With the seemingly growing trend for more authenticity in SCA combat, is "Old Castle" still used and encouraged? As I recall the positions for that style were pretty awkward and not very effective.
Any thoughts?
------------------
"As long as there are fanatics there will always be heretics
Old Castle (SCA topic)
-
Winterfell
- Archive Member
- Posts: 12345
- Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2002 2:01 am
- Location: Reston
since somebody is going to ask anyway, the oldcastle technique can be found here:
http://apollo.umuc.edu/wayne/SCA/Lore/Oldcastle_Sword_and_Shield/oldcastle_swo rd_and_shield.html
most of it isnt linked to, but its there, just change the url to "..../chapter3/chapter3.html"
theres a few other copys around, but this is the only one ive found with all the images intact.
[This message has been edited by Uryen (edited 05-07-2002).]
http://apollo.umuc.edu/wayne/SCA/Lore/Oldcastle_Sword_and_Shield/oldcastle_swo rd_and_shield.html
most of it isnt linked to, but its there, just change the url to "..../chapter3/chapter3.html"
theres a few other copys around, but this is the only one ive found with all the images intact.
[This message has been edited by Uryen (edited 05-07-2002).]
Also available, with full images, at:
http://scamelee.freeservers.com
In the articles section.
Part of the reason Oldcastle style is so visible may be:
1) Duke Gyrth wrote down his thoughts and made them available to anyone for free. So even if it's not the 'best' style out there, anyone can download the manual and give it a try.
2) If you really work at it, it can be, and was, an effective style. So a lot of people tried to use it and some of them still use variations of it. And those people teach people. And so on, and so forth... The Oldcastle household (including all the child households) is very large.
3) The basic Oldcastle swing is very useful for teaching very newcomers about generating power. It forces them to use their body rather than their arms.
4) The Oldcastle manual still has one of the better discussions of range management in a fight.
In a competitive situation (such as combat or sport fighting) the ultimate test of utility is success. As I like to put it 'Whatever works'. A lot of the authentic fighting techniques fail this test because of the rules we use in the SCA. I would guess the reverse to be true as well. So as long as it works, fighters will keep using techniques; authentic or otherwise.
http://scamelee.freeservers.com
In the articles section.
Part of the reason Oldcastle style is so visible may be:
1) Duke Gyrth wrote down his thoughts and made them available to anyone for free. So even if it's not the 'best' style out there, anyone can download the manual and give it a try.
2) If you really work at it, it can be, and was, an effective style. So a lot of people tried to use it and some of them still use variations of it. And those people teach people. And so on, and so forth... The Oldcastle household (including all the child households) is very large.
3) The basic Oldcastle swing is very useful for teaching very newcomers about generating power. It forces them to use their body rather than their arms.
4) The Oldcastle manual still has one of the better discussions of range management in a fight.
In a competitive situation (such as combat or sport fighting) the ultimate test of utility is success. As I like to put it 'Whatever works'. A lot of the authentic fighting techniques fail this test because of the rules we use in the SCA. I would guess the reverse to be true as well. So as long as it works, fighters will keep using techniques; authentic or otherwise.
I fight Oldcastle style, and I've had varying degrees of success with it depending on how hard I'm training at the time. Maybe it's analagous to aikido; if you are well trained, it's an amazingly effective martial art, but until you reach a fairly high threshold, it's frustrating and ineffective. When it's "on", it has two great strengths:
- It's a very defensive style. When I'm in form, there are lots of people I just frustrate the heck out of with very little effort on my part.
- All of the movement is designed to create openings. A lot of its antagonists claim that Oldcastle is ineffective because the blows take longer to reach the target from the rest position, but if you're completely open, I only need one shot.
If you want to learn Oldcastle, find a good teacher, which means someone who understands its intricacies and can make it work on the field; i.e. they bash heads good with it. Then, be prepared to practice. A lot.
- Kyle
- It's a very defensive style. When I'm in form, there are lots of people I just frustrate the heck out of with very little effort on my part.
- All of the movement is designed to create openings. A lot of its antagonists claim that Oldcastle is ineffective because the blows take longer to reach the target from the rest position, but if you're completely open, I only need one shot.
If you want to learn Oldcastle, find a good teacher, which means someone who understands its intricacies and can make it work on the field; i.e. they bash heads good with it. Then, be prepared to practice. A lot.
- Kyle
Serving the pie. Hehe got to love the SCA. http://www.thequarter.org/Media/Teutonic.php
Flonzy
------------------
Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.
Flonzy
------------------
Cheap garb is as bad as plastic armor.
-
David deKunstenaar
- Archive Member
- Posts: 979
- Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2001 2:01 am
- Location: Louisville, KY
- Contact:
That elbow up thing looks painful. I would not want my arm pit exposed like that, nor my elbow up to get cracked. Fight a two stick guy, and your gonna get hurt. I think I continue to teach people to keep it tight. I agree with the foot push off, and hip power, it is the same as throwing a punch. Always keeping the same footing is to limiting to movement. I can see this being very strong in the 80's but most of the fighters I see today are to mobil, and will run rings around this.
I loved the Capt. Tutonic clip!
------------------
Baron Sir David deKunstenaar, Midrealm
I loved the Capt. Tutonic clip!
------------------
Baron Sir David deKunstenaar, Midrealm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by David deKunstenaar:
...but most of the fighters I see today are to mobil, and will run rings around this.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with his Excellency, mobility is the key to defeating Oldcastle. Not only is your mobility compromised, but attacks are delivered more slowly than other styles. I learned on Oldcastle(before we called it Oldcastle) in the 80's; upon returning to the SCA a few years ago I found many of it's techniques had lost a great deal of their efficacy in the new fighting paradigm. It's still worthwhile learning Oldcastle but I expect only about two thirds of the style as defined will be advantageous.
...but most of the fighters I see today are to mobil, and will run rings around this.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree with his Excellency, mobility is the key to defeating Oldcastle. Not only is your mobility compromised, but attacks are delivered more slowly than other styles. I learned on Oldcastle(before we called it Oldcastle) in the 80's; upon returning to the SCA a few years ago I found many of it's techniques had lost a great deal of their efficacy in the new fighting paradigm. It's still worthwhile learning Oldcastle but I expect only about two thirds of the style as defined will be advantageous.
Sir David,
All I can say on the exposed-elbow-and-armpit perception is that it is just that; a perception. When in guard, I have never been hit on right shoulder, armpit, or arm, by _any_ weapons style. In addition to it being obscured by the rest of my body and shield (which should be all in line towards you), just the fact that it's further away means I have more time to get it out of the way if you're gunning for it. If it's any consolation, I can't count the number of people who've asked me, "Doesn't your arm get hit a lot?", so it _looks_ chancy to a lot of people.
- Kyle
All I can say on the exposed-elbow-and-armpit perception is that it is just that; a perception. When in guard, I have never been hit on right shoulder, armpit, or arm, by _any_ weapons style. In addition to it being obscured by the rest of my body and shield (which should be all in line towards you), just the fact that it's further away means I have more time to get it out of the way if you're gunning for it. If it's any consolation, I can't count the number of people who've asked me, "Doesn't your arm get hit a lot?", so it _looks_ chancy to a lot of people.
- Kyle
-
Heairn
- Archive Member
- Posts: 750
- Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2002 2:01 am
- Location: Pittsburgh, Pa,USA
- Contact:
Prior to entering in Crown (I believe it was the 7th Crown of Aethelmearc) I took some time to do some serious training. I travelled to visit several successful Royal Peers for personal Training. Duke Gyrth and I focused on footwork technique. In fact, that's all we talked about with regard to fighting technique during that visit.
My personal style is based off the Bedford/Terragon stance. I tend to be far more forward in my alignment than an OC fighter, and one of my "bread and butter" shots is the armpit. His Grace doesn't fight anywhere NEAR as often as he did when he worked on documenting this style, and he's not what you'd consider the most nimble of fellows, but I WILL say this: I finished in the finals in that Crown, losing to Duke Morguhn Sheridan.. but I couldn't TOUCH Gyrth.
The key to the Oldcastle style is angle and movement, movement and angle. Move your opponent by your facing, force him to take the angle YOU want, control the range..moving into low "B"/high "A" when you're ready, not at your opponents whim. Footwork. Footwork. Footwork. Footwork. It is not an easy style to master. Mobility is not a liablity to Oldcastle.. it is it's asset, when done *correctly.* You control the tempo and the engagement, and you start it waaaaaaay out in "C" range, just by the way you stand.
Believe me.. when done right.. it's just as effective now as it ever was. It's just rarely worked on to the dedication it takes to make it "right."
Yours..
Malcolm
My personal style is based off the Bedford/Terragon stance. I tend to be far more forward in my alignment than an OC fighter, and one of my "bread and butter" shots is the armpit. His Grace doesn't fight anywhere NEAR as often as he did when he worked on documenting this style, and he's not what you'd consider the most nimble of fellows, but I WILL say this: I finished in the finals in that Crown, losing to Duke Morguhn Sheridan.. but I couldn't TOUCH Gyrth.
The key to the Oldcastle style is angle and movement, movement and angle. Move your opponent by your facing, force him to take the angle YOU want, control the range..moving into low "B"/high "A" when you're ready, not at your opponents whim. Footwork. Footwork. Footwork. Footwork. It is not an easy style to master. Mobility is not a liablity to Oldcastle.. it is it's asset, when done *correctly.* You control the tempo and the engagement, and you start it waaaaaaay out in "C" range, just by the way you stand.
Believe me.. when done right.. it's just as effective now as it ever was. It's just rarely worked on to the dedication it takes to make it "right."
Yours..
Malcolm