blade and block, shouldn't the hand become a legal target area?
I say yes. But I don't speak for anyone but me.
The legal target areas are defined at the Society level. The definition is, to a rule-mongering/lawyering point of view, open to discussion. The rules create legal target areas, but do not place specific areas off-limits.
Example: The marshal's handbook III. C. 7. defines the target area of the arms as:
"From the shoulder to one inch above the wrist."
Nowhere in the targeting rules, however, does it say that the hands cannot be a legal target.
Before people blow up at me, I am simply pointing out a *possible* interpretation of the rules.
Leaving aside the issue of grabbing your opponents' blade; if you use your hand to grab your own blade and block, shouldn't the hand become a legal target area?
I say yes. But I don't speak for anyone but me.
The legal target areas are defined at the Society level. The definition is, to a rule-mongering/lawyering point of view, open to discussion. The rules create legal target areas, but do not place specific areas off-limits.
Example: The marshal's handbook III. C. 7. defines the target area of the arms as:
"From the shoulder to one inch above the wrist."
Nowhere in the targeting rules, however, does it say that the hands cannot be a legal target.
Before people blow up at me, I am simply pointing out a *possible* interpretation of the rules.
-
Captain Jamie
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1427
- Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 2:01 am
- Location: Indianapolis, IN
- Contact:
Asbjorn- That "hack" has a serious flaw in it. If it is forbidden to grasp the blade of a weapon and you wish to redefine the handle as anything that you have a hold of then you no longer have anything that can be defined as a blade and hence you have nothing that can be used to strike me with. You have redefined to absurdium. As soon as you grab the blade you render the weapon ineffective as any spot on the blade can be grasped then no spot on the blade can be a blade. Or have I missed somethinf here?
------------------
Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain
------------------
Captain Jamie-a marvellous valorous gentleman, that is certain
-
Asbjorn Johansen
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1699
- Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Aldan PA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Captain Jamie:
<B>Asbjorn- That "hack" has a serious flaw in it. If it is forbidden to grasp the blade of a weapon and you wish to redefine the handle as anything that you have a hold of then you no longer have anything that can be defined as a blade and hence you have nothing that can be used to strike me with. You have redefined to absurdium. As soon as you grab the blade you render the weapon ineffective as any spot on the blade can be grasped then no spot on the blade can be a blade. Or have I missed somethinf here?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Most if not all of the half swording moves involve griping a blade so that you can thrust, or strike with the hilt or pommel (you can build SCA legal swords which can do the hilt and pommel strike). I'm not aware of any situations where a fetbutch shows an actual blade strike while halfswording (although there certainly may be).
If you really wanted to tweak you could simply say that the sections gripped are not considered blade but the rest is.
Asbjorn
(becoming an expert at the ancient art of rules lawyering)
<B>Asbjorn- That "hack" has a serious flaw in it. If it is forbidden to grasp the blade of a weapon and you wish to redefine the handle as anything that you have a hold of then you no longer have anything that can be defined as a blade and hence you have nothing that can be used to strike me with. You have redefined to absurdium. As soon as you grab the blade you render the weapon ineffective as any spot on the blade can be grasped then no spot on the blade can be a blade. Or have I missed somethinf here?
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Most if not all of the half swording moves involve griping a blade so that you can thrust, or strike with the hilt or pommel (you can build SCA legal swords which can do the hilt and pommel strike). I'm not aware of any situations where a fetbutch shows an actual blade strike while halfswording (although there certainly may be).
If you really wanted to tweak you could simply say that the sections gripped are not considered blade but the rest is.
Asbjorn
(becoming an expert at the ancient art of rules lawyering)
-
Asbjorn Johansen
- Archive Member
- Posts: 1699
- Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Aldan PA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by jester:
<B>
Leaving aside the issue of grabbing your opponents' blade; if you use your hand to grab your own blade and block, shouldn't the hand become a legal target area?
I say yes. But I don't speak for anyone but me.
The legal target areas are defined at the Society level. The definition is, to a rule-mongering/lawyering point of view, open to discussion. The rules create legal target areas, but do not place specific areas off-limits.
Example: The marshal's handbook III. C. 7. defines the target area of the arms as:
"From the shoulder to one inch above the wrist."
Nowhere in the targeting rules, however, does it say that the hands cannot be a legal target.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Very good read of the rules, I’ll have to remember that next time I do a tourney write up I may have to include that option.
If you are going to make a hand gripping a blade a legal target, you should probably take the next logical step and allow shots to the hands in general, in some form. I’ve played with the hands as a legal target, you know what the weird thing was? Aside from removing the basket hilt block as a standard maneuver, I found that the number of incidental hand strikes went down. Why? You became much more conscious of your hands for a few minutes, than tightened up you guard a bit. Basically you didn’t do a lot of the shots that you could get away with before because you exposed your hands. Once I got used to it my hands weren’t all that hard to protect, and I didn’t get hit there as often. It also made me realize how many of my emergency blocks were using the basket hilt, not the blade. Of course as soon as I went back to regular SCA fighting all my good habits went away.
I think the way to way to introduce the concept to the SCA is treat hits to the hand and wrist like a cup shot, you don’t target them intentionally but if they are struck they get counted as a good shot.
Asbjorn
<B>
Leaving aside the issue of grabbing your opponents' blade; if you use your hand to grab your own blade and block, shouldn't the hand become a legal target area?
I say yes. But I don't speak for anyone but me.
The legal target areas are defined at the Society level. The definition is, to a rule-mongering/lawyering point of view, open to discussion. The rules create legal target areas, but do not place specific areas off-limits.
Example: The marshal's handbook III. C. 7. defines the target area of the arms as:
"From the shoulder to one inch above the wrist."
Nowhere in the targeting rules, however, does it say that the hands cannot be a legal target.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Very good read of the rules, I’ll have to remember that next time I do a tourney write up I may have to include that option.
If you are going to make a hand gripping a blade a legal target, you should probably take the next logical step and allow shots to the hands in general, in some form. I’ve played with the hands as a legal target, you know what the weird thing was? Aside from removing the basket hilt block as a standard maneuver, I found that the number of incidental hand strikes went down. Why? You became much more conscious of your hands for a few minutes, than tightened up you guard a bit. Basically you didn’t do a lot of the shots that you could get away with before because you exposed your hands. Once I got used to it my hands weren’t all that hard to protect, and I didn’t get hit there as often. It also made me realize how many of my emergency blocks were using the basket hilt, not the blade. Of course as soon as I went back to regular SCA fighting all my good habits went away.
I think the way to way to introduce the concept to the SCA is treat hits to the hand and wrist like a cup shot, you don’t target them intentionally but if they are struck they get counted as a good shot.
Asbjorn
If you want to make alternate rules that allow the hand as an "accidental" target, then fine. Just make sure that everyone is playing under the same set of assumptions.
Rules-weaseling... yuck.
------------------
The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
Rules-weaseling... yuck.
------------------
The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Owen:
<B>By not defining the hand as a legal target, it is by definition not one.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree. As it stands, at the Society level, the hand is not a legal target area. It is not, however, prohibited for a kingdom to add the hand to the list of legal targets.
Rules-lawyering sucks. But ambigious rules *require* interpretation.
<B>By not defining the hand as a legal target, it is by definition not one.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree. As it stands, at the Society level, the hand is not a legal target area. It is not, however, prohibited for a kingdom to add the hand to the list of legal targets.
Rules-lawyering sucks. But ambigious rules *require* interpretation.
<<< I think the way to way to introduce the concept to the SCA is treat hits to the hand and wrist like a cup shot, you don’t target them intentionally but if they are struck they get counted as a good shot. >>>
I agree -and I am constantly blocking (unintentionally) with my poor little hands.
(^_^)
I agree -and I am constantly blocking (unintentionally) with my poor little hands.
(^_^)
-
Bob Charron
- Archive Member
- Posts: 430
- Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Madison, Wisconsin, USA
- Contact:
I would like to point out that if an individual wishes to explore the Medieval methods of using a weapon, they need not worry about the rules - in the following way.
Now when I enter the SCA lists, I take every blow that strikes me as sufficient to end the bout - leg, arm, body, head and hand. You may chose to yield a fight whenever you wish and without loss of honor. I take hand blows now, and treat every combat as a match of a single counted blow as far as my own acknowlegement is concerned.
No one can stop you from doing this, and as long as you inform your opponent beforehand, all should be well.
------------------
Bob Charron
St. Martins Academy of Medieval Arms
Now when I enter the SCA lists, I take every blow that strikes me as sufficient to end the bout - leg, arm, body, head and hand. You may chose to yield a fight whenever you wish and without loss of honor. I take hand blows now, and treat every combat as a match of a single counted blow as far as my own acknowlegement is concerned.
No one can stop you from doing this, and as long as you inform your opponent beforehand, all should be well.
------------------
Bob Charron
St. Martins Academy of Medieval Arms