Vermin: Just out of interest, did she keep coming back? If so, I've got to respect her, although I can understand how upsetting it could be to the guys who made her cry.
------------------
The defining characteristic of fanaticism is the inability to understand why everyone else is not a fanatic.
Scarily small fighters
There's crying and there's crying. What kind of crying was this? The "I'm so frustrated I don't know what to do" cry? The "I'm not good enough" cry? The "I don't know why I'm crying, I just am" cry? Or the "I'm too mad to talk" cry? Or the "I'm scared out of my wits" cry? Did you read the Ironrose book? It goes into detail about women crying as a response to physical stress/conflict.
We don't plan to cry, it's like sweat, it happens.
We don't plan to cry, it's like sweat, it happens.
Don't know, don't care.
If you cry when you fight, people don't like to fight you.
I certainly won't.
I don't consider it an enjoyable SCA combat experience, not in the slightest way.
I don't care if we're all supposed to be all nice and friendly in the SCA.
IN the REAL world I've seen weeping females do enough irrational things during a crying bout that I just simply don't want to deal with them in SCA combat.
Because I don't KNOW what they're upset about.
In actuality, I don't WANT to know.
I don't wanna play therapist......I'm here to fight.
Yes, I've read the Iron Rose book.
I like the part about ingrained behavioral patterns.
It makes a good bit of sense.
But put the shoe on the OTHER foot.
Alot of guys have ingrained behavior that tells them NOT to fight with a weeping female.
(And the SCA furthers this just by it's Ideals" of the "Chivalric" behavior expected of it's participants....think about it.)
They really don't enjoy it at all.
We don't plan it, it just happens.
VvS
If you cry when you fight, people don't like to fight you.
I certainly won't.
I don't consider it an enjoyable SCA combat experience, not in the slightest way.
I don't care if we're all supposed to be all nice and friendly in the SCA.
IN the REAL world I've seen weeping females do enough irrational things during a crying bout that I just simply don't want to deal with them in SCA combat.
Because I don't KNOW what they're upset about.
In actuality, I don't WANT to know.
I don't wanna play therapist......I'm here to fight.
Yes, I've read the Iron Rose book.
I like the part about ingrained behavioral patterns.
It makes a good bit of sense.
But put the shoe on the OTHER foot.
Alot of guys have ingrained behavior that tells them NOT to fight with a weeping female.
(And the SCA furthers this just by it's Ideals" of the "Chivalric" behavior expected of it's participants....think about it.)
They really don't enjoy it at all.
We don't plan it, it just happens.
VvS
-
widow montoya
- Archive Member
- Posts: 779
- Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Potsdam, NY
Hmm...I don't really fall under the small fighter scale here, (5'8, 170 lbs), but I thought I'd throw in my two cents.
I've been fighting with more or less minmum armor + vambraces and upper legs for almost a year now, since I got tired of the restrictiveness of my old body armor. Not that many people have realized that I don't wear rib, shoulder or spine protection (other than the minimum required short ribs/kidneys and cervical vertabrae) because I cover everything up with a linen tunic.
I'm currently making more body armor, not because of injuries (that's my own lookout, and a decent reason to armor more), but because I've decided that it's not fair to make other people have to deal with their own emotional response when I get the wind knocked out of me from a solid rib shot and can't talk for a couple minutes.
This is, to me, what it really comes down to. I am not so much concerned with my own need for more armor (which is its own issue), as with the fact that it just really doesn't seem fair to have my friends have to deal with the "I broke the girl" emotional response. It seems to me that, out of respect for *other people's* mental and emotional comfort, I should put on a little more armor.
In a way, it's the same reason that I guard paranoically against hitting someone in the cup. *I* feel bad about breaking someone in that case, so bad that I avoid a lot of gut shots with a pike for fear of someone taking that step in the wrong direction.
I'm not trying to say that everyone smaller should armor more. I think that the amount of armor (above minimum) that one wears is one's personal choice, I just thought I'd mention my thoughts on the matter of extra armor.
YIS,
Jimena
I've been fighting with more or less minmum armor + vambraces and upper legs for almost a year now, since I got tired of the restrictiveness of my old body armor. Not that many people have realized that I don't wear rib, shoulder or spine protection (other than the minimum required short ribs/kidneys and cervical vertabrae) because I cover everything up with a linen tunic.
I'm currently making more body armor, not because of injuries (that's my own lookout, and a decent reason to armor more), but because I've decided that it's not fair to make other people have to deal with their own emotional response when I get the wind knocked out of me from a solid rib shot and can't talk for a couple minutes.
This is, to me, what it really comes down to. I am not so much concerned with my own need for more armor (which is its own issue), as with the fact that it just really doesn't seem fair to have my friends have to deal with the "I broke the girl" emotional response. It seems to me that, out of respect for *other people's* mental and emotional comfort, I should put on a little more armor.
In a way, it's the same reason that I guard paranoically against hitting someone in the cup. *I* feel bad about breaking someone in that case, so bad that I avoid a lot of gut shots with a pike for fear of someone taking that step in the wrong direction.
I'm not trying to say that everyone smaller should armor more. I think that the amount of armor (above minimum) that one wears is one's personal choice, I just thought I'd mention my thoughts on the matter of extra armor.
YIS,
Jimena
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sebastian:
<B>Correct me if I am wrong...
Isn't Her Royal Majesty of Calontir and KSCA a bit on the wee side?
I seem to remember looking over her head, and I'm only 5'8".
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yep, THat's HRM Ariel. She's maybe 5'. She was fighting a friend of mine a couple of weeks ago, who has been in the SCA for 20 years or so. Hwile fighting her, he remarked that he was getting frustrated fighting her because she was skillfully blocking his every shot.
She then burst out, "THAT'S for years and YEARS of frustration where you would whack me at will while I could-never-land a shot on you!!! Do you know how frustrating it was to fight you and continually get pounded over and over again?..."
You have to respect the dedication it takes to get back on the field after being on the receiving end for so many years. But, she persevered, and is today a very, very good fighter, deserving of her knighthood in every way.
------------------
All bleeding eventually stops.
<B>Correct me if I am wrong...
Isn't Her Royal Majesty of Calontir and KSCA a bit on the wee side?
I seem to remember looking over her head, and I'm only 5'8".
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yep, THat's HRM Ariel. She's maybe 5'. She was fighting a friend of mine a couple of weeks ago, who has been in the SCA for 20 years or so. Hwile fighting her, he remarked that he was getting frustrated fighting her because she was skillfully blocking his every shot.
She then burst out, "THAT'S for years and YEARS of frustration where you would whack me at will while I could-never-land a shot on you!!! Do you know how frustrating it was to fight you and continually get pounded over and over again?..."
You have to respect the dedication it takes to get back on the field after being on the receiving end for so many years. But, she persevered, and is today a very, very good fighter, deserving of her knighthood in every way.
------------------
All bleeding eventually stops.
-
FrauHirsch
- Archive Member
- Posts: 4520
- Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 2:01 am
- Location: San Diego, CA, USA
- Contact:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vermin:
<B>Don't know, don't care.
If you cry when you fight, people don't like to fight you.
VvS</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have to agree with Vermin on this. I wouldn't like to fight someone who cries either. I hate to fight someone who flinches too.
IMHO, After fighting for 24 yrs or so, I have rarely seen cryers stick with it. Different women have different emotional baggage. Some women really should not be out there. But thats not a size issue...
But then I will admit that I cried about fighting once that I remember, in anger, off the field, steaming mad, its really a good thing I didn't have a real sword or someone would have been a few cajones short that day. The defensive reaction from my brothers was quite strong. The bad guy left the lists bleeding that day (no kidding, bleeding so bad he couldn't see -- though he would not acknowledge the shot from my dear Brother Sir Aethelred the Jute...) So clearly that crying set off a chain reaction that was very strong. I cannot imagine the reaction of the guys to someone who cried easily or often.
At Potrero War this weekend, I was hit with excessive force. It made my eyes water for a minute, but that could have just been from all the dust.. The blow was a blindside from a falchion and should have been a kill from behind. It was so hard I could feel my vertibrae crunch as they compressed. I have a heavy helm and train with big guys who are hard hitters. This this was really bad.
Mostly I was annoyed. OK, I admit I cussed a bit
I knew who did it and also knew that even if I was a guy he would blow off a complaint, let alone from a woman. Saying anything to him would have done no good, or even made him worse. So I'll just hope I won't be visiting a chiropractor next week... grrr.
Re: Armored Rose:
In the Armored Rose book, Tobi Beck did write down some things about fighting that many of us figured out years ago. That is great as a starting point. There are also some items in the book I don't find useful or just disagree with. Some women and men will take it as gospel, but women and women's bodies vary just as much as men's. Every fighter needs to be flexible about finding what works best for them.
Juliana
<B>Don't know, don't care.
If you cry when you fight, people don't like to fight you.
VvS</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have to agree with Vermin on this. I wouldn't like to fight someone who cries either. I hate to fight someone who flinches too.
IMHO, After fighting for 24 yrs or so, I have rarely seen cryers stick with it. Different women have different emotional baggage. Some women really should not be out there. But thats not a size issue...
But then I will admit that I cried about fighting once that I remember, in anger, off the field, steaming mad, its really a good thing I didn't have a real sword or someone would have been a few cajones short that day. The defensive reaction from my brothers was quite strong. The bad guy left the lists bleeding that day (no kidding, bleeding so bad he couldn't see -- though he would not acknowledge the shot from my dear Brother Sir Aethelred the Jute...) So clearly that crying set off a chain reaction that was very strong. I cannot imagine the reaction of the guys to someone who cried easily or often.
At Potrero War this weekend, I was hit with excessive force. It made my eyes water for a minute, but that could have just been from all the dust.. The blow was a blindside from a falchion and should have been a kill from behind. It was so hard I could feel my vertibrae crunch as they compressed. I have a heavy helm and train with big guys who are hard hitters. This this was really bad.
Mostly I was annoyed. OK, I admit I cussed a bit
I knew who did it and also knew that even if I was a guy he would blow off a complaint, let alone from a woman. Saying anything to him would have done no good, or even made him worse. So I'll just hope I won't be visiting a chiropractor next week... grrr.Re: Armored Rose:
In the Armored Rose book, Tobi Beck did write down some things about fighting that many of us figured out years ago. That is great as a starting point. There are also some items in the book I don't find useful or just disagree with. Some women and men will take it as gospel, but women and women's bodies vary just as much as men's. Every fighter needs to be flexible about finding what works best for them.
Juliana
My lady is one of the scarily small fighters you describe (5'2" - 105lbs). In 12 years of combat, she has NEVER had a major injury. She fights often and well, and holds several fighting awards here in our Kingdom.
But she does something that many people forget...SHE WEARS ARMOUR THAT IS BUILT FOR HER. She is covered from head to ankle with armour that protects her from getting hurt. Does she get hit...sure. Hard... better believe it. Would I tell het to stop? Nope...I am not suicidal.
It is a free country, when we tell people they cannot do something, we would be breaking their rights. Everyone (of age)should have the opportunity to fight if they so choose.
Mav
But she does something that many people forget...SHE WEARS ARMOUR THAT IS BUILT FOR HER. She is covered from head to ankle with armour that protects her from getting hurt. Does she get hit...sure. Hard... better believe it. Would I tell het to stop? Nope...I am not suicidal.
It is a free country, when we tell people they cannot do something, we would be breaking their rights. Everyone (of age)should have the opportunity to fight if they so choose.
Mav
Come on, Mav, NOBODY is talking about telling SSF's they CAN'T fight. The questions out there are:
1) How can an opponent cope with the fear that they are going to 'break' their SSF opponent?
and
2) How do we make it so that SSF's can fight without exposing them to a greater risk of injury than any other fighter?
Your first point was exactly what needed to be said -- SSF's probably need to armor up, and they need to have armor made for them. Ill-fitting armor is probably the second greatest cause of serious injury we have (falling down seems to be the first). This problem is more evident on new SSF's in borrowed gear, since they are very unlikely to be close to the size of the person for whom the gear was originally made.
Another approach to averting impending disaster is to improve the training regimen. Ideally, it would be for SSF's, but even raising the all-around standard would be a step in the right direction. We could also consider instituting a rule prohibiting unauthorized fighters from free-sparring, though I feel this is virtually un-enforceable.
Remember, part of this problem (IMnsHO) is not just the SSF, but the "average" new fighter that constitutes the bulk of an SSF's first practice bouts. If we actually imposed a standard of weapon control as a requisite to authorization, the chance of an SSF accidentally getting munched by a larger opponent might go down. With the currently low expectations (as little as not swinging low and not hitting with the hilts), the risk of injury to an SSF are still pretty high (compared with the risk to a larger opponent of comparable skill).
If we attack the problems of bad/insufficient armor and training, the first question should take care of itself. Not only will the larger opponent have greater faith in the SSF's ability to protect him/herself, but they will also have some level of confidence in their own ability to control their own contribution to the fight and reduce the risk of 'breaking' their SSF opponent. This can ony be a Good Thing *tm* in the long run. In my experience, better armor and better training almost always equals more fun all around.
With regards,
-cheval-
1) How can an opponent cope with the fear that they are going to 'break' their SSF opponent?
and
2) How do we make it so that SSF's can fight without exposing them to a greater risk of injury than any other fighter?
Your first point was exactly what needed to be said -- SSF's probably need to armor up, and they need to have armor made for them. Ill-fitting armor is probably the second greatest cause of serious injury we have (falling down seems to be the first). This problem is more evident on new SSF's in borrowed gear, since they are very unlikely to be close to the size of the person for whom the gear was originally made.
Another approach to averting impending disaster is to improve the training regimen. Ideally, it would be for SSF's, but even raising the all-around standard would be a step in the right direction. We could also consider instituting a rule prohibiting unauthorized fighters from free-sparring, though I feel this is virtually un-enforceable.
Remember, part of this problem (IMnsHO) is not just the SSF, but the "average" new fighter that constitutes the bulk of an SSF's first practice bouts. If we actually imposed a standard of weapon control as a requisite to authorization, the chance of an SSF accidentally getting munched by a larger opponent might go down. With the currently low expectations (as little as not swinging low and not hitting with the hilts), the risk of injury to an SSF are still pretty high (compared with the risk to a larger opponent of comparable skill).
If we attack the problems of bad/insufficient armor and training, the first question should take care of itself. Not only will the larger opponent have greater faith in the SSF's ability to protect him/herself, but they will also have some level of confidence in their own ability to control their own contribution to the fight and reduce the risk of 'breaking' their SSF opponent. This can ony be a Good Thing *tm* in the long run. In my experience, better armor and better training almost always equals more fun all around.
With regards,
-cheval-
Looking at the above responses, it seems that the biggest problems aren't so much as to what SSF's should do, it's more about their opponent's mindset.
I say get the F#%& over it.
I'm going to go out and thump someone, no matter how big or small they are. Sure, I'm not going to gack some newbie who can't defend themselves. That's not nice.
But, if there is a reasonably experienced fighter who knows what he/she is getting themselves into, then let the games begin. I will probably fight them just a bit more defensively (because I don't want my ego bruised by getting beaten by a girl, frankly) and when an opening comes available, they're going to get thumped. If they shuck it-then they get what they deserve.
I'm not going to feel bad if someone whines or cries after I give them a shot at a force level that every one else plays at. They need to toughen up. If not-then get off the field.
I say get the F#%& over it.
I'm going to go out and thump someone, no matter how big or small they are. Sure, I'm not going to gack some newbie who can't defend themselves. That's not nice.
But, if there is a reasonably experienced fighter who knows what he/she is getting themselves into, then let the games begin. I will probably fight them just a bit more defensively (because I don't want my ego bruised by getting beaten by a girl, frankly) and when an opening comes available, they're going to get thumped. If they shuck it-then they get what they deserve.
I'm not going to feel bad if someone whines or cries after I give them a shot at a force level that every one else plays at. They need to toughen up. If not-then get off the field.
My point is that my lady has never asked anyone to change their force level. She gets hit as hard or as light as the opponent she is fighting throws. But she knew walking in that some people throw HARD and dealt with that accordingly.
If someone wants to throw lighter against her (or anyone else for that matter)...so be it, all they have to do is ask for a calibration before the bout begins. The two fighters can work out a force level between themselves. It is a game after all.
If someone wants to throw lighter against her (or anyone else for that matter)...so be it, all they have to do is ask for a calibration before the bout begins. The two fighters can work out a force level between themselves. It is a game after all.
-
Morgan
- Archive Member
- Posts: 18233
- Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Dallas, TX (Ansteorra)
- Contact:
Close, but not quite. We can tell them what to do all we want and we don't infringe on their rights. 
When we PHYSICALLY STOP THEM, we've crossed a line.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by mavrikii:
<B> It is a free country, when we tell people they cannot do something, we would be breaking their rights. Everyone (of age)should have the opportunity to fight if they so choose.
Mav</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
When we PHYSICALLY STOP THEM, we've crossed a line. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by mavrikii:
<B> It is a free country, when we tell people they cannot do something, we would be breaking their rights. Everyone (of age)should have the opportunity to fight if they so choose.
Mav</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>